Night Race Confirmed For 2008!

[Quiet One 15]

As far as experience goes, I am sure I have more hill driving experience than almost everyone on the forum, perhaps barring Andres and some of the Indians, the rest of you don't have hills big enough

We're not talking of a no ambient light scenario in the F1 case.

/quote]

Actually, to find any hill of more than 200 meters in height you need to travel 700 kilometers at least from here But yes, I have a little experience driving in the hills (not as much as to be considered an expert). I finally understood why you think it is easier to drive in the hills at night. Personally, I still feel more comfortable driving during daylight. I remember crossing the Andes mountains during the night and I ended up exhausted from the tension, but like you said those are very different conditions from an actual F1 race.

[Jem of the Shire 0]

What's the point of it? Light up the track so it's like daylight? Why not run the race in the day, then? I believe depth perception suffers at night anyway.

thats my sentiment too but I think its because big sponsors are unhappy that they pay millions to have their logo's showing in Asian races, and European customers are sound asleep not looking at their logo's. Bernie likes to pretend that its because he genuinely cares about European fans

THis is entirely relevant to this discussion but since the annoncement of the Singapore GP there is a rumour going around on a V8 Supercars forum that the organisers are very interesting in bringing the V8 Supercars over to Singapore to entertain the crowd during the day.

you and your V8's!

Am not going to argue on that subject but it was directed to Russ who actually knows Cricket and does not think it is a variant of baseball...

btw Jem, Where is the source for this article???

www.itv-f1.com (one of very few trustworthy sites)

[cavallino 2]

I know this one! It's a Picasso, right?

Van Gogh. Picasso is so overrated.

[Quiet One 15]

Van Gogh. Picasso is so overrated.

Van Gogh is one of my favorites, too. Of course, you have one ear too many to be like him

[pabloh20 1]

You can see the beam light up stuff along the way.

See above. You can effectively see around corners, which you can't in the day. And if a car is a few corners ahead but in line of sight, it may not be visible in the day due to trees/ foliage, at night you see the light beam from far away.

As far as experience goes, I am sure I have more hill driving experience than almost everyone on the forum, perhaps barring Andres and some of the Indians, the rest of you don't have hills big enough

We're not talking of a no ambient light scenario in the F1 case.

Otherwise, you are right, overtakin is perhaps equally tricky in the night, but I am talking of real hill roads, where it is hard anyway unless the person in front makes way.

Now you are confusing me - in your little sketch are you implying that I couldn't see the tree or the direction of the corner in daylight?

I have driven on country roads on many hills and there are so many other visual clues as to the way the road goes that you just can't get during the day, also sometimes you an see through the foliage at the side or top of a car that you just wouldn't see during the night. Admittedly some corners you would know there was a car coming the opposite direction by the light shining on the foliage, but that is just one part of the equation. Also, if the car is going the same direction as you, then there is no benefit at all, certainly on the roads I drive on. Also tightening bends, or a series of bends are so much harder to pick up during the night, than it would be duing the day, this is especially true if you're driving on dipped headlights and the bend is the opposite way to the dip of the beam.

I think also, maybe we are talking about different types of road - I guess I just automatically think of twisty country roads on hills, as that is what I mainly see, which are much harder to navigate at night than during the day.

[JamesB 0]

I think a night race is a really good idea.

[cavallino 2]

I think also, maybe we are talking about different types of road - I guess I just automatically think of twisty country roads on hills, as that is what I mainly see, which are much harder to navigate at night than during the day.

I think we are, I am talking of heavily forested steep hilly roads, where the corners come so fast that you don't need to dip your lights until you see a car coming from car off.

[F1 FANatic 1]

here is my big beef with a night race

it starts raining, really hard, and you have thousands of flood lights illuminating the track. well now you have millions of gallons of water falling from the sky, every single drop will refrack light from the lights. it will turn into almost whiteout conditions, then the race needs to called short and the fans get less F1 action and sponsers less airtime. and how will sponsors like it when they see their logo on 18 twisted heaps of carbon on the side of the road. sure attrition will go up and the results will be more unpredictable but we dont need artificial atrition and skewed results,

what we need is an FIA that finally realizes that the fans need to come first and spectacle is not what we want. We want pure, white knuckle, hanging on the edge of your seat, 3 wide down the strait into a hard braking zone, Donignto 93, Copse flat out, Monza 1969 close, only man to go under 7 minutes on Nordschleife in an F1 car, take no prisoners, Spain 95, no inch giving racing and not F@!king night races.

[cavallino 2]

It is a gimmick, that's true, and whether it will add to the racing is doubtful. But I am tired of people coming up with lame reasons. Raindrops have no inherent bias against floodlights, they refract sunlight equally well. Which is why you get those 'almost whiteout' conditions in rainy races in the day as well.

By the way, it rains in Singapore, but it isn't Mawsynram, the probability of it raining so much that the race would have to be stopped is about the same as tracks like Spa. And how often has that happened?

[Moose11 0]

A serious quote function love in going on here.

