Alonso's Team Cheating Again

[goferrarigo 0]

Sooooooooooooo drunnk but dird my revison 4 2day an all gooooood

In 2 hours you went form sober state to sooooooooooo drunk state....

[dribbler 6]

Ferrari cheated so much that the fans of F1 are now immune to being 'shocked' by cheating. No one will care about McLaren's flexible nose wing.

(See, that's the way you start controversy on this forum...)

Why, i oughta.....

In 2 hours you went form sober state to sooooooooooo drunk state....

I don't know what took him so long.

[Jez 0]

Bring on more flexing! There should be more of it in F1.

[UrKo 0]

In the grand scheme of things, who gives a sh!t? Not me.

me too, but it gives cav a reason to open a new topic

[B.P. 0]

The bridge wing really needs a central spacer on the nose cone to aid in preventing the flex. Is it just me or did the wing also look to be twisting in Cav's video???

At least Ferrari tried to hide what they where cheating with and not have it in perfect view of the on board camera like McLaren.

BTW, thanks for the footage Cav

Yep, I think it was twisting. Wouldn't that disrupt the airflow?

[DOF_power 0]

Why, i oughta.....

But he's right ... not that other teams were inocent either.

[Player(1) 0]

This pulic service announcement is brought to you by the key word "unison"

Look at the wing endplates, they are unloading in unison with the bridge meaning its the whole front wing...if anything the bridge is keeping the main planes in tension reducing the flexing. This id assume is the point of Ferrari, Toyota and Renault's upper planes being attached to the nose cone, McLaren connecting the upper planes seems to do the same thing but would mean the main plane does not have to use so much material making it rigid and also conditioning the air flow to the mid and rear.

There looks like the bridge is at the pitch because the camera is not centrally mounted in the "pod" giving it a skewed perspective.

[Jem of the Shire 0]

i think the title of this thread is a bit provocative. The video didnt work very well on my computer but lets see what teh various TV pundits have to say on the matter (if anything)

[pumpdoc 2]

Just read somewhere that Matchett discussed this on Speed today, with pictures and everything. Any of our American err.. Californian fans have info on that?

Yep showed it real clear...................

[DOF_power 0]

This pulic service announcement is brought to you by the key word "unison"

Look at the wing endplates, they are unloading in unison with the bridge meaning its the whole front wing...if anything the bridge is keeping the main planes in tension reducing the flexing. This id assume is the point of Ferrari, Toyota and Renault's upper planes being attached to the nose cone, McLaren connecting the upper planes seems to do the same thing but would mean the main plane does not have to use so much material making it rigid and also conditioning the air flow to the mid and rear.

There looks like the bridge is at the pitch because the camera is not centrally mounted in the "pod" giving it a skewed perspective.

Yes.

To my knowledge there's no such thing as a 100% stif/rigid/inflexible wing on F1 cars. The amount is of flexing makes the diference between flexi illegal wings and legal ones.

[cavallino 2]

Yes.

To my knowledge there's no such thing as a 100% stif/rigid/inflexible wing on F1 cars. The amount is of flexing makes the diference between flexi illegal wings and legal ones.

Wings have to be anchored to prevent flex. There is a precedent, and moRon were one of the prime whiners last year. Very typical of Mclaren, when the furore dies down they have a go at it themselves. Shame, for a top team they display an incredible level of pettiness. At least Alonso must feel at home now.

[Jenson_Rules 0]

The wing definately flexed as watched the onboard of lewis going into turn one and when he breaked the wing bi definately dropped!

[LabradoRacer 2]

Macca is Macaca! Kill the b@stards!

[Player(1) 0]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egES48gohrc (into turn one you can referance the main plane of the wing against the suspension and see it rise as it unloads under braking)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbcaUAtJK40 (now Ferreri with the upper planes you can see the shape they make when under full load and the shape they make after unloading is completely different meaning the main plane is flexing down)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hFgsb9-i7Y (same)

These videos show the Ferrari's flexing in the same way under high load (braking for the first turn of Spain and the final turn of Malaysia) only difference is the bridge McLaren use is easily referenced against the nose and some have a keen eye and are desperate to sling mud.

In the Ferrari videos though you can see that the upper plane distorts because it is regidly fixed to the nose as demonstrated by these fine graphics I got commissioned:

1. shows no load

2. shows full load

As you can clearly see.... McLaren's stay the same while Ferrari's upper elements distort.

McLaren's front wing would be alot less likely to flatten out at load because its all one solid piece with the main planes stress being countered by the upper plane.

Ferrari's however seems to just act on keeping the main plane's shape at the sacrifice of flexing/distorting the upper plane.

This is all still legal as it was the fix the FIA wanted, it was having the upper plane lengthening under load to flatten out the main plane that Ferrari got caught on. They could make the wing planes half a foot thick but they will still flex, even if its measured in microns. You can be sure the chassis of any race car's flex in a race, common sense is used to know when its the materials natural elastic reaction to a load or an intentional dowel making it longer to flex

Might get your way if the FIA bans carbon fibre and makes the team use titanium or diamond for body panels though, its a long shot with all these cost saving scheme.

[Player(1) 0]

*double*

[Quiet One 15]

Looks like you got some classiffied schematics there! They are obviously official designs! How did you get them?

BTW, I think its more a mental excercise than anything else to judge the flexi issue by just what we can see on videos or on TV. FIA allows for flexibility to a certain degree under certain pressure. Honestly, how many of you can tell apart the flexibility of a certain part from the mere vibration of the camera and car just by watching a video on Youtube???

