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cavallino

Mclaren Team Orders At The Australian Grand Prix

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Although it has gone unnoticed by the press, there is very strong evidence that Mclaren used team orders at Albert Park to get Alonso ahead of Hamilton.

Mclaren are virtually unique in having used team orders from the first race of a season before, and it is unsurprising that they would do it again. The explanation given by Mclaren, that the driver ahead on the grid decides his pit strategy is of course utter rubbish, and really reminiscent of a similar lie that was used when they used team orders on the same track in 1998. Pit strategies are never cast in stone before the race, they are decided just before the first stop usually, especially in a two stop race. It is the policy of all teams that claim to treat their drivers equally that the driver ahead on track gets to decide his pit strategy first. It is even more absurd to suggest that the predecided team strategies included a just in case clause, to fuel Alonso more, just in case Lewis was ahead on track.

Alonso didn't just happen to have a couple of laps more fuel when he needed it because he foresaw the need before the race. He had it because that is the finishing order moRon wanted.

The funny thing is in 1998 moRon said that the predetermined agreement was that the driver ahead at the first corner got to finish ahead (that lie was debunked later by DC himself). According to that arrangement, it is Hamilton who sohuld have been allowed to finish ahead. Obviously, either there is a new arrangement at Mclaren, or the supposed pre race arrangement changes conveniently to put moRon's current darling at an advantage.

The other interesting fact is observing how Lewis drove. If you are a multiple world champion, and a rookie overtakes you in the first corner, any driver would react by trying to go past again. Alonso did not even try that, though it is quite possible to force a rookie into a rookie error by pushing him. Alonso did not even seem interested, which means he wasn't interested in Lews because he wasn't racing him. He probably felt the Ferrari was too fast and just settled for second place.

One more thing is that Lewis just happened to have a longer second stop, even accounting for the two laps of extra fuel that he would need. Again, rather convenient.

The press remarks are rather revealing. moRon forgot to make sure that all the people concerned were fed the same story, so we had Whitmarsh saying that the strategy wasdecided before the race start, while Alonso:

Q. (Phil Branagan

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I applaud your effort, Cav. Still, even if you were right and there were teams orders, I don't see anything worth noting there. This was not "stop 3 meters before the finish so your teammate can overtake you". Alonso not pushing to pass Lewis because he was just awaiting for the team to do the dirty work for him? Highly unlikely and you need telepathy more than telemetry to judge this stuff. I can say that he didn't push hard not because he is devil incarnate, but because he is so good sportsman that he decided to let Lewis have a try and don't risk a intra team fighting that would have hurt both. I dare you to prove me wrong.

As for the "first man who reaches the first corner gets to finish ahead" rule. That was from Mikka vs DC days. If they changed it, what then? Is Ferrari forced to apply the same intra teams rules now that they applied while Schumi and Rb were racing for them?

Sorry, but I don't see what are you so mad about.

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Juat pointing out the fact that they did :what:

What you say is not about being a good teammate, it is about a good pushover or a team player. Alonso has never been either, he freely criticized his team and teammate last year with no good reason when he had nothing to lose.

As ot your point about what are good team orders or bad team orders, I'd like to know your system. In my money, team orders implemented in a transparent manner so that everyone knows who was the faster driver on the day are better than clandestine team orders covered up by lies, which moRon and Mclaren have made their forte.

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Such strategies work when teams conspire against each other, not collude. It is impossible for one driver to have a strategy cleverer than his teammate inside a team, without it being dictatedby the team management. The reason Lewis had a less optimal strategy was because moRon dictated it. Inside a team, the right hand does know what the left hand is doing.

Yes I agree with this: Big Ron clearly ensured FA had the better strategy. Does that count as team orders? Perhaps, yes, but it's also slightly different from ordering one car to make way for the other.

I had no problem with Ferrari's blatant team orders either: I tend to like them out in the open too, Cav. They were unpopular with the fans who don't pay attention to the details of the sport, but from my own purist (and humble) pov I had no issue with them.

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Nothing more than a bigoted ferrari fan blackening opposition teams.

Provide some real proof or go away please.

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Juat pointing out the fact that they did :what:

:lol: that emoticon always makes me smile. Ok, I take note. You are right that they MIGHT have issued team orders to let Alonso win. I am just saying that I see no "blatant" display of orders (that's why I brought the Barrichello screeching halting before the line and the MH&DC issue) I can't see how you prove it as a fact. You are just giving an opinion on something that can't be proven. I respect your opinion, but it is still a long way from becoming a proven fact.

