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Jenson_Rules

Sexuality; What Are Your Views?

Sexuality  

48 members have voted

  1. 1. Is Your Sexuality A Choice?

    • Yes
      24
    • No
      24
  2. 2. Should Homosexual Men And Women Have Equal Rights With Straight People?

    • Yes
      39
    • No
      9
  3. 3. Should Homosexual Couples Be Allowed To Adopt?

    • Yes
      24
    • No
      24


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Making a judgement about a religion based on the actions of the followers wont tell you about the religion, just the followers. It's a subtle distiction to make, but an important one.

A very valid point. And one that I agree with.

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We obey Christ because we love Him. He gave much to us and we love Him for it. That is the relationship that is to be emulated in marriage.

Ah OK. I understand it a little better from that. But still I don't really agree here because we all might love our kids but we wouldn't automatically obey them. Likewise a man might love his wife as she loves him but it is apparently only she who must automatically obey him, according to some Christians, like my friends.

Strangely enough, if you practice that attitude of love and respect towards your significant other, that person will reciprocate. The Bible teaches sound philosophy there, regardless if you believe in God, Allah or nothing at all.

I agree. There is much wisdom in the Bible.

I don't buy into the strict 'obey' that your friends follow. My wife would laugh her head off if I suggested it! I've found that if I practice my part in the marriage, as the Bible, in correct context, states that I should, my wife generally will agree to follow my 'lead'. There's no controlling there, just trust that I'll not take us someplace harmful. Is it chauvanistic to say that? Maybe, but somehow it doesn't work out that way....... :eusa_think: In most relationships between men and women the male does take the dominant role...again, chauvanistic or simple observation....?

Hmm.... well it's true, so I don't think it's sexist! I think us taking the lead is the way we men and our girls want it, more often than not at least.

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Ah, good. We agree. I would hope you include most beliefs into this, not just the Christian belief. Some would tell me that abortion is right. I disagree. I object when those people then try to 'push' their 'concept' of what I should believe is right or wrong onto me. I am glad you would equally condemn those types of people in the same breath and Christians.

I can't speak to his beliefs. I know that some of his policies are not very consistent with Christianity. Islam also has leaders acting in a different manner than their Holy Book calls for. So too Judaism. Making a judgement about a religion based on the actions of the followers wont tell you about the religion, just the followers. It's a subtle distiction to make, but an important one.

Some religions teach this. Christianity teaches that there is one God (His son, Jesus is a part of that God). All beliefs that do not have God (and Jesus) as the sole Deity are, according to Christians, not correct. We are here in the flesh to decide, through free will, if we will accept Him or not. As Christians we cannot get away from those tenets. Now, the key phrase in all that is 'free will'. A good Christian remembers that over all else, and accepts when someone chooses not to believe. God created free will and if any person pushes the Christian belief onto another person, that person is doing something even God Himself has not done. Very dangerous. It's enough that Christians answer questions as best as we can and treat all with respect, regardless of their belief and strive to set a good example.

Some would argue that contraception goes against god's will, and some would argue that abortion goes against god's will. I would say that the use of abortion as contreception is wrong, but i would say that abortion is a matter of choice. It is the not the right of anyone who uses the book as a basis of what is good for one is good for all as a rule of law. In your second statement it is the leaders who manipulate the bible, the quaran to lead the misguided to pursue their agenda. Even the pope has used the book to set out his own agenda and goals no matter the cost for the continued role to control what all people should believe. The church should accept that it is free will and not to say a woman will be forever held in damnation for choosing to have an abortion, nor should a leader of a free society, based on their religous belief. They have the right to believe what they may, but they do not have the right to set policy on their belief.

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Ah OK. I understand it a little better from that. But still I don't really agree here because we all might love our kids but we wouldn't automatically obey them. Likewise a man might love his wife as she loves him but it is apparently only she who must automatically obey him, according to some Christians, like my friends.

Well, the application only applies in the husband/wife relationship; it isn't really something that can be carried over into sibling or parental relationships. There are other tenets that cover those. The problem here is that most of the new testament comes from letters written by Paul to the different churches or to individuals. We don't have the letter that asked him the questions that he was sometimes replying to. A good example is when it's written that women shouldn't chatter in church. That is taken literally instead of as Paul responding to a question about an isolated incident in a church. The views on marriage may also be taken like that, in that it may have been a response to a question and framed in a way to, as you pointed out, fit with the culture of the time. The Bible is written with common overall themes that put meaning into the smaller themes. My analogy about marriage is one of those themes. The smaller, restrictive theme is put into proper context by looking at the overall theme.

I have friends that believe similar to what your friends believe. When I see it in action in their lives I bite my tongue and remember that it works for them, however odd it seems to me. If both parties agree to it, and it works, it's better than problems and divorce I suppose...

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Yeah, that's what I and many of my other friends do, although I really think the women are being exploited.

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Yeah, that's what I and many of my other friends do, although I really think the women are being exploited.

Hmmm....I suppose it's up to the women to decide that. Is it exploitation if a person decides to do it, and is fine with it, rather than being coerced? I don't know, but even though it might be fun for a short while to have a woman do whatever I said, it would get very old, very fast.

You know, I never directly answered the OP, except to shamelessly plug my most excellent blog. I didn't vote in this poll. If these questions came up on an actual ballot measure, I'd refrain from voting. My religion says it's a sin and I can't really get away from that, so I can't vote in favor of it...but neither will I vote against it or impede the will of the majority (at least on this issue).

