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Poll: Was Wahada Right In Refusing To Deploy To Iraq?

Was Wahada right in refusing to Deploy to Iraq?  

15 members have voted

  1. 1. Is he justified?

    • Yes
      5
    • No
      10


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I personally feel he is wrong, very wrong. If you sign up to serve in an armed force then you should fight without question, that's the discipline. To question whether your superiors are right or wrong threatens the very nature of an army. You should unite whether you are right or wrong. All this defectious speak is indicative of the namby pamby PC world we are living in, it makes me sick.

Hmmmm...... I wonder if you would say the same thing about the officers at Abu Ghraib who followed orders to torture prisoners?

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Hmmmm...... I wonder if you would say the same thing about the officers at Abu Ghraib who followed orders to torture prisoners?

Yes, that was the angle I was coming from.......

Muhammad Ali refused the draft for Vietnam. He was ridiculed and despised at that time and yet his stance now seems to make so much sense. I just finished watching the movie 'Blood Diamond' with DiCaprio and it had me thinking again.........It was quite sickening.

I know that the strength of the army is in its discipline, but does that preclude making war like the one in Iraq. I am confused.......

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I like silver and blue. They both look smashing together on an embroidered procompsognathid.

EDIT: My keyboard didn't type in the 'y' for 'They' so I had to add it back in. Good thing, too, because my post would make no sense whatsoever without it............

With all due respect, no one held a gun to your head - you didn't have to make a post on this topic. If you didn't have anything to contribute to the topic, the least you could have done was not to trivialise it.

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I know that the strength of the army is in its discipline, but does that preclude making war like the one in Iraq. I am confused.......

Yeah it's a very complicated issue in general, when it's right to go against orders, I mean. I tried to avoid getting into that debate by saying that whatever he feels about the motivations for the war, it would be wrong for America to pull out completely tomorrow. Most (genuine) Iraqi politicians and people want them to stay for a little longer, and it seems to me also to be common sense, so imho he should have no difficulty following his orders now. Can they not give him a job training up the Iraqi forces for instance, or doing humanitarian work there? I wonder whether one can request a specific posting on "moral" grounds. He can of course register his problems with the recent decisions to go to war, and over the conduct of the war. I think he's exaggerating there too, although the US has indeed made a complete mess of the war.

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Yes, that was the angle I was coming from.......

Muhammad Ali refused the draft for Vietnam. He was ridiculed and despised at that time and yet his stance now seems to make so much sense. I just finished watching the movie 'Blood Diamond' with DiCaprio and it had me thinking again.........It was quite sickening.

I know that the strength of the army is in its discipline, but does that preclude making war like the one in Iraq. I am confused.......

There is a distinct difference, though, Mock - Muhammad Ali was a civilian who refused to be drafted into the army, he wasn't already a member of the armed forces who had already chosen that career path. We know, with hindsight, that he would only have been sent there as a token posting, if you like, sports people, etc, were generally kept well away from harm's way. However, he lost a lot for what he believed in and I admire him for taking that stand. It did indeed make him unpopular at the time, although I think in retrospect as you say, people started to think he wasn't so wrong about it after all, and he lost the best years of his career. I, for one, think he would have beaten all comers if he hadn't have been banned from boxing for 3 or 4 years.

Yeah it's a very complicated issue in general, when it's right to go against orders, I mean. I tried to avoid getting into that debate by saying that whatever he feels about the motivations for the war, it would be wrong for America to pull out completely tomorrow. Most (genuine) Iraqi politicians and people want them to stay for a little longer, and it seems to me also to be common sense, so imho he should have no difficulty following his orders now. Can they not give him a job training up the Iraqi forces for instance, or doing humanitarian work there? I wonder whether one can request a specific posting on "moral" grounds. He can of course register his problems with the recent decisions to go to war, and over the conduct of the war. I think he's exaggerating there too, although the US has indeed made a complete mess of the war.

I suppose it is a complicated issue, Murray, but part of me wonders what he thought he was signing up to when he joined the army. Was it like the early part of the 1900's for British troops, when they signed up, but never really expected to have to fight in a war? If he had joined a charity organisation that decided it would fight a war, then he would have a case, but seems he joined the armed forces, presumably not to spread charity throughout the world, then his case is weakened somewhat. However, it's his decision to make and I don't have a problem with that, but without doubt you can't have soldiers who think for themselves and question orders - or should I say, you can't if you want to win a war.