What you say is not about being a good teammate, it is about a good pushover or a team player. Alonso has never been either, he freely criticized his team and teammate last year with no good reason when he had nothing to lose.

I was just giving you the opposite interpretation on the same facts. And saving the most purist Alonso fans some typing :lol: If you want my vision of the facts: the team did help Alonso, but they did not ordered LH to slow down. It was team strategy. The same thing that all teams do. Of course, I have no means to prove it, as all this is like making constellations out of stars.

As ot your point about what are good team orders or bad team orders, I'd like to know your system. In my money, team orders implemented in a transparent manner so that everyone knows who was the faster driver on the day are better than clandestine team orders covered up by lies, which moRon and Mclaren have made their forte.

I agree 100%. I want team orders to be legal again. A team should be allowed to act as a team!

I hope you are aware that Ferrari is at least as prone to be criticized for this as McLaren, right?

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*Rebuttal Part 1*

Although it has gone unnoticed by the press, there is very strong evidence that Mclaren used team orders at Albert Park to get Alonso ahead of Hamilton.

Because its a non issue which dosent exist.

Mclaren are virtually unique in having used team orders from the first race of a season before, and it is unsurprising that they would do it again. The explanation given by Mclaren, that the driver ahead on the grid decides his pit strategy is of course utter rubbish,

Which means you cant argue it

and really reminiscent of a similar lie that was used when they used team orders on the same track in 1998. Pit strategies are never cast in stone before the race, they are decided just before the first stop usually, especially in a two stop race. It is the policy of all teams that claim to treat their drivers equally that the driver ahead on track gets to decide his pit strategy first.

Really? I thought it was how much fuel they had on that decided it, hate when physics get in the way of ideology dont you?

It is even more absurd to suggest that the predecided team strategies included a just in case clause, to fuel Alonso more, just in case Lewis was ahead on track.

Alonso didn't just happen to have a couple of laps more fuel when he needed it because he foresaw the need before the race. He had it because that is the finishing order moRon wanted.

Why if Ron wanted Alonso to finish ahead would they put more fuel in his car when they knew Lewis was very fast and could match him? surely they would have made him lighter for the qualifying if they where trying to max absolutly sure he would be ahead of Lewis.

The funny thing is in 1998 moRon said that the predetermined agreement was that the driver ahead at the first corner got to finish ahead (that lie was debunked later by DC himself). According to that arrangement, it is Hamilton who sohuld have been allowed to finish ahead. Obviously, either there is a new arrangement at Mclaren, or the supposed pre race arrangement changes conveniently to put moRon's current darling at an advantage.

Well yea we know the arrangement is whoever qualifys best gets priority on strategy. What interests me though is if the "which ever driver is ahead at the first corner" agreement is a lie and debunked then why do you think they would have used it that day? it suits you if they used that one, your getting your knickers in a twist because they didnt do what you wanted.

The other interesting fact is observing how Lewis drove. If you are a multiple world champion, and a rookie overtakes you in the first corner, any driver would react by trying to go past again.

MS and Massa US GP 2006? Kimi and Montoya Brazil 2005? now theres two things that make this events unique. One - overtaking in F1 is very hard, doing it in identical cars is impossible unless one makes a massive mistake. Two - they are teammates, how much of a bollocking do we all know a driver will get if something goes grong in this impossible situation (DC vs. Wurz in Australia strings to mind)...what happened to Montoya after he screwed and took his teammate out of the US GP? Common sense, again it isent what you want because you want McLaren and Alonso to fail.

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*Rebuttal Part 2*

Alonso did not even try that, though it is quite possible to force a rookie into a rookie error by pushing him. Alonso did not even seem interested, which means he wasn't interested in Lews because he wasn't racing him. He probably felt the Ferrari was too fast and just settled for second place.

Same as above only while not wanting to do harm to his teammate he also kept right up there because he wanted 2nd place atleast. If he got passed Lewis he would have raced Kimi and put pressure on him because he's not his teammate so dosent care where he finishes for the good of the team. Oh and if it was fixed for Alonso to finish ahead why didnt they get him away from Hamilton's slipstream in the first pitstop round and into 2nd place to put pressure on Kimi? (because he clearly had speed in reserve running behind Hamilton, running economy setting to save fuel and setting fastest lap on the same lap as Hamilton as if he was just following his pace?) It would have relieved Hamilton from having a to time WDC on his back contantly and eliminate any chances of a rookie error.

