JV (FA) vs MS (KR)

[monza gorilla 1]

I generally agree with that, although Collins volunteered his car for Fangio.

[pabloh20 1]

Pretty hard to pass a person who isn't your teammate for the lead when you start second and your teammate is first and i also don't get this notion of of cheating and team orders. Fangio had his team mate give him his car after Fangio's car died in the pits just so Fangio could win the race. Sterling Moss did the same thing in 57 in Britain though Moss didnt win. Most people tend to forget that team orders were the most common thing in F1 until RB pulled that stunt on the A1 ring. Just look at DC giving up his P1 to Mika in 98 in Australia.

And about cheating, Senna crashed into Prost on two consecutive years in the same corner to try and win the championship, the first time he was given the free pass, the second time he was DQed from the race and lost the WDC. You all tend to see the world through, well i cant say rose, so ill say baby blue glasses. F1 isn't about the team who pulls of the least dirty tricks in a season, its about the team that pulls off the most dirty tricks in a season and get away with it.

Honda lost out last year when they were discovered. Ferrari lost out a 5 or 6 years ago when they were running wings 5mm shorter then the minimum allowed. In the 70's and 80's you'd be hard pressed to find a team that didn't try something funny. Todays "fans" have been weakened by the new Political correctness revolution and have lost sight of the picture, wining at all costs. you might not agree, but then don't call yourself a fan or Formula one before the 21st century.

If you want to see some goo' clea' racin' by them good ol' boys go watch NASCAR. Formula one isn't a sport for the weak of mind or conviction, the saying holds true here the most, Step up or go home!

Oh, and don't forget, i find that what Renault did this year in regards to JV and all the other BS they pulled acceptable, what i don't find ok is to whine when they get hit with the same penalties they wanted for others.

Yep, completely agree.

I generally agree with that, although Collins volunteered his car for Fangio.

Didn't he also help Hawthorn in a couple of races so that Hawthorn could win the WDC?

[Shane2 0]

Pretty hard to pass a person who isn't your teammate for the lead when you start second and your teammate is first and i also don't get this notion of of cheating and team orders. Fangio had his team mate give him his car after Fangio's car died in the pits just so Fangio could win the race. Sterling Moss did the same thing in 57 in Britain though Moss didnt win. Most people tend to forget that team orders were the most common thing in F1 until RB pulled that stunt on the A1 ring. Just look at DC giving up his P1 to Mika in 98 in Australia.

And about cheating, Senna crashed into Prost on two consecutive years in the same corner to try and win the championship, the first time he was given the free pass, the second time he was DQed from the race and lost the WDC. You all tend to see the world through, well i cant say rose, so ill say baby blue glasses. F1 isn't about the team who pulls of the least dirty tricks in a season, its about the team that pulls off the most dirty tricks in a season and get away with it.

Honda lost out last year when they were discovered. Ferrari lost out a 5 or 6 years ago when they were running wings 5mm shorter then the minimum allowed. In the 70's and 80's you'd be hard pressed to find a team that didn't try something funny. Todays "fans" have been weakened by the new Political correctness revolution and have lost sight of the picture, wining at all costs. you might not agree, but then don't call yourself a fan or Formula one before the 21st century.

If you want to see some goo' clea' racin' by them good ol' boys go watch NASCAR. Formula one isn't a sport for the weak of mind or conviction, the saying holds true here the most, Step up or go home!

Oh, and don't forget, i find that what Renault did this year in regards to JV and all the other BS they pulled acceptable, what i don't find ok is to whine when they get hit with the same penalties they wanted for others.

Yes i quiet agree with that, the point you have to consider is that Senna actually admitted that he would do it before the race, and he admitted that he had done it deliberately after the race. I will not defend him, i think for a man of his outstanding natural talent it is an ignominius way, to say the least, to win a world championship, and although, again i am not trying to justify the actions, but Prost did also do it to him to win a championship. As for Fangio i am pretty sure if the history books are correct that Collins gave his car up for Fangio of his own free will, believing that he had plenty more chances to win (sadly he didn't, he died the next year).

