Clicky

Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

mock

Poll: Was Wahada Right In Refusing To Deploy To Iraq?

Was Wahada right in refusing to Deploy to Iraq?  

15 members have voted

  1. 1. Is he justified?

    • Yes
      5
    • No
      10


Recommended Posts

Perfect Monza, just perfect! :clap3:

:nono1: That's a low blow to a country like France.

I probably shouldn't be laughing so much either :bigwink:

On the other hand, where are the French, the Italians, ze Germans, the rest of the world?

No one else watches F1?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

:nono1: That's a low blow to a country like France.

I probably shouldn't be laughing so much either :bigwink:

On the other hand, where are the French, the Italians, ze Germans, the rest of the world?

No one else watches F1?

Ah, speaking of France and F1....Montagny wears a pink helmet and Renault's corporate color is yellow. Need I say more?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ah, speaking of France and F1....Montagny wears a pink helmet and Renault's corporate color is yellow. Need I say more?

And now you mess with Renault??? Bruce, get ready to ban me because the offense can't go unpunished!

Mike, get ready for some heavy cussing! :boxing:

"May 256 free-flowing members of Menudo adjust an area we like to refer to as the bottled water while laying on your least favorite Salad Shooter" (ancient Arabian curse)

Made with an Arabian insult generator http://www.mob.net/~ted/insult.php3

:lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Funny stuff chaps! The French deserve everything they get.... Except the beautiful women, good food, great scenery that is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
And now you mess with Renault??? Bruce, get ready to ban me because the offense can't go unpunished!

Mike, get ready for some heavy cussing! :boxing:

"May 256 free-flowing members of Menudo adjust an area we like to refer to as the bottled water while laying on your least favorite Salad Shooter" (ancient Arabian curse)

Made with an Arabian insult generator http://www.mob.net/~ted/insult.php3

:lol:

:lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think maybe it was the timing of the topic, Mock! :D

However, to be fair, people have been giving sensible views in amidst all the frivolity - well, should I say, some of my posts have been sensible, everybody else's have just been silly! :lol:

I thought the debate was about whether he was right or wrong to refuse to be deployed, though?

Yes, with the 'right or wrong' being the subject of debate. The stuff I mentioned triggered of a thought process - is the fact that killing of innocent civilians good enough to refuse deployment?

There was an interesting article today in The Hindu - the paper I get and probably India's most respected newspaper, it was a debate / view on how the justice system had been subverted in Saddams trial, and how Bush and gang should be liable for war atrocities and tried in a court as war criminals. The writer (who is not an Arab or a muslim) cites the fact that the 140 people killed for which Saddam was convicted happened over three or four seperate incidents and due to a perceived assasination attempt (he does not attempt to justify those killings however) and compared that to the over 150,000 dead innocent Iraqis. He says that at least SH had the justification of an assassination attempt. What reason did Bush have to attack Iraq. NONE. Absolutely, unequivocally NONE. All the stuff about Weapons of Mass Destruction and a link to 9/11 was absolute bulls##t. In fact its such a joke that all you have to do is to type in "Weapons of Mass Destruction' in Google and hit the 'I'm feeling lucky' button.

None of the witnesses that deposed in the trial have ever alleged that Saddam tortured them or ordered them tortured.

I rank Bush right up there with Hitler and Mussolini, probably worse. Rumsfeld and Bush are the butchers of Iraq.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I must say that this didn't make me proud because it's about killing people but showed me what a man fron the army or marine in this case is supose to do, they are trained for this but not everybody has the courage to face a situation like this in this way, and I don't think Wahada would do the same in that situation.

http://www.wtv-zone.com/Mary/THISWILLMAKEYOUPROUD.HTML

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yes, with the 'right or wrong' being the subject of debate. The stuff I mentioned triggered of a thought process - is the fact that killing of innocent civilians good enough to refuse deployment?

There was an interesting article today in The Hindu - the paper I get and probably India's most respected newspaper, it was a debate / view on how the justice system had been subverted in Saddams trial, and how Bush and gang should be liable for war atrocities and tried in a court as war criminals. The writer (who is not an Arab or a muslim) cites the fact that the 140 people killed for which Saddam was convicted happened over three or four seperate incidents and due to a perceived assasination attempt (he does not attempt to justify those killings however) and compared that to the over 150,000 dead innocent Iraqis. He says that at least SH had the justification of an assassination attempt. What reason did Bush have to attack Iraq. NONE. Absolutely, unequivocally NONE. All the stuff about Weapons of Mass Destruction and a link to 9/11 was absolute bulls##t. In fact its such a joke that all you have to do is to type in "Weapons of Mass Destruction' in Google and hit the 'I'm feeling lucky' button.

