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Jenson_Rules

Sexuality; What Are Your Views?

Sexuality  

48 members have voted

  1. 1. Is Your Sexuality A Choice?

    • Yes
      24
    • No
      24
  2. 2. Should Homosexual Men And Women Have Equal Rights With Straight People?

    • Yes
      39
    • No
      9
  3. 3. Should Homosexual Couples Be Allowed To Adopt?

    • Yes
      24
    • No
      24


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There's no need for that sort of personal abuse, HotRod. It is never justified and just makes you look silly. It exposes you as a very intolerant person.

Picking on my belief system isn't picking on me? Go ahead everybody, pick on Christianity - that's not personal abuse. I'm a Christian, yes go ahead ...please mock me. You are somewhat bias, monza gorilla! You always jump on the bandwagon of fellows who share your beliefs.

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Picking on my belief system isn't picking on me? Go ahead everybody, pick on Christianity - that's not personal abuse. I'm a Christian, yes go ahead ...please mock me. You are somewhat bias, monza gorilla! You always jump on the bandwagon of fellows who share your beliefs.

$hit spewing from a fraud :lol:

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Picking on my belief system isn't picking on me? Go ahead everybody, pick on Christianity - that's not personal abuse. I'm a Christian, yes go ahead ...please mock me. You are somewhat bias, monza gorilla! You always jump on the bandwagon of fellows who share your beliefs.

1. The chimp expressed his opinion, his belief! I hardly call that picking on someone. He most certainly did not mock you, or your belief system. Your post, on the other hand, was just a witless personal jibe.

2. As for me being biased, you are stating the obvious. I am quite open about my atheism. It follows that I will tend to agree with non religious folk when the discussion turns to matters of faith. This isn't always the case, but is predominantly true.

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but the paragraph says you should never refuse sex to each other, and if you agree to not do it for a while, its because you are agreeing to spend more time in prayer???

so if you have a religious wife you can expect sex every day, cos to refuse you would be against her beliefs?

i just think the bible sets too many 'rules'. I have morals but not strict, restrictive morals which prevent me from living life to the full!

Yes. Not all xians believe this nonsense. Very many are perfectly reasonable people of course. However some good friends of mine got married at the weekend, and they are just this kind of xian. The now-wife promised to obey her now-husband of course but it went much further than that. The sermon (given by another good friend of ours who's training as a rather extreme preacher) emphasised repeatedly that she had just given up all freedom to her husband's whim not just on sex but on everything. The husband is God's "servant-leader" on earth, apparently.

matter to a church who asked him about that, this is not a comandment from the Lord and should not be taken as a comandment, he was just giving his advice, but you without knowing this just called it crap. :nono1:

So everything Paul said on marriage was just his opinion? Doesn't this call into doubt the Church's traditional stance on marriage, gender relations etc?

As for your request for proof to establish a negative (i.e. that homosexuality is not a disorder) that is logically impossible. If something does not exist, there can be no proof of its non-existence.

As a result, it falls to those making the positive claim (i.e be it a belief in [G]od, a belief in Santa Claus, or a belief that homosexuality is a disorder) to demonstrate their proof.

Yes and you could even add that almost every medical professional in the world believes that homosexuality is not a disorder.

1. The chimp expressed his opinion, his belief! I hardly call that picking on someone. He most certainly did not mock you, or your belief system. Your post, on the other hand, was just a witless personal jibe.

The hypocrisy of Xianity does amuse me no end. For millenia they persecuted anyone who disagreed with them, but now they accuse us of "picking on" them when we simply express our opinions. I assume their over the top reactions stem from a realisation of the irrationality of their own beliefs. It must be very frustrating to have to answer every question by reading a book, then trying to think of an argument - any will do, it doesn't have to be any good, it seems - that supports the conclusion of the book, rather than simply following where logic leads.

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I have no problem with other belief systems be they Christian, Muslim, Shinto, or what have you. Or the people who hold those beliefs. I have a problem with zealots. (I know that zealots can also be atheist, so don't remind me)

I have some good friends who are devout Christians. Two of them are ministers. We argue and discuss our relative positions over a beer or three and a couple of cigars. We are each not offended by the views of the others. They are what I'd call religious men. Hotrod is not a religious man. He is a zealot.

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this whole thread is way more than my brain can cope with but i notice high tensions and insults flying around, lets keep it clean now boys and girls

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Far be it for you to judge, but then you proceed to do precisely that...... do you not see your own hypocrisy?