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A few questions to start you off.

Why did god choose them, and none of the millions of other equally devout, starving individuals of this world?

They chose God and God responded to them honoring his words, this can happend in every city in this world but they will have to do the same that they did, convert to God, and being devout is not enough, you have to do what God wants you to do, not what you think you should do or what yoy think is right to do, I know about this city and how were they before and after, and everybody knows that God did the change over there not the science this chapter will expalin to you why that is not happening everywhere and why is happening there and notice waht it says about praising other gods, just take a look and you will find that they are not doing what God wants them to do, so that is the result of their choice but anyway that can be changed, look and see that thoses places where misery is bigger they have other gods and they do not serve God as they are supose to.

You said that there are ither places taht are doing the same when yu said equally devout but I am sure that you don't really know waht is happening in that city and you don't know how to be faithful to God, you do not really know how to live your life the way that God want you to do it, so you can really say that other places are equally devout, I think that you know about religion but you don't really know much about God and at the end of the day knowing about God ,not religion and doing his will, is what is really important.

Deuteronomy 28

The LORD Will Bless You if You Obey

Moses said to Israel:

1-2Today I am giving you the laws and teachings of the LORD your God. Always obey them, and the LORD will make Israel the most famous and important nation on earth, and he will bless you in many ways.

3The LORD will make your businesses and your farms successful.

4You will have many children. You will harvest large crops, and your herds of cattle and flocks of sheep and goats will produce many young.

5You will have plenty of bread [a] to eat. 6The LORD will make you successful in your daily work.

7The LORD will help you defeat your enemies and make them scatter in all directions.

8The LORD your God is giving you the land, and he will make sure you are successful in everything you do. Your harvests will be so large that your storehouses will be full.

9If you follow and obey the LORD, he will make you his own special people, just as he promised. 10Then everyone on earth will know that you belong to the LORD, and they will be afraid of you.

11The LORD will give you a lot of children and make sure that your animals give birth to many young. The LORD promised your ancestors that this land would be yours, and he will make it produce large crops for you.

12The LORD will open the storehouses of the skies where he keeps the rain, and he will send rain on your land at just the right times. He will make you successful in everything you do. You will have plenty of money to lend to other nations, but you won't need to borrow any yourself.

13Obey the laws and teachings that I'm giving you today, and the LORD your God will make Israel a leader among the nations, and not a follower. Israel will be wealthy and powerful, not poor and weak. 14But you must not reject any of his laws and teachings or worship other gods.

Moses said:

The LORD Will Put Curses on You if You Disobey

(Leviticus 26.14-46)

15Israel, today I am giving you the laws and teachings of the LORD your God. And if you don't obey them all, he will put many curses on you.

16Your businesses and farms will fail.

17You won't have enough bread to eat.

18You'll have only a few children, your crops will be small, and your herds of cattle and flocks of sheep and goats won't produce many young.

19The LORD will make you fail in everything you do.

20No matter what you try to accomplish, the LORD will confuse you, and you will feel his anger. You won't last long, and you may even meet with disaster, all because you rejected the LORD.

21-23The LORD will send terrible diseases to attack you, and you will never be well again. You will suffer with burning fever and swelling and pain until you die somewhere in the land that you captured.

The LORD will make the sky overhead seem like a bronze roof that keeps out the rain, and the ground under your feet will become as hard as iron. Your crops will be scorched by the hot east wind or ruined by mildew. 24He will send dust and sandstorms instead of rain, and you will be wiped out.

25The LORD will let you be defeated by your enemies, and you will scatter in all directions. You will be a horrible sight for the other nations to see, 26and no one will disturb the birds and wild animals while they eat your dead bodies.

27The LORD will make you suffer with diseases that will cause oozing sores or crusty itchy patches on your skin or boils like the ones that are common in Egypt. And there will be no cure for you! 28You will become insane and go blind. The LORD will make you so confused, 29that even in bright sunshine you will have to feel your way around like a blind person, who cannot tell day from night. For the rest of your life, people will beat and rob you, and no one will be able to stop them.

30A man will be engaged to a woman, but before they can get married, she will be raped by enemy soldiers. Some of you will build houses, but never get to live in them. If you plant a vineyard, you won't be around long enough to enjoy the first harvest. 31Your cattle will be killed while you watch, but you won't get to eat any of the meat. Your donkeys and sheep will be stolen from you, and no one will be around to force your enemies to give them back. 32Your sons and daughters will be dragged off to a foreign country, while you stand there helpless. And even if you watch for them until you go blind, you will never see them again.

33You will work hard on your farms, but everything you harvest will be eaten by foreigners, who will mistreat you and abuse you for the rest of your life.

34What you see will be so horrible that you will go insane, 35and the LORD will punish you from head to toe with boils that never heal.

36The LORD will let you and your king be taken captive to a country that you and your ancestors have never even heard of, and there you will have to worship idols made of wood and stone. 37People of nearby countries will shudder when they see your terrible troubles, but they will still make fun of you. 38You will plant a lot of seed, but gather a small harvest, because locusts [c] will eat your crops. 39You will plant vineyards and work hard at taking care of them, but you won't gather any grapes, much less get any wine, and the vines themselves will be eaten by worms. 40Even if your olive trees grow everywhere in your country, the olives will fall off before they are ready, and there won't be enough olive oil for combing your hair. [d] 41Even your infant sons and daughters will be taken as prisoners of war.