As for the Australian GP in 1998, i think if i remember correctly the agreement between Coulthard and Hakkinen was that whoever got to the first corner first would win. Maybe they are covering up team orders, it will be impossible to find out for certain, but it sounds to me as if Coulthard was honoring an agreement. Yes, i agree other teams have tried to bend the rules, it just irritates me the way ferrari run their races to deliberately impede other drivers, i feel it ruins the spectacle of the sport (The worst case i can remember was having Irvine going 2s per lap off what he was capable of so that golden boy could get away at the front). As for the penalty for Honda, i felt that was in general terms unjust. I know it was a bit of a black area in the rules, but using fuel as ballast the car was technically not a lot lighter than it would otherwise have been. Stripping the points from the race, yep that was fair, however i felt the 2 race ban issued to them was rather harsh.

As for the thing with Renault and JV... I would like to see a clip if possible. I cannot comment on that as i didn't see it, the TV cameras i dont recall picking it up. On the basis of the Monza penalty alone, i do feel, and always have felt that it was immensly harsh, and i still Do, and i would say the same thing whether it had been levied against Schumacher, Alonso, or someone at the rear of the field.

[cavallino 2]

[quote name='Shane2' post='153428' date='Nov 7 2006, 11:34 PM']Yes i quiet agree with that, the point you have to consider is that Senna actually admitted that he would do it before the race, and he admitted that he had done it deliberately after the race.[/quote]

Not after the race, much later. And he got away with it, shame.


[quote]As for Fangio i am pretty sure if the history books are correct that Collins gave his car up for Fangio of his own free will, believing that he had plenty more chances to win (sadly he didn't, he died the next year).[/quote]Yeswhereas Rubens was coerced under the threat of torture I presume?


[quote]As for the Australian GP in 1998, i think if i remember correctly the agreement between Coulthard and Hakkinen was that whoever got to the first corner first would win.[/quote]

No. Coulthard said in 2005 after leaving Mclaren that he was forced.


[quote]Maybe they are covering up team orders, it will be impossible to find out for certain,[/quote]It is possible, DC said it.


[quote]Yes, i agree other teams have tried to bend the rules, it just irritates me the way ferrari run their races to deliberately impede other drivers[/quote]

Bollocks. When have Ferrari done that recently, unlike Renault and Mclaren?

[quote](The worst case i can remember was having Irvine going 2s per lap off what he was capable of so that golden boy could get away at the front).[/quote]The worst case I can remember is Fisichella giving up 2 positions so that Alonso could gete one at Hockenheim. Or his blocking tactics at China.


[quote]As for the thing with Renault and JV... I would like to see a clip if possible. I cannot comment on that as i didn't see it, the TV cameras i dont recall picking it up. On the basis of the Monza penalty alone, i do feel, and always have felt that it was immensly harsh, and i still Do, and i would say the same thing whether it had been levied against Schumacher, Alonso, or someone at the rear of the field.[/quote]


The problem is you club it with the accusation that the title was being rigged - which in the circumstances is completely ridiculous.

[Shane2 0]

Almost as rediculous as your claim that Alonso was trying to cheat by running into a tyre? right? i think this is clearly a case of the dog trying to call the pig dirty. And no, Rubens was coerced by ross brawn coming on the radio saying "Move over and let Michael win", the poor sap like everyone else who drove for ferrari had the standard "You must move over for our golden boy" clause in his contract.