In relation to God condoning homosexuality... Thats why the sentence is after the God condone statement. What I meant was God does'nt create people homos, they are homos because they choose to be... and I've got no prolem with that choice......

You are not open-minded, sir - in fact, you are entirely closed-minded, as you admit below....

I am openmind within my own belief structure. Do you know what I circumstances I come from? You have NO IDEA mister. Don't compare your highly intellect situation/upbringing to mine. Let's look at the word openminded in the dictionary: willing to consider new ideas; unprejudiced. Your willingness to except a new idea might not be the same as mine, I might accept more controversial ideas than you.....

With my work in advertising, I try to stretch ideas as far as they can go. If I belief a naked woman is the best way to compliment a product, I will use just that idea. Once again.....againts my narrowminded christian upbringing...get it????

If a belief that homosexuality is a disorder is acceptable without any scientific proof to support it, then it would be equally consistent for me to suggest that a belief in an imaginary supreme being is a phsycological disorder accompanied by delusional manifestations.

exactly!!! I've got no quarrels with that....I don't care if you think I'm pschychologically disordered accompanied by delusional manifestations, or something like that.... :D My belief is MY belief, yours is YOURS.......

As for your request for proof to establish a negative (i.e. that homosexuality is not a disorder) that is logically impossible. If something does not exist, there can be no proof of its non-existence.

As a result, it falls to those making the positive claim (i.e be it a belief in [G]od, a belief in Santa Claus, or a belief that homosexuality is a disorder) to demonstrate their proof.

Who wanted the proof in the first place?????????????? I came into this thread with jaq wanting some biblical proof that homosexuals are disordered. That seemed to be the positive aint it. It also seems to be a positive when it can be cured too. I ask those questions to proof how useless his questions are....

It is completely inconsistent to agree with anything HotRod wrote and then claim that you are an open-minded individual. You both admit that your opinions are defined by the bible and nothing, not reasoned argument, personal experience, nor even your own rationality will interfere with that belief structure. This reduces you to little more than an automaton - an entirely unthinking drone.

Hardly something to be emulated I would think.....

Wrong, a bible verse might take on different meanings, you might get something more or hidden than I do. I might say drinking alcohol is wrong because of it's addictive qualities, but you would say Jesus made alcohol, how can it be wrong. The inconsistency is there from the beginning. You have no idea what being a Christian is, first be a Christian b4 you judge. and Let me say this for the record. There are openminded Christian, and narrowminded Christian within their own belief structures. You blow hoollaaaaaahhhoooopppsss on what you think I do, judging homosexuals. look what you do. You basically state that Christians are entirely unthinking drones with no reasoned arguement. If you think God made us to be like that, you're sadly mistaken. Nice one Funkejay, I can hear the jury clapping....

BTW: I don't mean to offend, but are you in any way homosexual???

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I have no problem with other belief systems be they Christian, Muslim, Shinto, or what have you. Or the people who hold those beliefs. I have a problem with zealots. (I know that zealots can also be atheist, so don't remind me)

I have some good friends who are devout Christians. Two of them are ministers. We argue and discuss our relative positions over a beer or three and a couple of cigars. We are each not offended by the views of the others. They are what I'd call religious men. Hotrod is not a religious man. He is a zealot.

:clap3: Clear, concise and to the point!

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Notice it stopped when the nutter left the forum? He's a fake. I don't log in much now but I still readthreads and you can tell a mile off that hes not what he says.

It was pretty clear from his first post to be honest, but i didnt want to say anything cos if i'd been wrong, it would've been very rude of me.

strange person

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I have no problem with other belief systems be they Christian, Muslim, Shinto, or what have you. Or the people who hold those beliefs. I have a problem with zealots. (I know that zealots can also be atheist, so don't remind me)

I have some good friends who are devout Christians. Two of them are ministers. We argue and discuss our relative positions over a beer or three and a couple of cigars. We are each not offended by the views of the others. They are what I'd call religious men. Hotrod is not a religious man. He is a zealot.

Thats really nice MG..... It's great to be in those situations when someone will respect you for what you believe in, and vica versa

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Sometimes it gets quite noisy, Brad! But we always part as friends. And yeah it is nice to be able to do that. Some people find it very difficult though.

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Here is a good material for thoses who want to know if God is real or not, just read this.

CWN - Catholic World News (CWN)

You are persistent, I'll grant you that, but you fail to see the most important thing if you want to convince others. You cannot make your point by pushing your point forward, and then merely supporting it by saying 'this is the way it is'. How on earth will make any rationally accept your argument if you refuse to back it up with anything.

