"Most Successful" vs "Best"

[bajo39 0]

Agree 100% with your appreciation, Bajo. Also, Dribbler's post left me thinking that we could work on some simple guidelines for comparing drivers trying to diminish biasing as much as possible (I know it can't be totally eliminated) As a matter of fact, I watched the Interlagos Grand Prix once again and i was amazed at how distorted my recall of MS performance was. I did not recall the true fight he posed to make his way up to 4th. I recalled his mistakes, though. Memory is a tricky thing. It is not enough to make me switch from FA to MS, mind you but still...

Cavallino, you deserve a longer reply, sorry. But I am still trying to find where I said my approach was "objective". I am an Alonso fan!!!! Biased as it was, was more moderate than yours, I am sorry to say.

Re Ferrari and Karthikeyan, Cavallino is biased to the point that he only serves to humour

As to the rest of your post - I agree. Far too few of our members are able to draw unbiased conclusions as to driver performance. Luckily, I am here to offer up the truth on such matters

[james 0]

Sorry, welcome to the forum

Now, as to your post - I know precisely which unreliability you were referring to in the previous but it does not make any difference. Neither does the relatively reliability or unreliability of the Renault versus the Ferrari over the past couple years...

You see, mechanical failure is a part of Formula 1 as indeed it is a part of all autoracing that I know of but setting that aside for the moment, my point is simply that if you wish to adjust for reliability in answering question of who deserved what, you must do so on an equal basis to get an unbiased result. If you want to say that Michael would have won in Brazil and Japan if not for unreliability, please also make a similar allowance for Alonso in Hungary and Italy. That is all.

Thanks for the welcome and the insight on this issue. I have to admit that my bias on the issue is probably due to the fact that I still feel a little dejected that Michael wasn't able to get his eight championship before he retired, but what can you do. I understand where you are coming from and applaud you on a point well made.

[bajo39 0]

Thanks for the welcome and the insight on this issue. I have to admit that my bias on the issue is probably due to the fact that I still feel a little dejected that Michael wasn't able to get his eight championship before he retired, but what can you do. I understand where you are coming from and applaud you on a point well made.

I too was saddened by the less than poetic finish to what was a glorious career... I suppose it was the Japanese GP, where Michael put on a brave face where others with less at stake could not, that won me over. He's done a lot to tarnish his legacy in the past but the class he demonstrated in his two final GP will leave the greater impression on my memories of him.

[F1 FANatic 1]

It's not that simple. On the face of it, yes, Michael probably would have won the Japanese GP and possibly even the Brazilian GP with illegal team orders had his equipment survived. However, Michael would not have been in such a position were it not for the unreliability that Alonso also suffered, in Hungary and Italy. It is therefore unfair to say that Schumacher was robbed of his 8th WDC by unreliability. If you're going to go back and give Michael the benefit of reliability in determining what he deserved, why does Alonso not deserve the same consideration? You see, there is no basis to suggest that Michael deserved the WDC; he did not.

the reason I am giving it to Michael is because for the first time in 6 years, that means since 2000, a ferrari engin has blown up in a Ferrari. Sure FA's did go Kablamoo, but no other team can come close to saying that they have been bulletproof with engin releability. I cheacked, the closest any other team has come is 2 years. For a Ferrari engin to give out is a one in a million chance and had that not happened MS would be Champ. A ferrari engin failure a freak occurance only witnessed ever blue moon so thats why Im saying he would have been WDC

im also only refering to the Japanese GP at which point they were equal in points. And yes, had MS won I bet renault fans would say the same, the fact is though, MS didnt win so here we are.

and about the team orders, Massa himself had said he would help MS win the title at all costs and that since the begining of the season, MS is Massa's idol and I dont think team orders would have been neded, massa would have moved over by himself. And had MS won in Japan he would only have needed to finish ahead of Alonso, something that, as we saw, would not have been difficult to do.

[kenneth 0]

Its very strange and funny how MS fan always discuss about him ....they always mentioned records facts figures etc...but they never mention other facts like i always said ....for me too MS is not the best ever ...his one of the best but for me no.....

the other facts are when MS fought it all out with drivers like DH, JV, MH and now FA he lost from 2000 to 2004 when ferrari where among everyone with MS on board with all his experience and with F1 going to much into rookies ....he had very simple to achieve what he achieve when drivers such KR and FA wehre getting experience and speed he lost ....

2003 or 04 don't remeber ecxaclty if the stewards didn't**** JPM race at indianapolis he will get lost even that one so yes his great cos all of his years he was alwyas fighting on top but not the greatesst .,

and i will say that Senna is the greatest cos senna drove really against the best such Prost . Mansell, piquet etc... i'm not saying Fa and Kr are not good or even JB but they were to younbg to fight his talent and experience together .

so considering all this he can't be the best for me.....