When have ferrari done that recently? Errrrm... What about their Flexi-Wings, what about their dodgy rear break ducts?. I don't know where you are pulling the other crap from because McLaren i have never seen operate a deliberate Go-Slow to allow other drivers to get away. As for Fisichella in China, Alonso distinctly said after the race that Fisi was actually trying to get past him, and that he re-passed him into the final corner. Kinda proven by the fact that Fisi actually got past the next lap. Oh yeah i forgot, alonso is gonna gain a lot by deliberately going slow when he knows Schumacher is catching him at a fast rate of knots. Yep. Quiet obvious team play there

I don't see what basis you have to slag Senna off, he was never even really direct competition for Schumacher, and not only that he was the most talented driver to ever grace the sport, and yes, he got away with it, as did prost the previous season, as did Mansell for taking him out the season after. The rules where much more lax then, and that was, in part why they where tightned.

Yep it was a pretty Acrimonious way to win a title, but i still believe that Senna was the best, he had talent Michael could only dream of, and he was actually able to win races without any of his team mates having a deferring cause in their contracts, and he could overtake

[dribbler 6]

This thread makes about as much sense as trying to fly to Venus on a spoon.

[kenneth 0]

This thread makes about as much sense as trying to fly to Venus on a spoon.

because your intelligence is equal to 0 dioesn't mean we are all like you....all i want it to say is once JV has suggested FA to briatore and he sign him and now MS had suggested KR to JT so those years there were to uch debate between MS fans and JV fans , so all i said is that debate between those to pair of fans gonna continue ....but this time between FA and i'm thinking that maybe all JV gonna support him now and those os MS gonna support KR cos MS suggested KR and his going to ferrari too..

that's all if this for you doesn't make sense your free to your intelligence.....

[dribbler 6]

because your intelligence is equal to 0 dioesn't mean we are all like you....all i want it to say is once JV has suggested FA to briatore and he sign him and now MS had suggested KR to JT so those years there were to uch debate between MS fans and JV fans , so all i said is that debate between those to pair of fans gonna continue ....but this time between FA and i'm thinking that maybe all JV gonna support him now and those os MS gonna support KR cos MS suggested KR and his going to ferrari too..

that's all if this for you doesn't make sense your free to your intelligence.....

Clearly the spoon didn't work for you. Try a fork maybe?

[kenneth 0]

Clearly the spoon didn't work for you. Try a fork maybe?

i can try your sister what you think??????

[cavallino 2]

Almost as rediculous as your claim that Alonso was trying to cheat by running into a tyre? right?

For once and for all, I did not say that. He either deliberately ignored yellow flags or he wasn't paying attention - considering that the safety car had been called and drivers both before and after him saw them, it was probably theformer. I don't know why he did it, that doens't matter. It was dangerous, and I bleieve he should have been penalised, just like Mika Hakkinen should have been a few years ago in Monaco when he got pole and the fastest sector under a yellow flag iirc. If you can find such an incident with a Ferrari driver involved by all means apply the same principle. But please try to debate like an adult, not like a kid, misrepresenting positions, hurling personal remarks and giving incorrect facts.

i think this is clearly a case of the dog trying to call the pig dirty. And no, Rubens was coerced by ross brawn coming on the radio saying "Move over and let Michael win", the poor sap like everyone else who drove for ferrari had the standard "You must move over for our golden boy" clause in his contract.

Now this is uttere hypocrisy, you accuse Ferrari of using team orders, yet you are ok with other teams doing it? What about Senna and Berger in Suzuka 91? What about Jerez 97 - the collusion between two teams to fix a race, Australia 1998.

If you want DC's view after he left Mclaren, read this - http://www.totalf1.com/forums/index.php?sh...mp;hl=coulthard

McLaren i have never seen operate a deliberate Go-Slow to allow other drivers to get away.

You are just ignorant then. Coulthard, Indy 2000 - http://atlasf1.autosport.com/2000/usa/barnes.html

Spa 2005 where Mclaren held up the grid to make sure they didn't lose time in the pits for both their drivers when the safety car came out - if that isn't blocking I odn't know what is. China 2005 where Flavio admitted he asked Fisi to block? Really I could be here all day, but I think I've made my point.