Do yur own research about this or go over there and see with your own eyes the almighty power of God working today and this is something that nobody can deny.
A few questions to start you off.

Why did god choose them, and none of the millions of other equally devout, starving individuals of this world?

What part of it proves in any way that that particular agricultural success story was divine work, and not the simple result of of well stuff tht leads to good argicultural produce :D

A basic principle of experimentation is you define the experiment befoer you do it. Finding a village that is doing better than its neighbours and finding that its population is particularly religious proves nothing. You have to prove thaqt any change was solely the result of divine intervention, for that you need a before and after scenario, reporting and review by sources who don't presuppose the existence of such a divine entity. If you look at the night sky for constellations with the preconceived notion that you'll see a horse. If you go around telling everyone that there is a horse in the sky merely because you say so, you're proving nothing. Just like the ancients looking at the night sky sketching out constellations, you choose to see what you want to and insist that the way you see it is the only correct way. There are millions of stars, you can sketch out anything you want. How do you convince anyone else that whast you sketched is what it was meant to be?

Thats why our good friend Schumikonen uses the Bible as his believe to prove his points

I believe Jay would call that an 'argument from authority' and therefore a logical fallacy :D

Authorities, like everything are fallible. You may contend that religion is beyond the realm of logic, but you cannot claim that that is logical way of proving a point.

We now move to the homosexual disorder. It is a disorder because in the Bible, our belief system
The term has an important medical meaning. If you choose to use it in a completely different context, it would be better if you were to invent another term altogether, for somwething that is a disorder according to the bible. You are misusing the term if you allege that something is a disorder because the bible says it is.
I already posted some testimonies of people who has been cured, that should be enough for you, there are thier addresses if you want to get in contact with them, and I can get you hundreds more of thoses people from all around the world

I can get you thousands more, except that they may be from a belief system different to your own, from belief in a different god(s). You can begin by convincing me how those claims are any more valid than them.

Take these people for example - http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,,740633,00.html

Can you PLEASE, PLEASE PLEASE show us homosexuality is not a disorder...

Define disorder first. If you manage ti without reference to the bible, christianity/ anything religious then we can take this further, otherwise of course you can call it a disorder if it pleases you.

Or how abotu I make the claim that wearing polka dotted underwear is a disorder. So how will you show me it is not a disorder, without making a reference to the bible, and without making arguments that can be sued to answer your above question.

: willing to consider new ideas; unprejudiced. Your willingness to except a new idea might not be the same as mine, I might accept more controversial ideas than you.....

Willing to consider new ideas does not equate to willing to accept more controversial ideas. Your ideas are not new, they are arguments that I have rejected long ago.

You basically state that Christians are entirely unthinking drones with no reasoned arguement.
straw man...
BTW: I don't mean to offend, but are you in any way homosexual???

:lol: Why would he be offended

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Yes. Not all xians believe this nonsense. Very many are perfectly reasonable people of course. However some good friends of mine got married at the weekend, and they are just this kind of xian. The now-wife promised to obey her now-husband of course but it went much further than that. The sermon (given by another good friend of ours who's training as a rather extreme preacher) emphasised repeatedly that she had just given up all freedom to her husband's whim not just on sex but on everything. The husband is God's "servant-leader" on earth, apparently.

Well, the theory goes like this: Marriage between two Christains is like the relationship between Christ and us. Many times Christ is referred to as the bridegroom and his followers as the bride. As Christ takes care of us and devotes 100% love to us, so should a husband act towards his wife. In washing the disciples feet, Christ demonstrated the love of becoming a servant to our needs. So too is the husband to demonstrate his love for his wife. The wife's part is to love her husband with all her heart and do well towards him as we are expected to do towards Christ. It's about love and respect, not domination and control. The term 'obey' conveys a different, harsher, meaning without this context.

That being said, my wife isn't a Christian, so we tailor-made our wedding vows.

I have no problem with other belief systems be they Christian, Muslim, Shinto, or what have you. Or the people who hold those beliefs. I have a problem with zealots. (I know that zealots can also be atheist, so don't remind me)

I have some good friends who are devout Christians. Two of them are ministers. We argue and discuss our relative positions over a beer or three and a couple of cigars. We are each not offended by the views of the others. They are what I'd call religious men. Hotrod is not a religious man. He is a zealot.

I strive to be like your minister friends; they have the right of it. All zealots do is dimish the reputation of religious persons.

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I strive to be like your minister friends; they have the right of it. All zealots do is dimish the reputation of religious persons.