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When i was in the Navy............ah fuk it, he.s an officer He should stand a court martial and be sentanced to hard time. If he was my comanding officer I'd lose all respect...........................

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When i was in the Navy............ah fuk it, he.s an officer He should stand a court martial and be sentanced to hard time. If he was my comanding officer I'd lose all respect...........................

Perhaps we should introduce a vote to servicemen and women throughout all armies. A show of hands for those that want stay behind and peel the spuds, and those that elect to do the work asked of them when they joined in the first place?

Let's play a game of 'turn the clock back'...

Churchill at GCHQ, "Excuse me everyone, but Jerry seems to have arrived at Dover and, erm, he seems pretty intent on murdering most of us, maiming, gassing, you know - the normal run of the mill war type thing. Have you voted yet? Damned impatient blighters, but we do need to move pdq."

War Staff People, "Hang on, are there any benefits with this deal? Like better housing, more pay? Maybe a tenner for every Jerry shot, 20 quid for a plane, 50 quid for a ship? After all we didn't sign up expecting to actually do more than polish the guns y'know"

Churchill, "No. You get to protect your loved ones with your life and your sanity. And by the way, in 60 years time people will question whether you should have fought, they'll say you/we used too many bombs, that you slaughtered and carpet bombed for no reason, and most of them won't give damn for what you gave up and why you gave so freely, in fact most of them will be eating more in a day than you'll get in your weekly rashion. But time and strength is not on our side - we have to do the best we can right now and hope it's enough."

We did lots of 'wrong things'. But as soon as you point a rifle and pull the trigger, 'fair' does not exist and you have to obey without question, otherwise, with a history of giving the option NOT to do what you signed up for, what have you got left? War will always raise emotions, lead to arguments and debate on what is right or wrong but I would be surprised if we found the answer in this lifetime. Pleasantly surprised.

And yes, Bush, Blair and others maybe made the mistake of taking the wrong action at the right time. But what was the right action, if any? None of us have the answer, none of us had the information they had, it's likely we'll never know if there were other motives OR if they did, precisely what and why.

We just guess, and judge, and comment, and look like pricks to those that might not agree with what they are doing, but they obey orders and do what they've been trained to do. I would they think Wahaynoway is wrong. So do I.

What a weak willed knob I am. Swore blind I wouldn't get involved in this one...........

Apulogies fur the typo's. And it's still Blue. Any shade. ish.

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With all due respect, no one held a gun to your head - you didn't have to make a post on this topic. If you didn't have anything to contribute to the topic, the least you could have done was not to trivialise it.

Well now, as the sub-title of this thread is 'Some More Political BS??' and this topic came hot on the heels of Bruce's resolution to not engage in political threads, I thought my diversion was fitting with that whole political/non-political debate (also this came during your attempts to draw some members into a political debate in another thread, so this topic of yours seemed fair game). Many members seem to share my view, as evidenced by the fine display of de-railing of this topic by many more than just me.

However:

1) It was not meant as a personal slight against you, Mock. My humblest apologies to you if it seemed that way.

2) I have refrained from any further de-railings because quite a few members have been discussing your topic in earnest and I felt it bad form to de-rail it twice.

Carry on :)

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Perhaps we should introduce a vote to servicemen and women throughout all armies. A show of hands for those that want stay behind and peel the spuds, and those that elect to do the work asked of them when they joined in the first place?

Let's play a game of 'turn the clock back'...

Churchill at GCHQ, "Excuse me everyone, but Jerry seems to have arrived at Dover and, erm, he seems pretty intent on murdering most of us, maiming, gassing, you know - the normal run of the mill war type thing. Have you voted yet? Damned impatient blighters, but we do need to move pdq."

War Staff People, "Hang on, are there any benefits with this deal? Like better housing, more pay? Maybe a tenner for every Jerry shot, 20 quid for a plane, 50 quid for a ship? After all we didn't sign up expecting to actually do more than polish the guns y'know"

Churchill, "No. You get to protect your loved ones with your life and your sanity. And by the way, in 60 years time people will question whether you should have fought, they'll say you/we used too many bombs, that you slaughtered and carpet bombed for no reason, and most of them won't give damn for what you gave up and why you gave so freely, in fact most of them will be eating more in a day than you'll get in your weekly rashion. But time and strength is not on our side - we have to do the best we can right now and hope it's enough."