One more thing is that Lewis just happened to have a longer second stop, even accounting for the two laps of extra fuel that he would need. Again, rather convenient.

The press remarks are rather revealing. moRon forgot to make sure that all the people concerned were fed the same story, so we had Whitmarsh saying that the strategy wasdecided before the race start

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/57472

You mean the driver had a different perspective of the race then the guys sitting on the pit wall? quick stop the press! people must know his revelation!

Pat Symonds in the BBC podcast did say obliquely that Mclaren used team orders.

Ok a credibal name, not part of the team so only be trusted as opinion instead of fact though.

Then, it is rather interesting to observe just how much Lewis had to slow down to ensure that Alonso went past.

If you lok at the lap times, (here Hamilton manages to lose an incredible 8 seconds in his two pit laps, the same driver who did not set a foot wrong in the entire race.

Nice, see what your doing wrong is counting it from the time Alonso crossed the start finish line when in the pit lane compared to Lewis crossing the line when at full racing pace. Look how they compared when they are both up to full racing pace and after Alonso's outlap it is just 2.9 seconds...now unless you want to tell us Hamilton made up 4.5 seconds in one lap while in identical cars? Also dont be forgetting Hamilton was stuck behind Sato for his inlap and had a longer stop for more fuel while Alonso was right under his gearbox in the final turn so the gap was nothing to start with. This is shown by Alonso having a much faster inlap and as I said before Hamilton was fitted with new rubber to give him an initial speed advantage to try and keep ahead of Alonso which we see from the outlap difference is true. Had Sato not held Hamilton back McLaren's choice of tyre for him would have kept him ahead of Alonso...that alone blows chucks out of your conspiracy. Lets continue anyway.

Here is what Adam Cooper said in the autosport journal:

I'm guessing this wasent printed in the weekly edition or on the free parts of the site? Either way its wording is putting up suggestions but not saying they are fact, as always ofcourse someone takes them and runs with it but adds on spin.

moRon's suggestion is of course ridiculous. Such strategies work when teams conspire against each other, not collude. It is impossible for one driver to have a strategy cleverer than his teammate inside a team, without it being dictatedby the team management. The reason Lewis had a less optimal strategy was because moRon dictated it. Inside a team, the right hand does know what the left hand is doing.

So now after saying they should have used the debunked/lie of an agreement you are now saying that agreement is actually impossible aswell? :clap3:

Why did you ever go away Cav, i've missed these mad rantings that give me such joy in responding to.

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Why did you ever go away Cav, i've missed these mad rantings that give me such joy in responding to.

:clap3:

At least we can discuss these things. Lately we seemed like the CNN forum!

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You are right that they MIGHT have issued team orders to let Alonso win.

given the facts and their past record (both Mclaren and Alonso), it is hard to conclude anything else.

I was just giving you the opposite interpretation on the same facts. And saving the most purist Alonso fans some typing :lol: If you want my vision of the facts: the team did help Alonso, but they did not ordered LH to slow down. It was team strategy. The same thing that all teams do. Of course, I have no means to prove it, as all this is like making constellations out of stars.

No, it is creating a hypothesis to fit the facts. Can you giveme a reason why:

a) Alonso and Twitmarsh contradict each other.

B) Mclaren set their strategy in stone bfore the race. Note that they are implying that even if Alonso was say stuck behind Kimi on a one stopper, he would still leave his strategy unchanged, because their strategies are determined by the position o their drivers on the grid and nothing else.

I hope you are aware that Ferrari is at least as prone to be criticized for this as McLaren, right?

Ferrari are straightforward about the matter. What they say they do. Mclaren however pretend they have an equal driver policy and that they have never used team orders, despite testimony from their drivers. Ferrari have also never colluded with another team to fix a raec. In cricket you get banned for life for doing that.

Really? I thought it was how much fuel they had on that decided it, hate when physics get in the way of ideology dont you?

How much fuel you have for your first stint does not decide how much you take on for your second.

Why if Ron wanted Alonso to finish ahead would they put more fuel in his car when they knew Lewis was very fast and could match him?

surely they would have made him lighter for the qualifying if they where trying to max absolutly sure he would be ahead of Lewis.

Aha. They did put less fuel in Alonso's car for qualifying, he pitted first. Interesting theory that, that Alonso was scared of being outqualified so they put more fuel in Hamilton's car.