Not only religious persons, Mike. Non believers can be just as crazed.

Beloved told me that when she moved here from the wastes of Scotland she was amazed that nobody gave a damn whether she was Catholic or Protestant. Just couldn't believe that people were accepted for who they were and not what they believed. I struggle to imagine such division.

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Yeah I'm sure you had a lovely wedding Mike and also that you're wife doesn't let you control her. ;) But some Christians (like the good friends I mentioned) take things more literally. I mean she really did accept that he was her lord and master. She promised to obey him at all times, even when she disagreed. Now I don't think that can be right - I certainly won't want that at my wedding.

Regarding the analogy that we are to Christ as a wife is to a husband, it just seems to me that we "obey" Christ because He is superior to us and He does know better, from the Christian point of view. But I don't think we men are that much smarter than women. ;) I think I would personally interpret that analogy in the Bible as being an explanation of our relation to Christ in terms that were widely known and accepted by the society of the day. Whereas some Christians seem to use it the other way round: we all know our relation to Christ, and look, the Bible tells us we are like Christ compared to lowly women. Anyway, good to have a more reasonable representative of the faith here Mike!

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Where's your lady from Russ - Glasgow? My Mum's from there and I hear there's a lot of strife there as you say.

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She's from Kirkintilloch, just North of Glasgow. When she was young(er) she was forbidden to mix with Catholics. But, of course, her father could still go out drinking with his Catholic buddies because "that was different".

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:lol: Yeah. Anyway it's so silly all that nonsense. I like Scotland but parts of Glasgow for instance are really messed up.

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jag, many here have tried to explain the concept of the bible and the bible's stance on the topic being discussed; and about their personal points of view. When one defines oneself as a bible-believing-christian, it becomes easier for that one to accept the view of the bible as the only authoritive rule relating to 'sin'. Its a strange phenomon this, when one first become's this type of christian. One's whole mindset is overuled, 'renewed'; all one's opinions that one's held before, is replaced by the values stipulated by the bible. The bible does not present itself to be opinionated, nor does it present itself to be fairytales or beautiful stories to warm one's heart. It presents itself as omniscient. That's all knowing. You will have a hard time understanding it, and that is a fact. We can't convert you but what you must understand that when we do give our point of views, it is bible-based and because it is bible-based, any argument that one makes that contradicts the bible - one's never going to win. It's a complex a phenomenon but I hope I've helped.

One who uses the bible as the written truth in any arguement is never going to win because it's only a book. As I said before you have to believe in yourself before anything else. If someone requires a book to believe in one's self, well all I can say is go nuts, fill your boots. Look at the turmoil in the world your bible has caused for centuries in the name of god. All because of the misconseptions that all that is written is true. Religion has for too long manipulated the system of life. I believe someone earlier called it a cult and that's all it is. A manipulative cult. I again appreciate your views and again it's your right, but please don't tell me that prejudice towards someone's sexuality or skin color or whatever is acceptable. Your book says to love thy neighbour. Will you love a muslim, a buddist, a homosexual? Let me also ask. Would you accept your brother or sister, son or daughter as a homosexual or would you send them to a church for reorientation of their sexuality because you can't accept it?

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Regarding the analogy that we are to Christ as a wife is to a husband, it just seems to me that we "obey" Christ because He is superior to us and He does know better, from the Christian point of view. But I don't think we men are that much smarter than women. ;) I think I would personally interpret that analogy in the Bible as being an explanation of our relation to Christ in terms that were widely known and accepted by the society of the day. Whereas some Christians seem to use it the other way round: we all know our relation to Christ, and look, the Bible tells us we are like Christ compared to lowly women. Anyway, good to have a more reasonable representative of the faith here Mike!

Interesting take on it. While I agree that, at the time, women were viewed by most cultures as being inferior, Paul, who wrote about the relationship between husband and wife, looked on women as equals. He even put two of them as heads of churches. My analogy only goes so far, however, and stops short of 'obeying' like we 'obey' Christ as a Deity. We cannot 'obey' a fellow servant like we 'obey' a Deity, or have the same understanding of 'superiority'. We obey Christ because we love Him. He gave much to us and we love Him for it. That is the relationship that is to be emulated in marriage.