We did lots of 'wrong things'. But as soon as you point a rifle and pull the trigger, 'fair' does not exist and you have to obey without question, otherwise, with a history of giving the option NOT to do what you signed up for, what have you got left? War will always raise emotions, lead to arguments and debate on what is right or wrong but I would be surprised if we found the answer in this lifetime. Pleasantly surprised.

And yes, Bush, Blair and others maybe made the mistake of taking the wrong action at the right time. But what was the right action, if any? None of us have the answer, none of us had the information they had, it's likely we'll never know if there were other motives OR if they did, precisely what and why.

We just guess, and judge, and comment, and look like pricks to those that might not agree with what they are doing, but they obey orders and do what they've been trained to do. I would they think Wahaynoway is wrong. So do I.

What a weak willed knob I am. Swore blind I wouldn't get involved in this one...........

Apulogies fur the typo's. And it's still Blue. Any shade. ish.

I keep doing that too!! :lol:

Well now, as the sub-title of this thread is 'Some More Political BS??' and this topic came hot on the heels of Bruce's resolution to not engage in political threads, I thought my diversion was fitting with that whole political/non-political debate (also this came during your attempts to draw some members into a political debate in another thread, so this topic of yours seemed fair game). Many members seem to share my view, as evidenced by the fine display of de-railing of this topic by many more than just me.

However:

1) It was not meant as a personal slight against you, Mock. My humblest apologies to you if it seemed that way.

2) I have refrained from any further de-railings because quite a few members have been discussing your topic in earnest and I felt it bad form to de-rail it twice.

Carry on :)

It's what separates you amateurs, from us professionals!! :D

Well, there has to be some humour in the thread - keeps it from turning anti-american, anti-british, etc, etc.....

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Well now, as the sub-title of this thread is 'Some More Political BS??' and this topic came hot on the heels of Bruce's resolution to not engage in political threads, I thought my diversion was fitting with that whole political/non-political debate (also this came during your attempts to draw some members into a political debate in another thread, so this topic of yours seemed fair game). Many members seem to share my view, as evidenced by the fine display of de-railing of this topic by many more than just me.

However:

1) It was not meant as a personal slight against you, Mock. My humblest apologies to you if it seemed that way.

2) I have refrained from any further de-railings because quite a few members have been discussing your topic in earnest and I felt it bad form to de-rail it twice.

Carry on :)

I would agree entirely, word for word.

However, as Pabloh says...

"It's what separates you amateurs, from us professionals!!

Well, there has to be some humour in the thread - keeps it from turning anti-american, anti-british, etc, etc....."

.......I think that's great way to be.

Come to think about it, I've never seen a thread stay on course yet AND we never mentioned the Godforsaken 'Cricket' word :naughty:

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I would agree entirely, word for word.

However, as Pabloh says...

"It's what separates you amateurs, from us professionals!!

Well, there has to be some humour in the thread - keeps it from turning anti-american, anti-british, etc, etc....."

.......I think that's great way to be.

Come to think about it, I've never seen a thread stay on course yet AND we never mentioned the Godforsaken 'Cricket' word :naughty:

:lol:

I'm not being disrespectful to Mock or anybody, not in my nature, but I find if people can have a laugh as well as a meaningful discussion (they are not mutually exclusive after all) then the thread is all the better for it :D

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[quote name='medilloni' post='165291' date='Jan 8 2007, 01:57 PM']Come to think about it, I've never seen a thread stay on course yet AND we never mentioned the Godforsaken 'Cricket' word :naughty: [/quote]

Krikkit

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Aren't they the little insects that make that bloody awful noise and chomp the grass???

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Aren't they the little insects that make that bloody awful noise and chomp the grass???

The only 2 good things that came out of the game was Hitchhikers Guide (Krikkit?) and realising what amazing fun it can be to watch paint dry.

Especially blue paint.

Please can we find another name for 'French' blue. I think it's an insult to blue.

And what about 'French kissing'? They weren't the first to shove a tongue down a girly's throat.

Come to think about, just about every nation gets a slagging on this forum except France. I'll start:

Their politics are damn selfish.

They don't deserve a land mass that big.

They don't deserve all that yummy snow.

They don't deserve those fantastic women that look only like only french women can. Except Italian women.

They back away from a fight, just after they supplied the killing material.

Their farmers get too many subsidies.