42Locusts [e] will eat your crops and strip your trees of leaves and fruit. 43Foreigners in your towns will become wealthy and powerful, while you become poor and powerless. 44You will be so short of money that you will have to borrow from those foreigners. They will be the leaders in the community, and you will be the followers.

More Curses for Disobedience

Moses said:

45Israel, if you don't obey the laws and teachings that the LORD your God is giving you, he will send these curses to chase, attack, and destroy you. 46Then everyone will look at you and your descendants and realize that the LORD has placed you under a curse.

47If the LORD makes you wealthy, but you don't joyfully worship and honor him, 48he will send enemies to attack you and make you their slaves. Then you will live in poverty with nothing to eat, drink, or wear, and your owners will work you to death.

49Foreigners who speak a strange language will be sent to attack you without warning, just like an eagle swooping down. 50They won't show any mercy, and they will have no respect for old people or pity for children. 51They will take your cattle, sheep, goats, grain, wine, and olive oil, then leave you to starve.

52All over the land that the LORD your God gave you, the enemy army will surround your towns. You may feel safe inside your town walls, but the enemy will tear them down, 53while you wait in horror. Finally, you will get so hungry that you will eat the sons and daughters that the LORD gave you. 54-55Because of hunger, a man who had been gentle and kind will eat his own children and refuse to share the meal with his brother or wife or with his other children. 56-57A woman may have grown up in such luxury that she never had to put a foot on the ground. But times will be so bad that she will secretly eat both her newborn baby and the afterbirth, without sharing any with her husband or her other children.

Disobedience Brings Destruction

Moses said to Israel:

58You must obey everything in The Book of God's Law. Because if you don't respect the LORD, 59he will punish you and your descendants with incurable diseases, 60like those you were so afraid of in Egypt. 61Remember! If the LORD decides to destroy your nation, he can use any disease or disaster, not just the ones written in The Book of God's Law.

62There are as many of you now as the stars in the sky, but if you disobey the LORD your God, only a few of you will be left. 63The LORD is happy to make you successful and to help your nation grow while you conquer the land. But if you disobey him, he will be just as happy to pull you up by your roots.

64Those of you that survive will be scattered to every nation on earth, and you will have to worship stone and wood idols [f] that never helped you or your ancestors. 65You will be restless--always longing for home, but never able to return. 66You will live in constant fear of death. 67Each morning you will wake up to such terrible sights that you will say, " I wish it were night!" But at night you will be terrified and say, " I wish it were day!" 68I told you never to go back to Egypt. But now the LORD himself will load you on ships and send you back. Then you will even try to sell yourselves as slaves, but no one will be interested.

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Yeah I'm sure you had a lovely wedding Mike and also that you're wife doesn't let you control her. ;) But some Christians (like the good friends I mentioned) take things more literally. I mean she really did accept that he was her lord and master. She promised to obey him at all times, even when she disagreed. Now I don't think that can be right - I certainly won't want that at my wedding.

Regarding the analogy that we are to Christ as a wife is to a husband, it just seems to me that we "obey" Christ because He is superior to us and He does know better, from the Christian point of view. But I don't think we men are that much smarter than women. ;) I think I would personally interpret that analogy in the Bible as being an explanation of our relation to Christ in terms that were widely known and accepted by the society of the day. Whereas some Christians seem to use it the other way round: we all know our relation to Christ, and look, the Bible tells us we are like Christ compared to lowly women. Anyway, good to have a more reasonable representative of the faith here Mike!

Look what the bible says about that, there are other interesting passages in the bible about this topic but like you said some people do not take this the right way, they only take the part of the women but take a look at the part for men and you will se that most of crhistians men are not really doing this, and both men and women have to obey this for our own sake, just think about a couple how treat each this way, and I have to confess that I used to be like you said but them I realize that i should my part and not impose anything to my wife and like Puma said everything is working better sice and started doing my part and leave my wife to do her part just if she understand that she have to do it, I know that I was doing it worng I changed my way and everythingis better now, I am happier and so is my wife.

1 Peter 3

Wives and Husbands

1If you are a wife, you must put your husband first. Even if he opposes our message, you will win him over by what you do. No one else will have to say anything to him, 2because he will see how you honor God and live a pure life. 3Don't depend on things like fancy hairdos or gold jewelry or expensive clothes to make you look beautiful. 4Be beautiful in your heart by being gentle and quiet. This kind of beauty will last, and God considers it very special.

5Long ago those women who worshiped God and put their hope in him made themselves beautiful by putting their husbands first. 6For example, Sarah obeyed Abraham and called him her master. You are her true children, if you do right and don't let anything frighten you.

7If you are a husband, you should be thoughtful of your wife. Treat her with honor, because she isn't as strong as you are, and she shares with you in the gift of life. Then nothing will stand in the way of your prayers.

If I treat my wife with honor and I am thoughtful of her she will treat me better, the most diffucult point in this situatuion is that everybody is expecting the other one to start doing what they are supose to, but is very hard to start doing it by yourself and I started doing it and I saw the results.

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Look what the bible says about that, there are other interesting passages in the bible about this topic but like you said some people do not take this the right way, they only take the part of the women but take a look at the part for men and you will se that most of crhistians men are not really doing this, and both men and women have to obey this for our own sake, just think about a couple how treat each this way, and I have to confess that I used to be like you said but them I realize that i should my part and not impose anything to my wife and like Puma said everything is working better sice and started doing my part and leave my wife to do her part just if she understand that she have to do it, I know that I was doing it worng I changed my way and everythingis better now, I am happier and so is my wife.