Strangely enough, if you practice that attitude of love and respect towards your significant other, that person will reciprocate. The Bible teaches sound philosophy there, regardless if you believe in God, Allah or nothing at all. I don't buy into the strict 'obey' that your friends follow. My wife would laugh her head off if I suggested it! I've found that if I practice my part in the marriage, as the Bible, in correct context, states that I should, my wife generally will agree to follow my 'lead'. There's no controlling there, just trust that I'll not take us someplace harmful. Is it chauvanistic to say that? Maybe, but somehow it doesn't work out that way....... :eusa_think: In most relationships between men and women the male does take the dominant role...again, chauvanistic or simple observation....?

I've lost my point somewhere....I need a beer.....

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If someone requires a book to believe in one's self, well all I can say is go nuts, fill your boots.

I appreciate the open-mind, thank you.

Look at the turmoil in the world your bible has caused for centuries in the name of god. All because of the misconseptions that all that is written is true.

Hmm....man is to blame, not God. The Bible has ever been incorrectly used to gain power. This is wrong and not in the Christian teaching, if followed rightly.

Your book says to love thy neighbour. Will you love a muslim, a buddist, a homosexual? Let me also ask. Would you accept your brother or sister, son or daughter as a homosexual or would you send them to a church for reorientation of their sexuality because you can't accept it?

Yes I would, and do, love those you list (love being 'respect' like I would an equal and not harming that person*). The correct view a Christian should have is to view all persons as fellow souls, none lower or greater. The Christian reaction to homosexuality is extreme these days. The Bible lists it as a 'sin' but it lists many things as a 'sin'. I have, do, and will commit many sins in my lifetime. Some sins are possibly greater than homosexuality, but possibly not. I can hardly judge that, and the good Christian will likewise not judge it. If there is a God, then he, through Jesus, will judge it. If there isn't a God, then I'll not impede anyone from doing what they feel is just with their life.

EDIT:*There are exceptions to this, but I risk complicating an already complex thread, so I omitted further explanations.

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I appreciate the open-mind, thank you.

Hmm....man is to blame, not God. The Bible has ever been incorrectly used to gain power. This is wrong and not in the Christian teaching, if followed rightly.

Yes I would, and do, love those you list (love being 'respect' like I would an equal and not harming that person). The correct view a Christian should have is to view all persons as fellow souls, none lower or greater. The Christian reaction to homosexuality is extreme these days. The Bible lists it as a 'sin' but it lists many things as a 'sin'. I have, do, and will commit many sins in my lifetime. Some sins are possibly greater than homosexuality, but possibly not. I can hardly judge that, and the good Christian will likewise not judge it. If there is a God, then he, through Jesus, will judge it. If there isn't a God, then I'll not impede anyone from doing what they feel is just with their life.

It is certainly man that has created the turmoil that has and does exist in this world, but it has in most cases been the man who uses the book to set his agenda on how the world should be through his convaluted concept of how and what people should believe is right or wrong. Case and point of one current leader who uses the book to set his agenda is G.W.Bush. Look at what his belief has ceated. If I were to believe, the greatest sin would be not to accept the differences of each and every person living on this planet, and to appreciate their difference as a part of life

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It is certainly man that has created the turmoil that has and does exist in this world, but it has in most cases been the man who uses the book to set his agenda on how the world should be through his convaluted concept of how and what people should believe is right or wrong.

Ah, good. We agree. I would hope you include most beliefs into this, not just the Christian belief. Some would tell me that abortion is right. I disagree. I object when those people then try to 'push' their 'concept' of what I should believe is right or wrong onto me. I am glad you would equally condemn those types of people in the same breath and Christians.

Case and point of one current leader who uses the book to set his agenda is G.W.Bush. Look at what his belief has ceated.

I can't speak to his beliefs. I know that some of his policies are not very consistent with Christianity. Islam also has leaders acting in a different manner than their Holy Book calls for. So too Judaism. Making a judgement about a religion based on the actions of the followers wont tell you about the religion, just the followers. It's a subtle distiction to make, but an important one.

If I were to believe, the greatest sin would be not to accept the differences of each and every person living on this planet, and to appreciate their difference as a part of life

Some religions teach this. Christianity teaches that there is one God (His son, Jesus is a part of that God). All beliefs that do not have God (and Jesus) as the sole Deity are, according to Christians, not correct. We are here in the flesh to decide, through free will, if we will accept Him or not. As Christians we cannot get away from those tenets. Now, the key phrase in all that is 'free will'. A good Christian remembers that over all else, and accepts when someone chooses not to believe. God created free will and if any person pushes the Christian belief onto another person, that person is doing something even God Himself has not done. Very dangerous. It's enough that Christians answer questions as best as we can and treat all with respect, regardless of their belief and strive to set a good example.

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