[tifosi too! 0]

It's not that simple. On the face of it, yes, Michael probably would have won the Japanese GP and possibly even the Brazilian GP with illegal team orders had his equipment survived. However, Michael would not have been in such a position were it not for the unreliability that Alonso also suffered, in Hungary and Italy. It is therefore unfair to say that Schumacher was robbed of his 8th WDC by unreliability. If you're going to go back and give Michael the benefit of reliability in determining what he deserved, why does Alonso not deserve the same consideration? You see, there is no basis to suggest that Michael deserved the WDC; he did not.

True but Alonso suffered his last failure with 4 races to go and we all saw that somehow the situation turned in his favor and there were 4 races left for him to fight the WDC.He was still leading the WDC after that.MS's failure was more catastrophic in the sense that it immediately put him out of the WDC battle with 1 race remainingHad they both blown their engines in Monza I'm quite sure MS would have won(without any other failures).

[cavallino 2]

It's not that simple. On the face of it, yes, Michael probably would have won the Japanese GP and possibly even the Brazilian GP with illegal team orders had his equipment survived.

Michael wouldn't have needed team orders if not for his problems in quali.

Cavallino, you deserve a longer reply, sorry. But I am still trying to find where I said my approach was "objective". I am an Alonso fan!!!! Biased as it was, was more moderate than yours, I am sorry to say.

Ojective doens't matter, but a lot of what you said is plain incorrect.

[vitomita 0]

Welcome mate, Hopefully you will continue to support Fernando!

Good first post By the way!!!

I just don`t understand you people that support the driver over the constractor.

I loved MS but I did not support him when he was at Benetton, and I would have not supported him if he went to anywhere else after Ferrari .

Formula 1 unlike other motor sports it is a technology race the cars that win are the best cars and not necessarly the best drivers, I think the car brings 80% of the race performance and 20% the driver.

I just can`t understand how people from supporting Renault which deserves most of the success in 2005 & 2006 will start now supporting Mclaren just because Alonso is there. The best cars win not necessarly the best Drivers, the driver does make a difference but not as much as the car.

I wish Kimi fans will show the real support to the team and stick with Mclaren and the same for Alonsos fans.

I certantly have my favorites drivers like everyone else in the order ( MS, KR, FA, MW) but I also know that this is primarly a team sport and therefore support first the Team.

There is no question that some drivers have the edge and were born for the sport and some other are good but they are not as naturally in perfect sink with Machine.

Alonso is an unbeliveble driver, almost never makes mistakes, but defenatelly does not have it like Senna Michael or KIMI, these are trully born for the sport and they show it every time and they are the ones that trully provide us with the most excitement, just look at the last performance from michael espetially the pass on Kimi, or the completely different lines for 3 consecutive turns in China to at the end have a better exit speed on the 4th turn and Pass alonso in great style.

These are drivers that will ever be forgotten for their genious drive, but most inportantly was the team it possible each one of the them workers, and Ferrari above all has shown that F1 is a team sport, where when there is success is because of the hard work of everybody when there is defeat is because of mistakes made by eeryone in the team. MS is the first one to admit that and that is why he is a true champion.

No team as the armony & atmosphere of ferrari where there is a lot of love and respect for each worker including thise who bring the mineral water to the races, that is why they are the most succesful team and most likely always will be .

I like to make a little Forecast for next year, initially Massa will be faster then Kimi, but you will see the true edge of the Driver and Ferrari & Kimi will be world Champions again.

[dribbler 6]

I too was saddened by the less than poetic finish to what was a glorious career... I suppose it was the Japanese GP, where Michael put on a brave face where others with less at stake could not, that won me over. He's done a lot to tarnish his legacy in the past but the class he demonstrated in his two final GP will leave the greater impression on my memories of him.

Well said.

[bajo39 0]

Michael wouldn't have needed team orders if not for his problems in quali.

Just keep piling on the 'ifs'... Why not suppose that Alonso never existed?

I just don`t understand you people that support the driver over the constractor.

I loved MS but I did not support him when he was at Benetton, and I would have not supported him if he went to anywhere else after Ferrari .

Bizarre.

[Autumnpuma 0]

Well said.

Sometimes this happens, where your favorite driver leaves the sport with less than a 'bang'. I went through it recently with Hakkinen. I suppose Schumacher fans should be happy that their legend is still alive. My all-time favorite driver, Gilles, we shall never see again. That was a hard blow for me. I was a 12 year old who had just started watching F1 and was in the throes of that 'hero worship' that often inflicts boys of that age. To lose that hero is tough....

