Jenson Button

[Jem of the Shire 0]

In fact the more I think about it the more I'm warming to the fact that if asked to vote I would say Jenson is the third best driver at this very moment.

well i really did think that most people saw him as top 3, i was obviously wrong, but then i didnt anticipate someone like Massa being seen as above JB

[aussief1 4]

well i really did think that most people saw him as top 3, i was obviously wrong, but then i didnt anticipate someone like Massa being seen as above JB

Yeah I was surprised that Massa's name was floated as the third best driver aswell.

It's not something that we have been asked to think about so thats why we are all a little stumped when asked for our opinion on the best three after so long of having MS, FA & KR and then we had the second division drivers where JB was the pick of that crop.

[Max Mosley 2]

A poll on here is always risky. That'll teach you for trusting democracy.

[Player(1) 0]

Just had a thought. If Button is not in the top 3, then who are those 3? It seems that Kimi and the eyebrow monster are a popular choice for 1 and 2, but what about the number 3?

If anyone says Massa I'll fall off my chair............

And what criteria do you use to come up with these rankings? Steve put it best in the other thread on this subject.

I say Massa because he showed he can be consistant enough in a race to win a race and had the raw speed to beat Schumacher. If you truely believe the driver's can only be compared to their teammates then how can you deny Massa having to back off to help Schumacher so much in the 2nd half of 2006 on his debut for Ferrari?

[monza gorilla 1]

I say Massa because he showed he can be consistant enough in a race to win a race and had the raw speed to beat Schumacher. If you truely believe the driver's can only be compared to their teammates then how can you deny Massa having to back off to help Schumacher so much in the 2nd half of 2006 on his debut for Ferrari?

So would you have said Rubens if he was still at Ferrari? I don't think Massa is the complete article. Not yet.

[Sato 0]

I haven't noticed anyone mention that he can't defend for s##t.... Look at Alonso and Scumacher, both can defend their position from faster cars for atleast some period of time.

[narain fan 0]

Ok, this brings us around to the how and why and is going to be an interesting exercise if anyone cares to participate. F1Fanatic, please tell us the differences between thedriving of Prost and the driving of Button. And then tell us how we all knew that Mika was destined for great things. And then tell us what were the plenty of chances to win that Button had. And remember that if you present things as fact then people will want to see the evidence. All in all not one of your better posts.

out of the closet oi oi oi

all hail the new est buttonite

[narain fan 0]

Ok, this brings us around to the how and why and is going to be an interesting exercise if anyone cares to participate. F1Fanatic, please tell us the differences between thedriving of Prost and the driving of Button. And then tell us how we all knew that Mika was destined for great things. And then tell us what were the plenty of chances to win that Button had. And remember that if you present things as fact then people will want to see the evidence. All in all not one of your better posts.

out of the closet . oi oi oi

all hail the new est buttonite

[Shane2 0]

105 gp's? was it 2003 or 2004 he had the 2nd best car on the grid....can't deny thats bad

Not when you consider the fastest car on the grid in 2004 won all but 4 of that season's races, scores double the points of BAR, and where a pretty large chunk faster than anyone else. I don't feel button is overrated but i wouldn't consider him top 3 yet he still has a lot to prove.

[monza gorilla 1]

out of the closet . oi oi oi

all hail the new est buttonite

I was just trying to point out what a futile exercise this comparison thing is. The reason for my asking the questions was to highlight that fact. There are too many variables to make anything other than a purely subjective judgement. It also irks me to see groundless statements.

[dribbler 6]

No you just have to use the results intelligently. Kimi was beaten in both his first two years but few would say NH and DC were even as good as him now. I think it's obvious to anyone with an open mind that more recent results count more than older results, especially someone's first two years in F1, when assessing someone's present performance. However by most people's reckoning, including all the senior people at Williams, JB had an extremely impressive rookie year. That leaves one year where by his own admission he performed extremely badly, probably because he let the fame from his impressive debut get to his head. Since then he has improved massively and realised the potential FW saw in him. This is what the stats show in any sensible interpretation.

I think you're being silly now using only the last race, but if we must be this childish, iirc JB beat RB pretty easily at the brazilian's home race. In fact I've just checked and it was 3rd place compared to 7th, with a gap of more than 21s between them. Again that's comparable to what Schumacher managed with the help of team orders.

Brilliantly put.

I'm of the opinion that a third best driver has yet to be established in the AS* era. The 2007 season should deliver us an answer.

*After Schumacher

Anno Domini is dead, long live A.S!! And i totally agree, the position for number three has yet to be established and probably will be next year.

out of the closet . oi oi oi

all hail the new est buttonite

I know you're pulling MG's leg, but to be fair Button has received too much flack in my opinion. At least the jury is still out on him and there are many who are clearly and will never be any more than plodders.

[Shane2 0]

I personally feel Jenson's mistake was sticking with Honda. A lot of the bad results he gets aren't his fault, i just feel the jury has yet to deliver a full verdict on him at the moment.

[F1 FANatic 1]

Not when you consider the fastest car on the grid in 2004 won all but 4 of that season's races, scores double the points of BAR, and where a pretty large chunk faster than anyone else. I don't feel button is overrated but i wouldn't consider him top 3 yet he still has a lot to prove.

Look at what your saying. You say he had the second best car in 2004, but in the four races ferrari didnt win, he didnt either, not a good argument for his skill. If he had the second best car and was the best driver out of the rest he should have won those for races, but he didnt.