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Well yea we know the arrangement is whoever qualifys best gets priority on strategy.

And yet Alonso says it was decided mid race. If priority on strategy means strategy convenient to leapfrog your teammate, I wonder if Lewis is behind in the next race, will he get the same advantage? Funny how they didn't have this last year eh?

What interests me though is if the "which ever driver is ahead at the first corner" agreement is a lie and debunked then why do you think they would have used it that day? it suits you if they used that one, your getting your knickers in a twist because they didnt do what you wanted.

Sorry, I forgot that you need everything explained. Taht was a lie and the suggestion that Mclaren strategies are predecided before the race is a lie too.

One - overtaking in F1 is very hard, doing it in identical cars is impossible unless one makes a massive mistake.

Alonso has very poor self belief if he feels that it is so hard to overtake a rookie that he won't even try. No, if he was racing Lewis on track, he would actually be racing him.

Two - they are teammates, how much of a bollocking do we all know a driver will get if something goes grong in this impossible situation

But Mclaren treat their drivers equally, s##t might happen, but at least they have the moral high ground. Either they are free to race or they aren't. Which is it?

what happened to Montoya after he screwed and took his teammate out of the US GP? Common sense, again it isent what you want because you want McLaren and Alonso to fail.
You mean the driver had a different perspective of the race then the guys sitting on the pit wall? quick stop the press! people must know his revelation!

Err no, either the strategy is preordained, or it is decided at the first stop. Which is it?

Ok a credibal name, not part of the team so only be trusted as opinion instead of fact though.

And quotes from Twitmarsh, moRon and Alonso can be trusted :lol:

Nice, see what your doing wrong is counting it from the time Alonso crossed the start finish line when in the pit lane compared to Lewis crossing the line when at full racing pace. Look how they compared when they are both up to full racing pace and after Alonso's outlap it is just 2.9 seconds...now unless you want to tell us Hamilton made up 4.5 seconds in one lap while in identical cars? Also dont be forgetting Hamilton was stuck behind Sato for his inlap and had a longer stop for more fuel while Alonso was right under his gearbox in the final turn so the gap was nothing to start with. This is shown by Alonso having a much faster inlap and as I said before Hamilton was fitted with new rubber to give him an initial speed advantage to try and keep ahead of Alonso which we see from the outlap difference is true. Had Sato not held Hamilton back McLaren's choice of tyre for him would have kept him ahead of Alonso...that alone blows chucks out of your conspiracy. Lets continue anyway.

Indeed. Odd how Hamilton suddenly loses time just before his stop allowing Alonso to catch right up. How conveniently his pit stop is 1.8 seconds slower (2 more laps of fuel doens't cost 1.8 seconds. Convenient how he goes out of his way to be slower, to ensure that Alonso gets past. The new tyre does nothing of course since Hamilton's out lap is being compared to Alonso's lap beofer his in lap. Alonso's slower out lap is irrlevant, by that time he is already ahead.

Amazing how someone who didn't put a foot wrong all race suddenly screws up two laps so badly?

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Fantastic post, Cav! I applaud McLaren's effort and hope every team on the grid abuses that idiotic team orders rule...maybe then it will be revoked and we can go back to racing.

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Fantastic post, Cav! I applaud McLaren's effort and hope every team on the grid abuses that idiotic team orders rule...maybe then it will be revoked and we can go back to racing.

Agreed...

Good post Cav, and i personally feel they did use team orders and there is nothing to be ashmed abt it.

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Fantastic post, Cav! I applaud McLaren's effort and hope every team on the grid abuses that idiotic team orders rule...maybe then it will be revoked and we can go back to racing.

I hate team orders with a passion. If you cant win on your own then you dont deserve the victory.

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I hate team orders with a passion. If you cant win on your own then you dont deserve the victory.

Team order have a lot of sense and every tem should be aloud to used them as long as the drivers they are giving this arders are being paid for them, if a driver is paying to race he should not obey any team order, but as long as you are an employee of the team you are under their laws and you should obey the team and work for the team, nothing bad about this, no team hire a driver to help him improve his carrer stats, the teams hire the best driver they can get to help the team to get the best position in avery race and in every champioship, so must be ilegal to ban team orders, drivers should be there for the team not the team for the driver.

I believe that Mclaren used team order/strategy to favor Alonso, nothing wrong about this, what I see wrong is trying to cover what they are doing and deny it even when is obvious.