Schumacher has (unlike Gilles and Senna) many racing options open to him. After his touching remarks about Mika being his greatest challenge/rival I would love to see them both fender to fender in DTM.

Bizarre.

I agree. Supporting a team is all well and good, but to me the driver is who gets it done....I will always look at the car as just a piece of machinery that allows the driver to ply his trade.

[dribbler 6]

I just don`t understand you people that support the driver over the constractor.

I used to lust over my English teacher, it didn't mean that i loved going to school.

Sometimes this happens, where your favorite driver leaves the sport with less than a 'bang'. I went through it recently with Hakkinen. I suppose Schumacher fans should be happy that their legend is still alive. My all-time favorite driver, Gilles, we shall never see again. That was a hard blow for me. I was a 12 year old who had just started watching F1 and was in the throes of that 'hero worship' that often inflicts boys of that age. To lose that hero is tough....

Schumacher has (unlike Gilles and Senna) many racing options open to him. After his touching remarks about Mika being his greatest challenge/rival I would love to see them both fender to fender in DTM.

I agree. Supporting a team is all well and good, but to me the driver is who gets it done....I will always look at the car as just a piece of machinery that allows the driver to ply his trade.

Mika certainly bowed out quietly, i wish he hadn't given his podium away. You're right too, i feel happy that Michael has left intact, i think it a tragedy that my other hero, Ayrton was not so fortunate. I totally empathize with how you felt about Gilles.

Mika v's Michael in DTM? Er, yes please!!

[bajo39 0]

I agree. Supporting a team is all well and good, but to me the driver is who gets it done....I will always look at the car as just a piece of machinery that allows the driver to ply his trade.

Same.

Out of interest, what did you find compelling about Mika? He wasn't the most daring driver, certainly not in the same vein as the legendary Gilles Villeneuve.

[Quiet One 15]

I used to lust over my English teacher, it didn't mean that i loved going to school.

That about sums up what I thought when I read that post (except the English teacher part, mine was Spanish and an old hag)

Out of interest, what did you find compelling about Mika? He wasn't the most daring driver, certainly not in the same vein as the legendary Gilles Villeneuve.

Having been a fan of both Ayrton and Gilles when both died, I will never understand all the people that now says "Now that MS left I will no longer watch F1"...gee I am glad I didn't quit when Gilles died. And I agree with Bajo too, never understood where was the magic in Mika's driving.

What about Schumi, Montoya AND Villeneuve in NASCAR?

[dribbler 6]

Same.

Out of interest, what did you find compelling about Mika? He wasn't the most daring driver, certainly not in the same vein as the legendary Gilles Villeneuve.

Can't speak for Mike but i loved his understatedness (if that's a word) out of the car, compared to his great raw speed and skill in the car. I believe he was significantly faster than Michael over a lap (if not over a race). He also had balls. Gilles was unashamedly daring. Too daring maybe. Mika had soul too.

[bajo39 0]

Can't speak for Mike but i loved his understatedness (if that's a word) out of the car, compared to his great raw speed and skill in the car. I believe he was significantly faster than Michael over a lap (if not over a race). He also had balls. Gilles was unashamedly daring. Too daring maybe. Mika had soul too.

Mike had a great, if quirky, personality. As to him being daring - really?

[dribbler 6]

What about Schumi, Montoya AND Villeneuve in NASCAR?

Would you go on karts that do 3 Mph and race 5 year olds from your street? No, and Michael won't do NASCAR with JPM and Jacques.

Mike had a great, if quirky, personality. As to him being daring - really?

Not as much as Gilles, granted, but what about Spa '00?

[bajo39 0]

Not as much as Gilles, granted, but what about Spa '00?

How about, not at all? If the Belgian GP of 2000 is the best example you can come up with then you're pushing rope IMO. Mika had a way faster car and was following Michael for countless laps before falling into that move...

[Quiet One 15]

Would you go on karts that do 3 Mph and race 5 year olds from your street? No, and Michael won't do NASCAR with JPM and Jacques.

Not as much as Gilles, granted, but what about Spa '00?

The Nascar comment was a joke, albeit a lame one, I admit.

Spa '00 is the only thrill I ever had watching Mika race, as far as I recall, at least. He was very good, though, I think nobody denies that. Just not as fun to watch.

[dribbler 6]

How about, not at all? If the Belgian GP of 2000 is the best example you can come up with then you're pushing rope IMO. Mika had a way faster car and was following Michael for countless laps before falling into that move...