None of the witnesses that deposed in the trial have ever alleged that Saddam tortured them or ordered them tortured.

I rank Bush right up there with Hitler and Mussolini, probably worse. Rumsfeld and Bush are the butchers of Iraq.

I suppose there can be many different scenarious to this, Mock, but in general I would say no, it's not enough to refuse deployment. For instance, say he was deployed to a war he felt was justified, there could still be innocent civilian casualties, it's part of the unfortunate parcel of war. What would he do then? Or is the implication that killing innocent civilians is ok, as long as it wasn't intentional?

It still confuses me why he joined the armed forces in the first place, it makes me wonder what he expected to happen. Was he naive enough to believe that he would agree with every decision in the chain of command?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It still confuses me why he joined the armed forces in the first place, it makes me wonder what he expected to happen. Was he naive enough to believe that he would agree with every decision in the chain of command?

Indeed. Didn't he know about Vietnam? Perhaps one of our American friends can tell us, is it reasonable for someone who has done a fair amount of achooling (hopefully?) to be ignorant of Vietnam?

Seems more like some publicity hungry lawyer and some weak deluded kid (not that he isn't the one to blame for the business in case FJ drops by ;) )

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I suppose there can be many different scenarious to this, Mock, but in general I would say no, it's not enough to refuse deployment. For instance, say he was deployed to a war he felt was justified, there could still be innocent civilian casualties, it's part of the unfortunate parcel of war. What would he do then? Or is the implication that killing innocent civilians is ok, as long as it wasn't intentional?

It still confuses me why he joined the armed forces in the first place, it makes me wonder what he expected to happen. Was he naive enough to believe that he would agree with every decision in the chain of command?

How many young boys proudly wore the US Army uniform and smilingly went to war in a God forsaken jungle in the south of nowhere, guys smiling when they were going, shipped back in body bags.....some of them stuffed with plastic bags of heroin, if you are to believe the stories....

Did they know where they were going, and what they were going for ? They were the guys who obeyed the chain of command, those were the guys who believed everything they were told, those were the guys who didn't question their orders.......

And, what in Gods name were they fighting for ????? Can anyone, can any American please explain to me what they were doing thousands of miles from home, fighting a different race of people, in jungles, napalm bombing large areas, what for ??

Who is going to step up and ask your government what the hell you are doing in Iraq ? Was it WMD - no, was it 9/11 - no, Was Saddam a threat to the US - no, was the intelligence that a hospital was a hiding place for terrorists that needed to be bombed correct - no, Is the killing of innocent civilians OK - no, Is it OK to interfere in a sovereign nation - no, Is it OK to experiment if your weapons are working OK in a foreign country - no, Is it Ok to artificially boost your defence industry - no.

And the Americans consider themselves an accountable democracy. Democracy my a##

Watada is insignificant, actually in the whole scheme of things. At least he had the courage to say no...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I must say that this didn't make me proud because it's about killing people but showed me what a man fron the army or marine in this case is supose to do, they are trained for this but not everybody has the courage to face a situation like this in this way, and I don't think Wahada would do the same in that situation.

http://www.wtv-zone.com/Mary/THISWILLMAKEYOUPROUD.HTML

It makes me sick. Reminds me of FOX TV.

I guess at the end of it, on the ground, all bulls##t about protecting the constitution and democracy and WMD and 9/11 aside, these guys are not fighting for the country, or for any great ideals. They are fighting because they are there and they are fighting to protect their buddies in front, their buddies next to them and their buddies behind them, nothing else.

edit: Which is commendable btw, it couldn't be any other way

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='mock' post='165585' date='Jan 10 2007, 06:32 PM']How many young boys proudly wore the US Army uniform and smilingly went to war in a God forsaken jungle in the south of nowhere, guys smiling when they were going, shipped back in body bags.....some of them stuffed with plastic bags of heroin, if you are to believe the stories....

Did they know where they were going, and what they were going for ? They were the guys who obeyed the chain of command, those were the guys who believed everything they were told, those were the guys who didn't question their orders.......

And, what in Gods name were they fighting for ????? Can anyone, can any American please explain to me what they were doing thousands of miles from home, fighting a different race of people, in jungles, napalm bombing large areas, what for ??

Who is going to step up and ask your government what the hell you are doing in Iraq ? Was it WMD - no, was it 9/11 - no, Was Saddam a threat to the US - no, was the intelligence that a hospital was a hiding place for terrorists that needed to be bombed correct - no, Is the killing of innocent civilians OK - no, Is it OK to interfere in a sovereign nation - no, Is it OK to experiment if your weapons are working OK in a foreign country - no, Is it Ok to artificially boost your defence industry - no.