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Other racing series dont have team orders so why should formula 1. V8 Supercars dont have any rules to say that team orders are illegal but no team uses them. Its not good for racing and anyone who uses team orders should be ashamed of themselves.

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Other racing series dont have team orders so why should formula 1. V8 Supercars dont have any rules to say that team orders are illegal but no team uses them. Its not good for racing and anyone who uses team orders should be ashamed of themselves.

And may we hear why is team orders not good for racing????

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And may we hear why is team orders not good for racing????

A driver doesnt deserve to win if they need their teammate to help them. While they are teammates they are still competitors and should be able to race each other.

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Fantastic post, Cav! I applaud McLaren's effort and hope every team on the grid abuses that idiotic team orders rule...maybe then it will be revoked and we can go back to racing.

Let curse come up on them as they let our King down, thou shal expect to watch our lord crush his unfaithful team with vengance. Oh lord have mercy on their souls!

Hamil 2. Phrase 45 PSALM 009

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Indeed. Odd how Hamilton suddenly loses time just before his stop allowing Alonso to catch right up. How conveniently his pit stop is 1.8 seconds slower (2 more laps of fuel doens't cost 1.8 seconds. Convenient how he goes out of his way to be slower, to ensure that Alonso gets past. The new tyre does nothing of course since Hamilton's out lap is being compared to Alonso's lap beofer his in lap. Alonso's slower out lap is irrlevant, by that time he is already ahead.

He was behind Sato, as I said before overtaking is too hard in F1 without help from the person infront (look at Button vs. Rubens, stuck behind for like 15 laps then when he finally is ahead Rubens is knocking in laps 1.5 seconds faster). Maybe you should watch a race someday, clearly such basic facts are ignored when you have a vendetta.

You lose about 80% of downforce following behind another car in F1, the pitlane enterance is a long curve which demands grip (Webber spun going in because of a faulty fuel flap disrupting the aero on his rear wing, that nothing compared to the distruption caused by a SA disturping front, mid and rear wings) so Hamilton didnt have the pleasure of going full trottle up to the limiter.

You compare the outlaps with Hamilton with the new tyre advantage and Alonso on lower fuel but Hamilton have a big speed advantage, that confirms the well known characteristic of Bridgestones having a very big speed advantage on new rubber is true (not that anyone would doubt it without some need to deny truth) and shows McLaren didnt go very much out of their way to slow Hamilton down by giving him an outlap advantage. AND AGAIN! if it did work (which you will see being used as a strategy in latter races and used by Ferrari before) Hamilton would still suffer the graining but would of had the track position which AGAIN! means alot because its so hard for an F1 car to overtake even slower ones. It was said an F1 car needs a 2 second advantage over the car infront if it wants to overtake it, add in this years harder tyres that make the rears more twitchy under braking and harder to feel the limit and that time advantage proberly needs to be even greater now.

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I dont think it was team orders. Anyway lets say that Mclaren did use team orders. Do you expect them to blatantly say in public "we changed the strategy to allow alonso to be ahead of hamilton"? I dont think so. And I dont think Ferrari or Renault or any other team would do that as well.

As for whether team orders should be allowed in F1, I think it should. Although I dont quite like seeing drivers moving aside to allow their teammates through, but the two drivers are driving for the same team and should be allowed to work as a team if they want to.

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if mclaren are using team orders without FIA or the media noticing, then well done to them!!!

Thats like applauding a athlete who is using steroids just because he hasnt been caught. What he is doing is still wrong.

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Mclaren set their strategy in stone bfore the race. Note that they are implying that even if Alonso was say stuck behind Kimi on a one stopper, he would still leave his strategy unchanged, because their strategies are determined by the position o their drivers on the grid and nothing else.

Rubbish. Teams can easily swerve their stratergies during the race, and Drivers themselves can impact it which they can do if they are smart, which is what Alonso did. He was originally only meant to pit 1 lap after Lewis. Granted, Lewis's stop was a bit slower, but Alonso would still have had the place if it had been the same speed because he had the tactical advantage.

McLaren may well have planned their stratergy with this in mind, it makes sense to give priority to the driver most likely to mount the title challenge. That however is not team orders, as there was not an order given for Lewis to move over at any point of the race. Lewis will have his moment, so why don't we stick to issues that really matter and stop trying to sling mud at the other teams. Ferrari are one of the biggest exponents of team orders going, and no ferrari fan gets negative when they do it, so just quit the mudslinging and get on with the racing!

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