[monza gorilla 1]

How many of those 4 races did he finish?

Incidentally, where did Shane say that the BAR was the second best car?

[pabloh20 1]

Look at what your saying. You say he had the second best car in 2004, but in the four races ferrari didnt win, he didnt either, not a good argument for his skill. If he had the second best car and was the best driver out of the rest he should have won those for races, but he didnt.

I think it has been proven many times in F1 that it takes substantially more than being in the 2nd best car on the grid to win a race when the 'favourites' don't win. That's even going on the theory that he was in the 2nd best car.

[Autumnpuma 0]

Button is fast, consistent, and has improved his overtaking and blocking in the past few years. He is the one driver that I'd say could mount a championship challenge if his car is quick enough to run at the front.

[pabloh20 1]

Button is fast, consistent, and has improved his overtaking and blocking in the past few years. He is the one driver that I'd say could mount a championship challenge if his car is quick enough to run at the front.

I was really impressed with Jenson in his rookie year and was convinced I was looking at a future champion. Suffice to say, it hasn't gone as I thought it would for him, so I remain cautiously optimistic about his talents.

[Shane2 0]

Look at what your saying. You say he had the second best car in 2004, but in the four races ferrari didnt win, he didnt either, not a good argument for his skill. If he had the second best car and was the best driver out of the rest he should have won those for races, but he didnt.

Rofl read my posts properly don't paraphrase them

Monaco, he didn't really have the chance, trulli always had him covered, Brazilian GP he retired (cant remember why), and in Belgium he retired after his suspension broke (and my apologies ferrari won all but 3, not all but 4)

[Jem of the Shire 0]

I say Massa because he showed he can be consistant enough in a race to win a race and had the raw speed to beat Schumacher. If you truely believe the driver's can only be compared to their teammates then how can you deny Massa having to back off to help Schumacher so much in the 2nd half of 2006 on his debut for Ferrari?

Had to back off so much? When? I recall Japan but thats about it. I dont think Massa is as good as Jenson cos in the wet Massa appeared to struggle this year, he was a mess at Hungary. Massa won a race or 2 in what was at that point by far the fastest car and when his team-mate had troubles

I haven't noticed anyone mention that he can't defend for s##t.... Look at Alonso and Scumacher, both can defend their position from faster cars for atleast some period of time.

Got any evidence for that??? I think he defends just fine!

[Jem of the Shire 0]

Look at what your saying. You say he had the second best car in 2004, but in the four races ferrari didnt win, he didnt either, not a good argument for his skill. If he had the second best car and was the best driver out of the rest he should have won those for races, but he didnt.

dont be such a dumbass, please. Monaco, he came 2nd and was 0.5s behind trulli - how could he of got past? belgium, JB retired from the race. Brazil, JB retired from the race, both due to mechanical failures. Are u sure there were 4? I thought there were only 3 that ferrari didnt win.

You're neglecting to mention that he finished 2nd four times, and 3rd 7 times - and in all those races (except monaco) he was behind the dominant ferrari, or both of them. People like you should be ashamed to even comment on the matter with such foolish unthought rubbish!

[Shane2 0]

Yes you are right, my apologies there where only 3 races not won by ferrari. I personally agree, Button is much better at aggressive driving than defensive driving.

[Sato 0]

Got any evidence for that??? I think he defends just fine!

Imola 05, Montreal 05. Those 2 came to mind the second I read your post.

Imola he let MS pass him like he was driving a kids go-kart compared to Mchaels Ferrari. (and don't give me he was too fast crap... Alnos held him off for ages in the same race evn though he was a few seconds quicker)

Montreal, MS was gaining on him just started putting pressure on him and then wall..... (my avatar shows the end result)

[pabloh20 1]

Imola 05, Montreal 05. Those 2 came to mind the second I read your post.

Imola he let MS pass him like he was driving a kids go-kart compared to Mchaels Ferrari. (and don't give me he was too fast crap... Alnos held him off for ages in the same race evn though he was a few seconds quicker)

Montreal, MS was gaining on him just started putting pressure on him and then wall..... (my avatar shows the end result)

In another thread you mention about people not taking the cars into consideration, well how about the fact that the Renault has (and has had for quite a few years now) probably the best traction out of a corner? Would that not have a bearing on how easy/hard it is to defend? Usually the Renault gets out the corner faster than other cars, that's not even taking into consideration the reaction time between the 1st car flooring it and the following driver's reaction times.

Now I am not saying that Alonso is not good at defending, because he is, or that Jenson may have had a weakness in that area in the past, but I don't think it's quite as cut and dried as people make out.

[Sato 0]

What does traction have to do with out braking yourself, taking to much kurb and smacking into the wall?

Not to mention the Imola overtake had very little to do with traction either, Jenson just gave him the inside and let him have it. Neither of these things were traction related.

[pabloh20 1]

What does traction have to do with out braking yourself, taking to much kurb and smacking into the wall?

Not to mention the Imola overtake had very little to do with traction either, Jenson just gave him the inside and let him have it. Neither of these things were traction related.

I thought we were talking as a general weakness in defending, weren't we ? You're just referring to incidents that every driver has done at some point or another.

Having said that, if you are able to gain an advantage when going into overtaking zones by having better traction out of a corner then you might feel under less pressure by the end of the overtaking zone, which might mean you make less mistakes. I am not saying that's what happened in those instances, but like I said earlier I just don't think it's that cut and dried as you're making out.