[b]And the Americans consider themselves an accountable democracy. Democracy my a##[/b]

Watada is insignificant, actually in the whole scheme of things. At least he had the courage to say no...[/quote]

Interesting you should say that Mock. I can't think of a single country represented on this forum (except Switzerland!) that hasn't had something in its past that's extremely unsavoury - by that I am particularly referring to my own and to yours.

And if you think that the public didn't try and change the Governments opinion about Vietnam, then with respect, perhaps you should check out the history of the USA at that time - the backlash was remarkable. Perhaps if you try to take devils advocate and look at the bigger picture, as opposed to your newspaper, you might give your opinion in a way that isn't quite so insulting to some on this forum - but that's your prerogative. Some could see you as throwing stones when your own country is not without its faults, faults that you could direct your distaste for the waste of human life towards maybe?

[b]"It makes me sick. Reminds me of FOX TV". [/b] Maybe it did make you sick, but the person that published it had something they wanted to say, and just as you do, they have the right to do it. And just as you think it's sickening, maybe they could feel the same way about your opinions? Have you thought you might have the same effect on others in this forum?

[b]"I rank Bush right up there with Hitler and Mussolini, probably worse. Rumsfeld and Bush are the butchers of Iraq". [/b] And how do you feel about Osama bin Laden? How would rate him up against these guys? The same? Freedom fighter? Murderer? And Blair? Why not him too?

Sorry if I've taken your opinions and comments the wrong way, but it really seems that you're just intent on slagging a nation off when your own hasn't exactly got the cutest in the history of human rights, government and the treatment of its public.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
How many young boys proudly wore the US Army uniform and smilingly went to war in a God forsaken jungle in the south of nowhere, guys smiling when they were going, shipped back in body bags.....some of them stuffed with plastic bags of heroin, if you are to believe the stories....

Did they know where they were going, and what they were going for ? They were the guys who obeyed the chain of command, those were the guys who believed everything they were told, those were the guys who didn't question their orders.......

And, what in Gods name were they fighting for ????? Can anyone, can any American please explain to me what they were doing thousands of miles from home, fighting a different race of people, in jungles, napalm bombing large areas, what for ??

Who is going to step up and ask your government what the hell you are doing in Iraq ? Was it WMD - no, was it 9/11 - no, Was Saddam a threat to the US - no, was the intelligence that a hospital was a hiding place for terrorists that needed to be bombed correct - no, Is the killing of innocent civilians OK - no, Is it OK to interfere in a sovereign nation - no, Is it OK to experiment if your weapons are working OK in a foreign country - no, Is it Ok to artificially boost your defence industry - no.

And the Americans consider themselves an accountable democracy. Democracy my a##

Watada is insignificant, actually in the whole scheme of things. At least he had the courage to say no...

As Medilloni said earlier, though, Mock, what would have happened if the British troops and civilians hadn't believed the Govenment in World War 2? What would have happened if the American troops and civilians hadn't believed their Government that they should help out Britain in World War 2? I am not saying war is right, but the simple fact is you can't have soldiers questioning orders - how do they know when to stop questioning orders? Do they then question every order, or only the ones they believe to be wrong? What happens if one solder believes something to be wrong, but another soldier believes it to be right?

You can say Watada had the courage to say no, I could be cynical and say he turned out to be a coward who choked at the thought of going to Irag. Things are not always black and white..............

You say it's not ok to interfere with a sovereign nation and you say killing innocent civilians is not ok - how about Britain's situation during World War 2? Germany tried to interfere with our nation, by that I mean conquer us, and we killed innocent civilians, so who was right and who was wrong? In this present situation, while I may question the motives to interfere with Iraq, the truth of the matter is that the world would be singing a different song if weapons of mass destruction had been found.

Let me be clear about this, though, I neither support nor oppose the decision to enter Iraq, I simply accept it as one of those things in life that I will never find out the truth to. I don't like war, I don't like violence, I am a peaceful person, but the real world, unfortunately, is not like that. I still hope that we can find world peace in my lifetime, but I don't accept things like war as being as black and white as they might first appear.

Edit: When I said 'like Medilloni said earlier', I meant earlier in the thread, not the post he just slipped in before mine because he types quicker than me!! :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
They call me Zorro :P

Hence forthwith, you shall be know on these forums as Zorro! And the evil people shall cower at the terrifying sight of your hands moving at lightning speed over your keyboard......... :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It makes me sick. Reminds me of FOX TV.