They can't make decent music.

Their food is over-rated.

Everything that is poo originated from France, and we should change 'Grand Prix' to 'Grand Prize'.

There, that should do it for now........

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The only 2 good things that came out of the game was Hitchhikers Guide (Krikkit?) and realising what amazing fun it can be to watch paint dry.

Especially blue paint.

Please can we find another name for 'French' blue. I think it's an insult to blue.

And what about 'French kissing'? They weren't the first to shove a tongue down a girly's throat.

Come to think about, just about every nation gets a slagging on this forum except France. I'll start:

Their politics are damn selfish.

They don't deserve a land mass that big.

They don't deserve all that yummy snow.

They don't deserve those fantastic women that look only like only french women can. Except Italian women.

They back away from a fight, just after they supplied the killing material.

Their farmers get too many subsidies.

They can't make decent music.

Their food is over-rated.

Everything that is poo originated from France, and we should change 'Grand Prix' to 'Grand Prize'.

There, that should do it for now........

HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA

Come to think of it, as of a month or so ago I dont even support the only French team anymore <_<

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Cheese eating surrender monkeys?

Yuck. I've just realised that means 'French Fries' becomes 'Yellow Fries', how unappetising. Just like Froggy in fact.

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Does that count as cussing?

I think all intelligent insults are exempt. 'Specially if they are aimed at the one country on Earth that was born to be slagged off :naughty:

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Well now, as the sub-title of this thread is 'Some More Political BS??' and this topic came hot on the heels of Bruce's resolution to not engage in political threads, I thought my diversion was fitting with that whole political/non-political debate (also this came during your attempts to draw some members into a political debate in another thread, so this topic of yours seemed fair game). Many members seem to share my view, as evidenced by the fine display of de-railing of this topic by many more than just me.

However:

1) It was not meant as a personal slight against you, Mock. My humblest apologies to you if it seemed that way.

2) I have refrained from any further de-railings because quite a few members have been discussing your topic in earnest and I felt it bad form to de-rail it twice.

Carry on :)

No slight was perceived.

The sub title was actually a sarastic dig at PD. When the topics were flying thick and fast on India and Iraq the gentleman did not refrain from making his posts. When the topics come around to the USA, well....blue and silver seemed to become his favourite colours. I did not attempt to draw anyone into any political debate earlier - this was the first debate I have initiated with a political undertone.

Unfortunately over the last few days I've been watching some very bad movies - to name a few

- Fahrenheit 9/11

- In the Name of the Father

- Blood Diamond

- Hotel Rwanda

- Flags of our fathers

And you know what ? It sucks. It's all very fine to debate on whether he was right or not, but the images of torn bodies of innocents is going to haunt me for a long time, and that's what this debate was supposed to be about....

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Well I get the slight when you slyly wonder if your posts have been deleted....................

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Well I get the slight when you slyly wonder if your posts have been deleted....................

I still haven't figured that one out - the posts are there today, that I thought had been deleted, and the post in which I mentioned they had been delted is missing :eusa_think:

I don't know - does the topic appear with different posts in both the Cafe and F1 Discussions ?? I don't know, feels like I've seen a ghost. No slight intended, just wondered how the fish those posts disappeared

Edit: Just wanted to check and saw your post in the other 'Just Reminder'. I think it's stupid to have a topic with the same title in two forums with different posts, it's mucho confusing......

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No slight was perceived.

The sub title was actually a sarastic dig at PD. When the topics were flying thick and fast on India and Iraq the gentleman did not refrain from making his posts. When the topics come around to the USA, well....blue and silver seemed to become his favourite colours. I did not attempt to draw anyone into any political debate earlier - this was the first debate I have initiated with a political undertone.

Unfortunately over the last few days I've been watching some very bad movies - to name a few

- Fahrenheit 9/11

- In the Name of the Father

- Blood Diamond

- Hotel Rwanda

- Flags of our fathers

And you know what ? It sucks. It's all very fine to debate on whether he was right or not, but the images of torn bodies of innocents is going to haunt me for a long time, and that's what this debate was supposed to be about....

I think maybe it was the timing of the topic, Mock! :D

However, to be fair, people have been giving sensible views in amidst all the frivolity - well, should I say, some of my posts have been sensible, everybody else's have just been silly! :lol:

I thought the debate was about whether he was right or wrong to refuse to be deployed, though?

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