Spa 2000 was memorable because Mika spun out of Eau Rouge whilst leading, fell behind significantly and than put in a great come back to pull 'that' move. Whilst the red wine i am currently enjoying disallows me from recalling more memorable occasions of Mika's prowess, i'll concede; he had nothinhgon Gilles.

I still believe that Mika was a class act. He had resolve and guts. Not specific and only my opinon, but i'm a little p**sed and i'm rocking to some amazing Frank Zappa.

[Autumnpuma 0]

Mika was always either 'on' or 'off' and he was very seldom 'off'. He, like Gilles, would push the car to 100% with total comittment and total lack of fear.

Spa is the most popular example of Mika's fearlessness. A superior car is one thing, but that move of his was spur of the moment thinking without thinking of the consequences. He just jinked right with his foot completely planted and made the move. No hesitation, no second-thoughts.

Another example of his fearlessness would be his response to the Schumacher-chop. Mika often would be pushed onto the grass by Michael, but did he slow down? No, he kept his foot planted and chased Michael down; sometimes pulling off the lead after coming back onto the asphalt.

A mild example of his speed would be how he constantly hauled the horrible McLaren/Peugeot up to better results than it deserved. A greater example would be his outqualifying Senna in his first outing with the team. Certainly this is worthy to note when talking about his speed. There was also Indy, 2001, where his car was clearly inferior to the Ferrari, but saw him hunt down Michael in the closing stages, eating up Michael's lead like a fat man eats sausages.

I will always remember the legendary qualifying battles between the two Mikes. Michael would go out and set the pole lap. Then Mika would better it. On and on they would go until the timer ran out. Mesmerising.

How good was Mika? We all know that Michael has an extremely fast way of driving. He actually accellerates at the apex, steadying the car with the brakes. This gives him 1-3 tenths advantage on exit. Mika drove more conventionally but still managed to match, and even better, Michael. Part of this was his very smooth line. Mika would straighten out the road, using every inch of asphalt, more than any other driver.

A final note: In F1 Racing, DC was asked if he thought Kimi was faster than Mika. DC responded that "I've seen both of their telemetry and I don't remember ever saying 'wow' after looking at Kimi's..." The unspoken implication is quite telling, to me at least.

[dribbler 6]

[quote name='Autumnpuma' post='149809' date='Oct 26 2006, 11:22 PM']Mika was always either 'on' or 'off' and he was very seldom 'off'. He, like Gilles, would push the car to 100% with total comittment and total lack of fear.

Spa is the most popular example of Mika's fearlessness. A superior car is one thing, but that move of his was spur of the moment thinking without thinking of the consequences. He just jinked right with his foot completely planted and made the move. No hesitation, no second-thoughts.

Another example of his fearlessness would be his response to the Schumacher-chop. Mika often would be pushed onto the grass by Michael, but did he slow down? No, he kept his foot planted and chased Michael down; sometimes pulling off the lead after coming back onto the asphalt.

A mild example of his speed would be how he constantly hauled the horrible McLaren/Peugeot up to better results than it deserved. A greater example would be his outqualifying Senna in his first outing with the team. Certainly this is worthy to note when talking about his speed. There was also Indy, 2001, where his car was clearly inferior to the Ferrari, but saw him hunt down Michael in the closing stages, eating up Michael's lead like a fat man eats sausages.

I will always remember the legendary qualifying battles between the two Mikes. Michael would go out and set the pole lap. Then Mika would better it. On and on they would go until the timer ran out. Mesmerising.

How good was Mika? We all know that Michael has an extremely fast way of driving. He actually accellerates at the apex, steadying the car with the brakes. This gives him 1-3 tenths advantage on exit. Mika drove more conventionally but still managed to match, and even better, Michael. Part of this was his very smooth line. Mika would straighten out the road, using every inch of asphalt, more than any other driver.

A final note: In F1 Racing, DC was asked if he thought Kimi was faster than Mika. DC responded that "I've seen both of their telemetry and I don't remember ever saying 'wow' after looking at Kimi's..." The unspoken implication is quite telling, to me at least.[/quote]

Great stuff Mike. Yeah, your recollection of the quali' battles brought back some memories, namely Suzuka 2000. I remeber there being a non stop raising of the bar. Michael and Mika were in a league of their own, going quicker by sometimes only half a tenth, Mika i believe finally getting the pole, quite incredible.

The occasion of Mika out qualifying ayrton on his first outing is obviously quite a famous incident, but for me more worthy of mention is Adelaide '95. It does nothing to silence or convince bajo of Mika's speed but demonstrares his fearlessness. To come back relentlessly from such a life threatening incident was impessive indeed. Herbert lost maybe 2or 3 tenths from his '88 smash. Mika lost nothing.