As for Fisichella in China, Alonso distinctly said after the race that Fisi was actually trying to get past him, and that he re-passed him into the final corner.

I think the video is clear. What about Hockenheim where Fisi despite being faster stayed behind Alonso and blocked drivers from going past?

I don't see what basis you have to slag Senna off, he was never even really direct competition for Schumacher, and not only that he was the most talented driver to ever grace the sport, and yes, he got away with it, as did prost the previous season, as did Mansell for taking him out the season after. The rules where much more lax then, and that was, in part why they where tightned.

And that makes it more sporting? Makes Mansell driving around for 4 laps after being black flagged and ruining Senna's championship chances by running him off more sporting? Prost blocking Senna from joining Williams? Senna blocking Warwick at Lotus? Senna's involvement in a pre meditated collision - something Michael has never been guilty of? Really who is this apostle of sportsmanship who you admire so muhc, whom you measure everyone against, it isn't any driver I know of.

Your most preposterous accusation is that Michael cannot overtake, really should I dig up the overtaking stats for this year, have you ever seen him racing in the last 15 years. Seriously why do I bother replying to something som completely mind blowingly stupid - carry on believing that if you want to. I don't give a damn, to anyone who has even jsut seen this season the utter ludicrousness of that statement.

[Shane2 0]

nice speech *hands cookie*

Senna and Berger suzuka 91... haven't seen it

Jerez 97... i do not really know exactly what went on there. If it was fixed, then it was bad on williams and McLaren. I always thought dodgy went on, but i am being completely honest when i say i did not know exactly what. If it was fixed, i am disappointed in McLaren and Williams for doing it.

Australia 98... Yep i agree with you on that one i saw no need for Coulthard to move over, it was unfair, and i disagree with what McLaren did. The only reason i am so aghast at what ferrari did was because Rubens deserved to win that race, michael did not. And switching drivers on the finishing line is about the worst PR howler you could pull. McLaren came under fire for Australia 98 and rightly so.

Again... i can only comment on footage i have seen, and i did not see the 2000 US GP, if McLaren did employ those tactics it did not work out really too well, as neither of their cars finished on the Podium.

I never said Michael *cannot* overtake, i said he rarely does, because normally his only threat with the massive car advantage he had for 5 years was from his team mate, and as his team mates where forced to defer to him, they wernt really competition either.

I have actually said that what mansell did was unfair. I have also said that What prost did to senna on the track, and what senna did to prost on the track was also unnecessary. As i was only 9 at the time Senna died, i am afraid things like those backroom squabbles like people blocking each other's team moves have escaped me, but no i do not believe they where fair.

Yep i have said that Senna did that unnecessarily, but he at least owned up to it, he did not sit there telling total lies to everyone with a sheepish look on his face that gave away his guilt.

[cavallino 2]

Senna and Berger suzuka 91... haven't seen it

Google/ youtuber - ignorance is no excuse, either you accept my version or you counter it.

Jerez 97... i do not really know exactly what went on there. If it was fixed, then it was bad on williams and McLaren. I always thought dodgy went on, but i am being completely honest when i say i did not know exactly what. If it was fixed, i am disappointed in McLaren and Williams for doing it.

http://www.totalf1.com/forums/index.php?sh...ic=7045&hl=

Again... i can only comment on footage i have seen, and i did not see the 2000 US GP, if McLaren did employ those tactics it did not work out really too well, as neither of their cars finished on the Podium.

For someone who brandishes statements like "most unsporting in the history of the sport" "destroyed the sport" "most talented ever" you have rather limited awareness I must say.

I never said Michael *cannot* overtake, i said he rarely does, because normally his only threat with the massive car advantage he had for 5 years was from his team mate, and as his team mates where forced to defer to him, they wernt really competition either.

Blinkered, and completely incolrrect, look at 2006 and tell me which driver has done the most overtaking.

Yep i have said that Senna did that unnecessarily, but he at least owned up to it, he did not sit there telling total lies to everyone with a sheepish look on his face that gave away his guilt.