1 Peter 3

Wives and Husbands

1If you are a wife, you must put your husband first. Even if he opposes our message, you will win him over by what you do. No one else will have to say anything to him, 2because he will see how you honor God and live a pure life. 3Don't depend on things like fancy hairdos or gold jewelry or expensive clothes to make you look beautiful. 4Be beautiful in your heart by being gentle and quiet. This kind of beauty will last, and God considers it very special.

5Long ago those women who worshiped God and put their hope in him made themselves beautiful by putting their husbands first. 6For example, Sarah obeyed Abraham and called him her master. You are her true children, if you do right and don't let anything frighten you.

7If you are a husband, you should be thoughtful of your wife. Treat her with honor, because she isn't as strong as you are, and she shares with you in the gift of life. Then nothing will stand in the way of your prayers.

If I treat my wife with honor and I am thoughtful of her she will treat me better, the most diffucult point in this situatuion is that everybody is expecting the other one to start doing what they are supose to, but is very hard to start doing it by yourself and I started doing it and I saw the results.

I'm wondering. Is the only input you are able to offer from your book? Do you have your own opinion? It seems that your only ability here is to include parts of your book that really do not apply to anything more than your religion. Are you so insecure in yourself not to offer an opinion of your own? Have you been manipulated so much that you can not think for yourself? The reason i ask these questions is because it seems it's all you have. I appreciate your belief in something that may or may not exist, but I do think you have nothing else to offer.

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You continue to respond with nothing more than biblical and opinionated rhetoric. One last request. Show facts, not testimonials.Show scientific evIedence to substantiate your claim that homosexuality is a disorder and can be cured, not religious fanatisisms. You continue to rant about nonfacts. SHOW THE PROOF FOR THE LAST TIME! PLEASE,PLEASE,PLEASE!

Your are asking for scientific evidence, wich means that you believe in science, this is the same than saying that you have your faith in science, wich is good, but do you really think that science can answer everything or taht science can explain everything, are you really so naive and so brainwashed to believe that.

If you do so, I would like to here from you some things about science:

What is the cause of the big bang?

How can all the matter of the universe be in a point with cero volume, knowing that cero volume it means literaly that doesn't exist because is occupying any space?

In www.answer.com you can find this: Impenetrability The inability of two bodies to occupy the same space at the same time. If this is true how is possible that all the matter of the universe was occupying the same space before big bang?

How can something occur in this nonexistent space and what it was that so strong to make all the matter of the universe that was contrated in that point to expand out of there?

Can you tell me where it was or where it is that point located?

Do you know that is the if the big bang is true there should be an "empty" space in the point where that matter was located becasue right now as science believe all that matter is getting away from that point?

Has science located that point?

Does science knows what killed the dinosaurs?

Does science knows how to cure cancer?

Does science knows how tu cure IADS?

Does science knows how the brain works?

What is dark matter made of and where does it reside?

Does science knows how to stop aging and death?

Does science knows how many stars are in the universe?

Does science knows is there is life in any other planet?

Does science knows how life came to be?

Does science knows how evolution works?

Does science knows how many species are in the sea?

Does science knows every animal in the earth?

Does science knows how big is the universe?

Does science knows anything about God?

This is not the end of my list but is the end of my shift so I will leave it there for now and before I go I will tell you that science does not knows everything, science has more questions than ansewrs, science let me with more questions than answers, and you are asking me for scientific answers? I can give you answers if you want but I am not going to give you science, If you can answer all my scientific questions then I will answer yours, is that fear to you? if it is, answer me and I will answer you.

PS: I am not using the bible on this.

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Your are asking for scientific evidence, wich means that you believe in science, this is the same than saying that you have your faith in science, wich is good, but do you really think that science can answer everything or taht science can explain everything, are you really so naive and so brainwashed to believe that.

If you do so, I would like to here from you some things about science:

What is the cause of the big bang?

How can all the matter of the universe be in a point with cero volume, knowing that cero volume it means literaly that doesn't exist because is occupying any space?

In www.answer.com you can find this: Impenetrability The inability of two bodies to occupy the same space at the same time. If this is true how is possible that all the matter of the universe was occupying the same space before big bang?

How can something occur in this nonexistent space and what it was that so strong to make all the matter of the universe that was contrated in that point to expand out of there?

Can you tell me where it was or where it is that point located?

Do you know that is the if the big bang is true there should be an "empty" space in the point where that matter was located becasue right now as science believe all that matter is getting away from that point?

Has science located that point?

Does science knows what killed the dinosaurs?

Does science knows how to cure cancer?

Does science knows how tu cure IADS?

Does science knows how the brain works?

What is dark matter made of and where does it reside?

Does science knows how to stop aging and death?

Does science knows how many stars are in the universe?

Does science knows is there is life in any other planet?

Does science knows how life came to be?

Does science knows how evolution works?

Does science knows how many species are in the sea?

Does science knows every animal in the earth?

Does science knows how big is the universe?

Does science knows anything about God?

This is not the end of my list but is the end of my shift so I will leave it there for now and before I go I will tell you that science does not knows everything, science has more questions than ansewrs, science let me with more questions than answers, and you are asking me for scientific answers? I can give you answers if you want but I am not going to give you science, If you can answer all my scientific questions then I will answer yours, is that fear to you? if it is, answer me and I will answer you.