I guess at the end of it, on the ground, all bulls##t about protecting the constitution and democracy and WMD and 9/11 aside, these guys are not fighting for the country, or for any great ideals. They are fighting because they are there and they are fighting to protect their buddies in front, their buddies next to them and their buddies behind them, nothing else.

edit: Which is commendable btw, it couldn't be any other way

Is the same in every war, everybody is trying to stay alive, except for those who think (like the japaneses kamikase and muslims extremist) that they are going "straight to heaven" when they give their lives in for their cause.

You could be a marine or whatever but you are not really fighting because you fell and think the same way as your president who sent you there, you fight because that is your job and you have been trained to obey orders, to fight and to survive, you fight because if you don't fight you are going to be killed, is do or die.

The good thing about this story is that he was thinking about his buddies and his put himself in danger to save then, he was in charge but he didn't send anybody else like many of us would do in the same situation, that's why I consider him a hero, eventhought he was killing people, there was nothing else he could do, I don't like to see people being killed just because their leaders are taking advantage of then, deciving then and sending then to die, you don't see Bin laden fighting, he is hidden and sending other people to die, like Saddan who was found hidden in a hole, and like Hezbollah leader who is hidden somewhere, Bush is not hidden because he feels safe where he is, but he is sendind people to die for what he think is the right thing to do even if is motivated by money like some people think, he is doing what he think he should do, but he is not taking the weapons he is sendind somebody else to die.

This is sad but there is no way we can stop it. Just think how many people have been killed in Iraq just becauce of two people Saddam and Bush, there is nobody else to be blame for all those deads.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hence forthwith, you shall be know on these forums as Zorro! And the evil people shall cower at the terrifying sight of your hands moving at lightning speed over your keyboard......... :lol:

Cheeky monkey.

Mind you, once I went private for the Arthritis, the Titanium knuckles, carbon fibre tendons and special blend oil from Shell really have made a difference.

This is getting ridiculous, the threads on here really do show how bored people are before the season starts :yawn:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was going to say something bitting but instead I'll bite my tongue...........

Has anyone noticed the amount of movies that were made back in the 30's etc. about Britain and India?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I was going to say something bitting but instead I'll bite my tongue...........

Has anyone noticed the amount of movies that were made back in the 30's etc. about Britain and India?

Biting about what, Bruce ? I know you don't want to really get into the fray, as it were, but you have to give a hint about which side you're coming from - it could be that you are disagreeing with things I've said, or Medilloni, etc. Stop teasing us, man!! :D

:eusa_think: I thought you were only 50ish??? :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Biting about what, Bruce ? I know you don't want to really get into the fray, as it were, but you have to give a hint about which side you're coming from - it could be that you are disagreeing with things I've said, or Medilloni, etc. Stop teasing us, man!! :D

:eusa_think: I thought you were only 50ish??? :lol:

I am only 50.

Let's just say that a certain person is getting to sound like a broken record, and i believe is trying to bait me and or fellow Americans into going postal.

But then again when certain statements that are made that are so outlandish it's kind of fun watching them swing by thier own rope so to say...........

Now about those movies......................................

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I am only 50.

Let's just say that a certain person is getting to sound like a broken record, and i believe is trying to bait me and or fellow Americans into going postal.

But then again when certain statements that are made that are so outlandish it's kind of fun watching them swing by thier own rope so to say...........

Now about those movies......................................

Maybe, maybe not, Bruce - I am not sure, but I shall respect your judgement on that. :D

Did you say you were in the navy? If you were, then you probably have a relevant perspective on the issue being discussed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I am only 50.

Let's just say that a certain person is getting to sound like a broken record, and i believe is trying to bait me and or fellow Americans into going postal.

But then again when certain statements that are made that are so outlandish it's kind of fun watching them swing by thier own rope so to say...........

Now about those movies......................................

Maybe, maybe not, Bruce - I am not sure, but I shall respect your judgement on that. :D

Did you say you were in the navy? If you were, then you probably have a relevant perspective on the issue being discussed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I was going to say something bitting but instead I'll bite my tongue...........

Has anyone noticed the amount of movies that were made back in the 30's etc. about Britain and India?

Well, something good came out of a bad thing Bruce. It's where Spike Milligan was brought up :naughty:

Only 50? Whippersnapper.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Maybe, maybe not, Bruce - I am not sure, but I shall respect your judgement on that. :D

Did you say you were in the navy? If you were, then you probably have a relevant perspective on the issue being discussed.

Yes Navy all the way, man I got to tell you being on the flight deck of the "Connie" while into the wind and going about 30 knotts in 15' seas will get your d#ck hard in a hurry, launching F-14's, A-6's etc. :naughty:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...