He didn't own up to it until an year later - if he had done it after the race he would have been thrown out. He never apologised, he merely made a belligerent attack on Balestre with no pologies. So get a f$%king clue instead of believing everything that JV or DC tell the press. Senna did as much about Suzuka 90 as Michael did about Jerez 97. One was premeditated, one wasn't. You can argue if one crime was greater, but please for heaven's sake don't try to justify it by pretending that he apologised to the world and everyone - he didn't, far from it.

You want to know what Senna said right after winning the championship in '90, and not one year later?

http://www.grandprix.com/ft/ft00055.html

Everybody can form their own opinion on what they see and interpret these things. Of course, it is a situation that is very difficult to say, you can only judge the facts by television cameras and photographs. The input from the parties involved can help a little bit, but I believe the best way of looking at it in a rational manner is to look at the images. You get an idea of what happened and who had the responsibility.

"I didn't hit him from behind, we hit side by side. There is no logic to argue about it. This is racing. Racing is fighting.

I odn't know if he had a sheepish look on his face if you consider that relevant, but if you want to talk of lying to fans, I can think of no finer example.

Not my line, but..

Get a clue, google hands them out for free nowadays.

[dribbler 6]

i can try your sister what you think??????

I asked her. She said you have already tried to. Something about your brain being even smaller than your manhood. I thought that was a little harsh personally.

[goferrarigo 0]

kenneth and dribbler, you are you both resulting to personal remarks, take a walk outside and freshen your minds. drib if u don't like the thread dont post in it, and kenneth plz keep away from those remarks it just makes the forum a worse off place.

[Player(1) 0]

because your intelligence is equal to 0 dioesn't mean we are all like you....all i want it to say is once JV has suggested FA to briatore and he sign him and now MS had suggested KR to JT so those years there were to uch debate between MS fans and JV fans , so all i said is that debate between those to pair of fans gonna continue ....but this time between FA and i'm thinking that maybe all JV gonna support him now and those os MS gonna support KR cos MS suggested KR and his going to ferrari too..

that's all if this for you doesn't make sense your free to your intelligence.....

Can't stand JV but he's the lesser of two evil's so I won't complain.

[Shane2 0]

Google/ youtuber - ignorance is no excuse, either you accept my version or you counter it.

For someone who brandishes statements like "most unsporting in the history of the sport" "destroyed the sport" "most talented ever" you have rather limited awareness I must say.

Blinkered, and completely incolrrect, look at 2006 and tell me which driver has done the most overtaking.

He didn't own up to it until an year later - if he had done it after the race he would have been thrown out. He never apologised, he merely made a belligerent attack on Balestre with no pologies. So get a f$%king clue instead of believing everything that JV or DC tell the press. Senna did as much about Suzuka 90 as Michael did about Jerez 97. One was premeditated, one wasn't. You can argue if one crime was greater, but please for heaven's sake don't try to justify it by pretending that he apologised to the world and everyone - he didn't, far from it.

You want to know what Senna said right after winning the championship in '90, and not one year later?

http://www.grandprix.com/ft/ft00055.html

I odn't know if he had a sheepish look on his face if you consider that relevant, but if you want to talk of lying to fans, I can think of no finer example.

Not my line, but..

Get a clue, google hands them out for free nowadays.

Oh yeah... IT WAS POSTED BY YOU very connemdable source.

And if the video is on youtube and is there for everyone to see, why not post links? I was referring to the team dealings anyway i know Senna took prost out and i don't care because prost did it to him the season before. None of Michael's victims did anything to him. And i don't care what JV said to the press. I have the footage on my hard disk, and the onboard cameras made it quiet clear that he deliberately turned in on JV without needing to hear anything said by him, williams, or the press. If it was innocent why was MS disqualified from the results? oh yeah, i forgot the FIA always pick on him don't they

What is more amusing, however, is that you try and dispell what i post then post things that are equally retarded yourself.