PS: I am not using the bible on this.

Interesting questions and in some cases science is starting to answer them, but i believe you misunderstood my request. I was asking for evidence (scientific or medical) that someone has been cured of homosexuality. By the way can your book answer those questions?

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Interesting questions and in some cases science is starting to answer them, but i believe you misunderstood my request. I was asking for evidence (scientific or medical) that someone has been cured of homosexuality. By the way can your book answer those questions?

Not really but the things that are not in "my book" like you said are really important to my final goal, everything I need to live my life the best possible way is there, and I can tell you that I've been through many changes in my life, like I said I used to be an atheist and out there are still people who do not beieve in God because of me, I have spoken to them now that I believe and I don't get the same reaction in them that I got when I told them about the nonexistence of God, that time I changed thier mind to the point of making them believeing that there is no God, now I can not change them back, so it not that I need something to believe in, I lived several years believing in nothing and preaching that even in school and I can tell you that I felt great when I was doing that, but now I am sure that God exist and that he is even more real than me, and that is why I tell everybody about that, I know by own experience how blind can people be about this, and they need to know about this, is not that I want to convince people, my mission is just to tell them that there is something more, that there is a real God and that everything he said in his book is real, even when sometime you can not get any scientific proof of something that is in there, and will always be like that because God want us to believe by faith, not by proof, when Jesus was in earth people was asking him for signs to believe and he never gave a single sign in a cases like this, he did a lot of signs to people who just believed, there is comom said in church and is very true for every believer and is this: Some people need to see to believe but I see because I believe and that is complete true, there are people who need a miracle to believe but I can see a miracle because I believe because I have faith, and miracles are done by faith and there are a lot of miracles happening just everyday in a lot of churches, in hospitals, in the houses, everywhere and you can see them if you go to the right place, that is way I said that you can not find what you are not looking for, Cavalino and Murray are reading a book about the nonexistence of God, and that is what they are going to find this book is called something like the God deilusion, I am not sure about that word, and believe that I used to take the bible to show how many mistakes were in there, and believe me that I still have some unanswered questions form that time but I am complete sure that God exist and that he is real, adn because of that I don't care anymore trying to find the answer to my questions, what I really need to know is that God is out there, that he loves me, that he cares about me, and that one day I will be in front of him, and I will be happier in that day than what I am now because I did what I was supose to do, he is the boss, he is the King, he is the creator, and in my job when my boss tells me to do something I just do it, I prefer to obey God that obeying my boss, there are more benefits obeying God, you can still be search every answer in science but I am sure that you will get more and more questions as you go finding answers, so you will be in an endless road that you take you nowhere, science only can help you in this life but there is another life beyond this one and science can not do anything for you there.

I am going to give an example of something that happend in church that science can not explain and that is very real, in church you can find people casting out demons in the name of Jesus, science says that demons do not exist, but can science explain what is happening in church today, there are some good DVDs and books about this, you can go to a church witha deliverance ministry and you will see that with your own eyes, you will see that if you go and try to cast it out by yourself you will find yourself in one of this two situation, 1-the demons won't obey yuor comands and 2-They will start blaming you for your sins and will say that you are on their side, this happended a couples of weeks ago in my church with kid, he strt even balmimng people from church because not everybody in church in doing God's will and they get in trouble in case like this, do you think science can explain this? no they can not but you can find about this by yourself and them you will be talking like me, telling everybody that God is real adn you won't mind about thoses questions that you may have about God.

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Not really but the things that are not in "my book" like you said are really important to my final goal, everything I need to live my life the best possible way is there, and I can tell you that I've been through many changes in my life, like I said I used to be an atheist and out there are still people who do not beieve in God because of me, I have spoken to them now that I believe and I don't get the same reaction in them that I got when I told them about the nonexistence of God, that time I changed thier mind to the point of making them believeing that there is no God, now I can not change them back, so it not that I need something to believe in, I lived several years believing in nothing and preaching that even in school and I can tell you that I felt great when I was doing that, but now I am sure that God exist and that he is even more real than me, and that is why I tell everybody about that, I know by own experience how blind can people be about this, and they need to know about this, is not that I want to convince people, my mission is just to tell them that there is something more, that there is a real God and that everything he said in his book is real, even when sometime you can not get any scientific proof of something that is in there, and will always be like that because God want us to believe by faith, not by proof, when Jesus was in earth people was asking him for signs to believe and he never gave a single sign in a cases like this, he did a lot of signs to people who just believed, there is comom said in church and is very true for every believer and is this: Some people need to see to believe but I see because I believe and that is complete true, there are people who need a miracle to believe but I can see a miracle because I believe because I have faith, and miracles are done by faith and there are a lot of miracles happening just everyday in a lot of churches, in hospitals, in the houses, everywhere and you can see them if you go to the right place, that is way I said that you can not find what you are not looking for, Cavalino and Murray are reading a book about the nonexistence of God, and that is what they are going to find this book is called something like the God deilusion, I am not sure about that word, and believe that I used to take the bible to show how many mistakes were in there, and believe me that I still have some unanswered questions form that time but I am complete sure that God exist and that he is real, adn because of that I don't care anymore trying to find the answer to my questions, what I really need to know is that God is out there, that he loves me, that he cares about me, and that one day I will be in front of him, and I will be happier in that day than what I am now because I did what I was supose to do, he is the boss, he is the King, he is the creator, and in my job when my boss tells me to do something I just do it, I prefer to obey God that obeying my boss, there are more benefits obeying God, you can still be search every answer in science but I am sure that you will get more and more questions as you go finding answers, so you will be in an endless road that you take you nowhere, science only can help you in this life but there is another life beyond this one and science can not do anything for you there.