As for the night race, I like the idea. I guess Europe carries a much higher viewing figure than out East and so thats why they are running it at night out there. I know i'll enjoy sitting down in the evening with a few cold beers to watch the race much more than getting up in the wee hours of the morning.

[elkima 0]

A fantastic idea, the drivers can sleep till 13 P.M.

[Quiet One 15]

It is a gimmick, that's true, and whether it will add to the racing is doubtful. But I am tired of people coming up with lame reasons. Raindrops have no inherent bias against floodlights, they refract sunlight equally well. Which is why you get those 'almost whiteout' conditions in rainy races in the day as well.

By the way, it rains in Singapore, but it isn't Mawsynram, the probability of it raining so much that the race would have to be stopped is about the same as tracks like Spa. And how often has that happened?

Rain during day is not the same as rain during night. During day the sun is usually covered and it causes a difuse light all over (unless the sun is not covered with clouds, of course, but that is not usually the case). At night, the lights are not covered as most lamposts I know are usually under clouds level, so you get direct light coming from different sources reflected on the drops.

I am no physicist, much less an optics specialist, just using common sense here.

You could argue wether vision under rain conditions at night are worse or better than during daytime, but they certainly are not the same.

[pabloh20 1]

Rain during day is not the same as rain during night. During day the sun is usually covered and it causes a difuse light all over (unless the sun is not covered with clouds, of course, but that is not usually the case). At night, the lights are not covered as most lamposts I know are usually under clouds level, so you get direct light coming from different sources reflected on the drops.

I am no physicist, much less an optics specialist, just using common sense here.

You could argue wether vision under rain conditions at night are worse or better than during daytime, but they certainly are not the same.

Well, I guess you can only go from your own experiences and guess that these would be similar in principle to an F1 rainy night race - is it easier driving during the day in the rain or at night in the rain? I also imagine the conditions will be exaggerated in F1.

I agree, Andres, the chances of having bright sunlight as well as having enough rain to make diffraction a problem, would be slim to none, I would have thought. If that is the case, then diffraction of diffused sunlight in comparison to diffraction of a point source light below cloud cover would be markedly different. As to whether it would make it unsafe in F1, I don't know until it happens.

[cavallino 2]

Rain during day is not the same as rain during night. During day the sun is usually covered and it causes a difuse light all over (unless the sun is not covered with clouds, of course, but that is not usually the case). At night, the lights are not covered as most lamposts I know are usually under clouds level, so you get direct light coming from different sources reflected on the drops.

Direct light penetrates rain better than diffuse sunlight.

You could argue wether vision under rain conditions at night are worse or better than during daytime, but they certainly are not the same.

They're better.

Well, I guess you can only go from your own experiences and guess that these would be similar in principle to an F1 rainy night race

Your own experience? When have you driven in the rain in a floodlit stadium? You think they plan to use the feeble vapour lamps that are used in streetlights for an F1 race??

- is it easier driving during the day in the rain or at night in the rain? I also imagine the conditions will be exaggerated in F1.

Under floodlights, on a one way street with the kerbs lit up for you? Night.

I agree, Andres, the chances of having bright sunlight as well as having enough rain to make diffraction a problem, would be slim to none, I would have thought. If that is the case, then diffraction of diffused sunlight in comparison to diffraction of a point source light below cloud cover would be markedly different. As to whether it would make it unsafe in F1, I don't know until it happens.

What works better in rain, a focussed torch beam, or a diffuse fogged up light bulb (the ones that aren't transparent, whatever they're called)?

[pabloh20 1]

Direct light penetrates rain better than diffuse sunlight.

No it doesn't. And it's not a question of penetrating the rain - in daylight you don't have to penetrate the rain, you can see it anyway. Really I don't know what your point is.

They're better.

No, they are not.

Your own experience? When have you driven in the rain in a floodlit stadium? You think they plan to use the feeble vapour lamps that are used in streetlights for an F1 race??

Yes, I obviously thought they were going to use street lights for an F1 night race. Don't be so facetious, Cav, or at least tell me if you have a hard time understanding the principle and applying it logically! Well, unless of course that we have spent so much time and money on trying to make artifical light behave like natural light for nothing - damn what a waste of time!

Under floodlights, on a one way street with the kerbs lit up for you? Night.

Let me be as equally facetious - when have you ever driven an F1 car during the day, let alone at night, so how come you're such an expert? Did you see what I did there in reference to the previous point??

Even so, I fail to see how driving down a one way street in the rain, even with the kerbs lit up during the night, is easier than during the day. I don't need the kerbs lit up during the day because I can see them and much more beyond anyway.

What works better in rain, a focussed torch beam, or a diffuse fogged up light bulb (the ones that aren't transparent, whatever they're called)?

A foggy light? However, neither - daylight is better and it wasn't the point anyway.

Anyway, I am not arguing it with you, Cav, if you think driving at night in the rain is easier than driving during the day during the rain, then you are quite welcome to your opinion. Obviously, I will think your as mad as a hatter, but I doubt you're going to care about that!!

[Quiet One 15]

Direct light penetrates rain better than diffuse sunlight.

They're better.