Having read that article, yes, maybe Ayrton did not admit he did straight away, but ask yourself will MS EVER admit that he did Jerez 97, Adelaide 94 or Monaco 06 deliberately? no.

Get me a link that is not posted by you, that backs your McLaren/Williams story up then maybe i will believe it.

[dribbler 6]

kenneth and dribbler, you are you both resulting to personal remarks, take a walk outside and freshen your minds. drib if u don't like the thread dont post in it, and kenneth plz keep away from those remarks it just makes the forum a worse off place.

I don't remeber you being appointed as a member of the Forum police, but i hear you.

[cavallino 2]

Oh yeah... IT WAS POSTED BY YOU very connemdable source.

And if the video is on youtube and is there for everyone to see, why not post links? I was referring to the team dealings anyway i know Senna took prost out and i don't care because prost did it to him the season before. None of Michael's victims did anything to him. And i don't care what JV said to the press. I have the footage on my hard disk, and the onboard cameras made it quiet clear that he deliberately turned in on JV without needing to hear anything said by him, williams, or the press. If it was innocent why was MS disqualified from the results? oh yeah, i forgot the FIA always pick on him don't they

What is more amusing, however, is that you try and dispell what i post then post things that are equally retarded yourself.

Having read that article, yes, maybe Ayrton did not admit he did straight away, but ask yourself will MS EVER admit that he did Jerez 97, Adelaide 94 or Monaco 06 deliberately? no.

Get me a link that is not posted by you, that backs your McLaren/Williams story up then maybe i will believe it.

See that is the point, I cannot prove anything irrevocably, for all you know I rigged the whole internet. The radio transcripts are real, they appeared in the Times, you can goto racefax.com, get a free trial subscription and read them. But it is pointless to have a discussion when I have to waste time justifying correct facts and to have to do it repeatedly, you don't take my word for something, then it's not woerth having the discussion.

[Shane2 0]

Well why should i take your word for it? after all you have provided no proof whatsoever, and as you have shown yourself to be a slanted Schumacher fan i think proof is necessary.

I am still waiting to see the video on Youtube

[cavallino 2]

Sorry I am not going to do your google searching for you. Contradict me with facts, not by calling me a liar.

[Shane2 0]

You are actually claiming me to be the liar you state facts that come from nowhere but your own mouth, i think the burden of the proof rests on you, not me. If the video is on youtube, then why can't you just link me to it (thats assuming your not just talking out your arse as usual)

[cavallino 2]

Refusing to do a 3 word search on youtube is a very lame reason for stalling an argument, and reason for me to believe that if I reply to that, you'll jsut find another. If you did want to address the question, oyu would see the video, compare it to Monza and then make your point - that is if you wanted to have a real debate instead of stalling and diverting.

[Shane2 0]

I am not stalling for anything. I have asked you several times to give me the video. You refuse every time yet I Am the one that is stalling?

I see being stubborn is a great way to silence me and prove yourself to be in the right

[Vinsane 0]

you don't take my word for something, then it's not woerth having the discussion

The great Cav strikes again... and the great Cav said: "Lo, behold my infinite repository of fact - for all that I shall utter is fact itself and whosoever shall dispute such truths as are clearly evident, upon him I shall strike down with free-flowing paragraphs of camouflaged hodge-podge and opinionated supposition so as to blind him to my underlying childish detest of all that is un-Tifosi"

Shane - good on you mate.

[cavallino 2]

I am not stalling for anything. I have asked you several times to give me the video. You refuse every time yet I Am the one that is stalling?

I see being stubborn is a great way to silence me and prove yourself to be in the right

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdzJ-RsQMa4

You can see Senna pulling over for Berger at the last corner.

Is there anything else you want to question?

Oh and Mansell did the same for Patrese the next year in the same race.

Now we can do the whole thing all over again or you can do a google search to know that I am not lying...