I am going to give an example of something that happend in church that science can not explain and that is very real, in church you can find people casting out demons in the name of Jesus, science says that demons do not exist, but can science explain what is happening in church today, there are some good DVDs and books about this, you can go to a church witha deliverance ministry and you will see that with your own eyes, you will see that if you go and try to cast it out by yourself you will find yourself in one of this two situation, 1-the demons won't obey yuor comands and 2-They will start blaming you for your sins and will say that you are on their side, this happended a couples of weeks ago in my church with kid, he strt even balmimng people from church because not everybody in church in doing God's will and they get in trouble in case like this, do you think science can explain this? no they can not but you can find about this by yourself and them you will be talking like me, telling everybody that God is real adn you won't mind about thoses questions that you may have about God.

As i have said before, i appreciate the fact you believe in something. In your case, god and the bible. My arguement has been that god and the bible should not and can not be allowed to set policy for all.If you wish to believe and live your life in this manner then I can accept that, but when it is said that all of society should accept and live life based on your beliefs I can not. I believe that homosexuality is as natual as heterosexuality, I believe women have the right to choose, i believe, as another example embryotic stem cell research is right, all of which your religion looks at as wrong. Governments should not be allowed to say same sex marriage is wrong, stem cell research is the taking of life, as is the abortion issue. These are just some of the important issues that society is now having to consider because today's society and beliefs have changed unlike your beliefs. I'm not saying your beliefs in the litteral sense I'm saying your religion.

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Some people need to see to believe but I see because I believe and that is complete true, there are people who need a miracle to believe but I can see a miracle because I believe because I have faith, and miracles are done by faith and there are a lot of miracles happening just everyday in a lot of churches, in hospitals, in the houses, everywhere and you can see them if you go to the right place,

I don't see what moral justification there can be for God judging people simply on whether they are happy to believe despite having no good reason. How can one be penalised for trusting one's own God-given conscience and rationality.

I am going to give an example of something that happend in church that science can not explain and that is very real, in church you can find people casting out demons in the name of Jesus, science says that demons do not exist, but can science explain what is happening in church today, there are some good DVDs and books about this, you can go to a church witha deliverance ministry and you will see that with your own eyes, you will see that if you go and try to cast it out by yourself you will find yourself in one of this two situation, 1-the demons won't obey yuor comands and 2-They will start blaming you for your sins and will say that you are on their side, this happended a couples of weeks ago in my church with kid, he strt even balmimng people from church because not everybody in church in doing God's will and they get in trouble in case like this, do you think science can explain this? no they can not but you can find about this by yourself and them you will be talking like me, telling everybody that God is real adn you won't mind about thoses questions that you may have about God.

Did you see the demon? Can you show us a video on youtube? I've been to many Churches and spoken to many Christians and never seen a miracle. Sorry to be skeptical and no one wants to deny these things - it's just that there's no good evidence. In fact there was a recent Harvard study that showed that prayer had no effect on patients in hospital. Also why does God do these miracles for some people and not for others? Religious people are in fact more likely to be poor, ill, die early and suffer than non-religious people. Why don't these preachers come and do these things on national tv so we can all see? Why aren't scientists invited to these Churches so that we all believe?

Regarding your science questions, we've gone over all of them before. What was the point of bringing them up? Are you suggesting the Bible gives more answers than science or that it can answer factual questions (not ones like "what is the meaning of life?") that science can't? There are unresolved questions in both Christianity and science. Everyone uses the scientific method in every day life - it's not optional - but only some add on a God. Now if there were good miracle evidence, then believing in God would be reasonable. However merely postulating a God in order to explain things about the world is not rational because He doesn't explain anything adequately imho. Likewise, rational arguments about unresolved questions in science are not persuasive arguments for the existence of God because a God-concept adds nothing to our understanding of the world.

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I don't see what moral justification there can be for God judging people simply on whether they are happy to believe despite having no good reason. How can one be penalised for trusting one's own God-given conscience and rationality.

Did you see the demon? Can you show us a video on youtube? I've been to many Churches and spoken to many Christians and never seen a miracle. Sorry to be skeptical and no one wants to deny these things - it's just that there's no good evidence. In fact there was a recent Harvard study that showed that prayer had no effect on patients in hospital. Also why does God do these miracles for some people and not for others? Religious people are in fact more likely to be poor, ill, die early and suffer than non-religious people. Why don't these preachers come and do these things on national tv so we can all see? Why aren't scientists invited to these Churches so that we all believe?

Regarding your science questions, we've gone over all of them before. What was the point of bringing them up? Are you suggesting the Bible gives more answers than science or that it can answer factual questions (not ones like "what is the meaning of life?") that science can't? There are unresolved questions in both Christianity and science. Everyone uses the scientific method in every day life - it's not optional - but only some add on a God. Now if there were good miracle evidence, then believing in God would be reasonable. However merely postulating a God in order to explain things about the world is not rational because He doesn't explain anything adequately imho. Likewise, rational arguments about unresolved questions in science are not persuasive arguments for the existence of God because a God-concept adds nothing to our understanding of the world.