Your own experience? When have you driven in the rain in a floodlit stadium? You think they plan to use the feeble vapour lamps that are used in streetlights for an F1 race??

Under floodlights, on a one way street with the kerbs lit up for you? Night.

What works better in rain, a focussed torch beam, or a diffuse fogged up light bulb (the ones that aren't transparent, whatever they're called)?

Just for the record, Cav actually agreed with something someone else said!

My central point was "vision under rainy conditions at night and day is different". He says during night is better, so he agrees with me!

I seriously doubt you have a point about night vision being better than day's in rain condition, but, like Paul said, I never drove an F1 car under rainy conditions at night in a floodlit track. My own experiences night driving under rain make me think that vision should be better during daytime, but who knows?

As for the fogged up bulbs I guess you might be referring to translucid ones (no idea if that is the correct name)

[pabloh20 1]

Just for the record, Cav actually agreed with something someone else said!

My central point was "vision under rainy conditions at night and day is different". He says during night is better, so he agrees with me!

I seriously doubt you have a point about night vision being better than day's in rain condition, but, like Paul said, I never drove an F1 car under rainy conditions at night in a floodlit track. My own experiences night driving under rain make me think that vision should be better during daytime, but who knows?

As for the fogged up bulbs I guess you might be referring to translucid ones (no idea if that is the correct name)

Ssshhhhh!! Don't tell him that, Andres, or he will argue that he didn't agree with you!! Sorry, couldn't resist, Cav!

Well, I am glad you got the principle of what I was trying to say about using your own experiences of vision in the rain at night and during the day. I agree with you, Andres, but I guess we may both be wrong, but I can't honestly believe a man of your intellect and upstanding knowledge to be wrong, so I am happy I agree with you!

[DOF_power 0]

Could be fun.

[pabloh20 1]

Could be fun.

It could well be, or it may be dull.

As Cav says, it sounds a bit gimmicky to me. Also, I can't decide if Bernie truly wants a night race for the spectacle, or because it will fit into the European time schedule better. If it's the latter, then I think it's a poor show.

[Jem of the Shire 0]

Also, I can't decide if Bernie truly wants a night race for the spectacle, or because it will fit into the European time schedule better. If it's the latter, then I think it's a poor show.

Bernie has said a few times that the whole idea is to give viewers a better show by having live races aired at more suitable times. I dont see how a night race can improve the spectacle at all, if anything it would make it more difficult to watch

[pabloh20 1]

Bernie has said a few times that the whole idea is to give viewers a better show by having live races aired at more suitable times. I dont see how a night race can improve the spectacle at all, if anything it would make it more difficult to watch

Personally, I think the race should be at a time that is suited to the country hosting the race, but that's just me.

[F1 FANatic 1]

he wants it for neither of those two pablo, he wants it because they are paying him millions upon millions of dollars

[pabloh20 1]

he wants it for neither of those two pablo, he wants it because they are paying him millions upon millions of dollars

Indeed!

[Julie 0]

I think a night race would be good, maybe it won't be easy on the drivers but i'm sure if it doesn't go well it won't be on the calender the following year

[cavallino 2]

No it doesn't. And it's not a question of penetrating the rain - in daylight you don't have to penetrate the rain, you can see it anyway.

But it doesn't, have you seen how poor the visibility is in torrential races from the in car shots?

Yes, I obviously thought they were going to use street lights for an F1 night race. Don't be so facetious, Cav, or at least tell me if you have a hard time understanding the principle and applying it logically!

Sory, the sarcasm comes naturally. In real life people know to laugh it off, and it's easier that it isn't personal or a means of disrespect, doesn't translate so well online

The point is you said from your own experience, when of course you have no experience of driving in such light conditions. Neither do I of course, but I didn't claim to either.

Well, unless of course that we have spent so much time and money on trying to make artifical light behave like natural light for nothing - damn what a waste of time!

It works. That's why just about every sport can be played under floodlights.

Let me be as equally facetious - when have you ever driven an F1 car during the day, let alone at night, so how come you're such an expert? Did you see what I did there in reference to the previous point??

Ah, but I never claimed to have experience.

Even so, I fail to see how driving down a one way street in the rain, even with the kerbs lit up during the night, is easier than during the day.

Everything you want to see it lit up, the rest isn't. The problem in rainy races, for example in being able to see the red light in front of you from the car ahead is that ambient light means you can't see it that clearly.

I don't need the kerbs lit up during the day because I can see them and much more beyond anyway.

Ah, but in rain in an F1 car you see bugger all. Again you speak of your own experience, which is irrelevant, different speeds and different visibility.

A foggy light? However, neither - daylight is better and it wasn't the point anyway.

When the sun is out, yes. In rain, with the sun behind dark clouds, it's kind of Sh#tty.

Anyway, I am not arguing it with you, Cav, if you think driving at night in the rain is easier than driving during the day during the rain, then you are quite welcome to your opinion.

In an F1 car on a floodlit track. Big difference, and your experience doesn't count for much there.

As for the fogged up bulbs I guess you might be referring to translucid ones (no idea if that is the correct name)

Yes (translucent, I don't know about their vocal clarity ), there's some name for them.