I'd also like to add your very good arguement here. Religious people are largely poor and ill.These same people are the one's that finacially support the church as well. I thought preachers of god were to live as a paupor , but you see these people living lives in a materialist way, and certainly a better life than most people who support them. I believe religion manipulates the misguided for it's own purpose "money".

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I don't see what moral justification there can be for God judging people simply on whether they are happy to believe despite having no good reason. How can one be penalised for trusting one's own God-given conscience and rationality.

The simple truth is, Murray, is that to be a Christian, then you have to follow Christ and try to live your life as Christ-like as possible. It's not for everyone and it sure ain't easy, but I don't think there's any denying that if a lot more people tried to live there lives Christ-like, then the world would be a better place. That's not to say non-religious people, or atheists or agnostics can't be good people or that they are trouble makers, not in the slightest, but a world full of people trying to be compassionate, patient, understanding, etc, would be quite nice, I feel.

I think it's as MG says, it's zealots and fanatics who usually give religions, or atheism for that matter, a bad name.

Did you see the demon? Can you show us a video on youtube? I've been to many Churches and spoken to many Christians and never seen a miracle. Sorry to be skeptical and no one wants to deny these things - it's just that there's no good evidence. In fact there was a recent Harvard study that showed that prayer had no effect on patients in hospital. Also why does God do these miracles for some people and not for others? Religious people are in fact more likely to be poor, ill, die early and suffer than non-religious people. Why don't these preachers come and do these things on national tv so we can all see? Why aren't scientists invited to these Churches so that we all believe?

Regarding your science questions, we've gone over all of them before. What was the point of bringing them up? Are you suggesting the Bible gives more answers than science or that it can answer factual questions (not ones like "what is the meaning of life?") that science can't? There are unresolved questions in both Christianity and science. Everyone uses the scientific method in every day life - it's not optional - but only some add on a God. Now if there were good miracle evidence, then believing in God would be reasonable. However merely postulating a God in order to explain things about the world is not rational because He doesn't explain anything adequately imho. Likewise, rational arguments about unresolved questions in science are not persuasive arguments for the existence of God because a God-concept adds nothing to our understanding of the world.

Ahh come on, Murray, miracles mean different things to different people. If somebody did it on national TV, there would still be doubters, people who think it was a trick, etc, etc. You either believe in them or you don't, you can either trust the word of somebody who says they have seen a miracle, or you don't. In essence, why should you exepct a God that you don't believe in, to prove he exists by showing you a miracle? That would make it a no-brainer and nobody, but nobody claims that living the Christian life is easy. It also defeats the purpose of free choice - God wants to you to choose to follow him, not force you, not make you follow by proving beyond all doubt that he exists before you believe, he doesn't want you to follow him out of fear, as some people would have you believe, he just wants you to choose of your own free will.

As for homosexuality, well that's an interesting one. When I read about the stories in the Bible, admittedly a long time ago now, it made me think about people who had chosen to become sexually depraved, if you like, people who were trying to find the next sexual thrill and so had turned to gay sex, etc to seek that thrill. I don't think it really speaks about people who are born being attracted to the same sex, so I am not sure the Bible is really relevant in that situation. However, that's just my take on it.

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I'd also like to add your very good arguement here. Religious people are largely poor and ill.These same people are the one's that finacially support the church as well. I thought preachers of god were to live as a paupor , but you see these people living lives in a materialist way, and certainly a better life than most people who support them. I believe religion manipulates the misguided for it's own purpose "money".

Talk about sweeping generalisations..... :rolleyes: If you don't believe that's fine, but let's not talk rubbish about a situation that you couldn't possible know anything about. Do you go to every sick person and ask them if they are religious or not? Then is it a practising believer or just somebody with a passing nod to God? That would be about as sensible as saying everybod who is ill is a non-believer......

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The simple truth is, Murray, is that to be a Christian, then you have to follow Christ and try to live your life as Christ-like as possible. It's not for everyone and it sure ain't easy, but I don't think there's any denying that if a lot more people tried to live there lives Christ-like, then the world would be a better place. That's not to say non-religious people, or atheists or agnostics can't be good people or that they are trouble makers, not in the slightest, but a world full of people trying to be compassionate, patient, understanding, etc, would be quite nice, I feel.

I think it's as MG says, it's zealots and fanatics who usually give religions, or atheism for that matter, a bad name.

Ahh come on, Murray, miracles mean different things to different people. If somebody did it on national TV, there would still be doubters, people who think it was a trick, etc, etc. You either believe in them or you don't, you can either trust the word of somebody who says they have seen a miracle, or you don't. In essence, why should you exepct a God that you don't believe in, to prove he exists by showing you a miracle? That would make it a no-brainer and nobody, but nobody claims that living the Christian life is easy. It also defeats the purpose of free choice - God wants to you to choose to follow him, not force you, not make you follow by proving beyond all doubt that he exists before you believe, he doesn't want you to follow him out of fear, as some people would have you believe, he just wants you to choose of your own free will.

As for homosexuality, well that's an interesting one. When I read about the stories in the Bible, admittedly a long time ago now, it made me think about people who had chosen to become sexually depraved, if you like, people who were trying to find the next sexual thrill and so had turned to gay sex, etc to seek that thrill. I don't think it really speaks about people who are born being attracted to the same sex, so I am not sure the Bible is really relevant in that situation. However, that's just my take on it.

I would say that your comment about those who chase the next thrill would be considered bi-sexual because they choose, unlike homosexuality not being a choice.

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I would say that your comment about those who chase the next thrill would be considered bi-sexual because they choose, unlike homosexuality not being a choice.

It could be, I suppose, but Ben says he is just attracted to both sexes, he didn't choose to be that way. I am not sure the Bible makes the distinction between homosexuality and bi-sexuality, but it has been a long time since I read it and I did say it was just my take on it. :D

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Talk about sweeping generalisations..... :rolleyes: If you don't believe that's fine, but let's not talk rubbish about a situation that you couldn't possible know anything about. Do you go to every sick person and ask them if they are religious or not? Then is it a practising believer or just somebody with a passing nod to God? That would be about as sensible as saying everybod who is ill is a non-believer......

I would also like to add.Your sweeping generalization that the world would be a better place to live if there were more christians. I might say if there were more buddists in the world it might be a better place to live, or more muslims or more.....

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I would also like to add.Your sweeping generalization that the world would be a better place to live if there were more christians. I might say if there were more buddists in the world it might be a better place to live, or more muslims or more.....

Yes, I agree I should have made that distinction, I was thinking about it, but I forgot to add it in, sorry. I have no qualms with whatever religion people choose to believe in, or not believe in. However, a Christian isn't particularly from just one religion, a Christian is a follower of Christ. It wasn't meant as a sweeping generalisation, as your statement was, though, it was just an omission.

Still the essence is the same, I think, just because somebody might believe more Buddhists in the world would make it a better place, doesn't mean that more Christians in the world would make it a better place is wrong, or vice versa. The two aren't mutually exclusive in that sense.

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I don't think there's any denying that if a lot more people tried to live there lives Christ-like, then the world would be a better place.

Yes, quite possibly. I'm not anti-religious, I just doubt whether it's true.

Ahh come on, Murray, miracles mean different things to different people. If somebody did it on national TV, there would still be doubters, people who think it was a trick, etc, etc. You either believe in them or you don't, you can either trust the word of somebody who says they have seen a miracle, or you don't. In essence, why should you exepct a God that you don't believe in, to prove he exists by showing you a miracle? That would make it a no-brainer and nobody, but nobody claims that living the Christian life is easy. It also defeats the purpose of free choice - God wants to you to choose to follow him, not force you, not make you follow by proving beyond all doubt that he exists before you believe, he doesn't want you to follow him out of fear, as some people would have you believe, he just wants you to choose of your own free will.

:D That is indeed the essence of it Paul. I'm not asking for proof necessarily, just a good reason to believe. I mean, if He has given us completely free will in the sense you suggest, then He hasn't given any arguments/evidence either way. Why then should I believe? God is unfair if He punishes me for using my (God-given) free will to choose not to believe in Him because He didn't give my (God-given) intellect and conscience enough reason to believe.

As for homosexuality, well that's an interesting one. When I read about the stories in the Bible, admittedly a long time ago now, it made me think about people who had chosen to become sexually depraved, if you like, people who were trying to find the next sexual thrill and so had turned to gay sex, etc to seek that thrill. I don't think it really speaks about people who are born being attracted to the same sex, so I am not sure the Bible is really relevant in that situation. However, that's just my take on it.

Good points Paul.

Talk about sweeping generalisations..... :rolleyes: If you don't believe that's fine, but let's not talk rubbish about a situation that you couldn't possible know anything about. Do you go to every sick person and ask them if they are religious or not? Then is it a practising believer or just somebody with a passing nod to God? That would be about as sensible as saying everybod who is ill is a non-believer......

:lol: Yes it's easy to start to generalise here. But still, on average, religious people are far poorer than non-religious people, they die earlier and suffer more. This makes Schumikonen's point that God only performs miracles on those who believe seem somewhat implausible to me. Also it casts doubt on many other religious claims. Finally I agree with Jaq that some, but of course as you point out, by no means all, religious leaders exploit the poor.

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Yes, quite possibly. I'm not anti-religious, I just doubt whether it's true.

I have no problem with that, Murray, you are free to believe whatever you want :D

:D That is indeed the essence of it Paul. I'm not asking for proof necessarily, just a good reason to believe. I mean, if He has given us completely free will in the sense you suggest, then He hasn't given any arguments/evidence either way. Why then should I believe? God is unfair if He punishes me for using my (God-given) free will to choose not to believe in Him because He didn't give my (God-given) intellect and conscience enough reason to believe.

Well, I think there are always pointers, it's up to you whether you believe them or not, or be guided by them. Knowing your situation, Murray, you have had the pointers as it were, but you have chosen not to follow them......or should I say, not followed them yet! :lol: Your conscience has been pricked, I believe, but you have chosen to go a different way........ As I said, nobody claims it's easy or to have all the answers, well certainly not on this forum!! :D

:lol: Yes it's easy to start to generalise here. But still, on average, religious people are far poorer than non-religious people, they die earlier and suffer more. This makes Schumikonen's point that God only performs miracles on those who believe seem somewhat implausible to me. Also it casts doubt on many other religious claims. Finally I agree with Jaq that some, but of course as you point out, by no means all, religious leaders exploit the poor.

I would have to disagree, speaking from my own personal experiences, Murray, I just don't think it's a generalisation that's possible to make. Also, for every preacher you think is materialistic, there will be another who works in the worst ghetto, or is a missionary in some inhospitable circumstances, etc, etc.

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