[Jenson_Rules 0]

i dont see how the ferrari wing is flexing at all!

[c21 0]

As to the Mclaren bridge wing, I would say that it can easily flex.

The laminate of the part would have to be very thick and therefore very heavy if it was laminated in a way that it was not intended to flex.

Given the shape and the span, it would almost need to be solid carbon in order to stop it flexing.

It is even possible that the tops of the endplates have some give in them.

[Jem of the Shire 0]

well stewards or FIA havent made any comment so I think we can assume that mclarens new bridge-wing is fine to use

[Player(1) 0]

*souce*

Saturday, May 12th 2007, 20:00 GMT

"I think you will find that, because it is measured, the whole front wing structure moves an extremely small amount," said Dennis. "It has a degree of vertical compliance but it is feathering.

"The aeroelasticity has been exploited by other teams and is designed to reduce the drag, but what you are seeing is a degree of deflection coming from the load. It is a very small amount and it is very stiff.

Damn it Ron I said it first! I demand credit.

Looks like you got some classiffied schematics there! They are obviously official designs! How did you get them?

SSSssssssshhhhhhhh you'll get them onto me *looks around nervously twitching*

Seriously thats the best picture i could find of "the fast show" guy. Sorry if no one knows that sketch, its bloody hilarious.

[cavallino 2]

Honestly, how many of you can tell apart the flexibility of a certain part from the mere vibration of the camera and car just by watching a video on Youtube???

I can't, that is why I posted stills. Player1 apparently can from a crap quality youtube video I forgot to watch qualifying yesterday I'll try to get some good shots in the race today.

well stewards or FIA havent made any comment so I think we can assume that mclarens new bridge-wing is fine to use

Non sequitur.

Anyway, let us look at what the report really says, instead of the classic bit of Ronspeak that our resident Alonso worshipper picked out:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/58771

The radical design has been examined with keen interest from rival teams, but some have now expressed unease at the manner in which it appears to flex.

On-board video footage from Fernando Alonso and Lewis Hamilton's cars clearly shows the wing flexing down on the straights when exposed to the forces experienced at high speeds, before moving back up when the car loses speed into corners.

One senior technical figure, who did not wish to be identified, said: "It looks quite flexible, but it is up to the FIA to accept it or not accept it. I would say it is quite obvious."

"I think you will find that, because it is measured, the whole front wing structure moves an extremely small amount," said Dennis. "It has a degree of vertical compliance but it is feathering.

"The aeroelasticity has been exploited by other teams and is designed to reduce the drag, but what you are seeing is a degree of deflection coming from the load. It is a very small amount and it is very stiff.

"You would all feel comfortable if you went and put your hand on it and gave it a good push. No team has voiced any opinion and the FIA considers the whole thing well within the regulations."

This is hilarious, is moRon seriously suggesting that just because you cannot push it down with your hand, it isn't a flexi wing?

It moves. Ron Dennis said i moves, we can see that it moves. We can also see that it moves at least as much as Ferrari's flexi wings or BMW's rear wing, which were both modified. If the FIA has to maintain any credibility, they have to ban this. To claim that it has no aero benefit is irrelevant, the FIA is not going to put the car through a wind tunnel to judge whether it has a benefit. This is a credibility test, we know Mclaren have often received favourable decisions in the past, we know that they have a Spanish driver and the Spanish government is throwing millions at Bernie, we know a lot of people have a vested interest in Hamilton doing well.

Was it ever proven that the flexible floor, if it ever existed was of any benefit to anyone? No, it was still banned, simply because of moRon's whining. This is a question of credibility for the sport, we need to know that this season isn't already being manipulated.

[Quiet One 15]

I can't, that is why I posted stills. Player1 apparently can from a crap quality youtube video I forgot to watch qualifying yesterday I'll try to get some good shots in the race today.

Non sequitur.

Anyway, let us look at what the report really says, instead of the classic bit of Ronspeak that our resident Alonso worshipper picked out:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/58771

This is hilarious, is moRon seriously suggesting that just because you cannot push it down with your hand, it isn't a flexi wing?

It moves. Ron Dennis said i moves, we can see that it moves. We can also see that it moves at least as much as Ferrari's flexi wings or BMW's rear wing, which were both modified. If the FIA has to maintain any credibility, they have to ban this. To claim that it has no aero benefit is irrelevant, the FIA is not going to put the car through a wind tunnel to judge whether it has a benefit. This is a credibility test, we know Mclaren have often received favourable decisions in the past, we know that they have a Spanish driver and the Spanish government is throwing millions at Bernie, we know a lot of people have a vested interest in Hamilton doing well.

Was it ever proven that the flexible floor, if it ever existed was of any benefit to anyone? No, it was still banned, simply because of moRon's whining. This is a question of credibility for the sport, we need to know that this season isn't already being manipulated.

Wow! Replace "moRon" with "Brawn", "McLaren" with "Ferrari", "Hamiilton" with "Schumi" and "Bernie" with "Bernie" and you will have exactly the same complaint us anti-ferrarists used to have about the red team.

This is not a defense of McLaren, because I also have my doubts about that wing, I am honestly amazed at how similar are your feelings compared to us Alonso fans in the past. Maybe the FIA & Bernie are actually more equanimous than we think, if they can make both pro and anti Ferrari fans feel as bad

[cavallino 2]

'Anti Ferrarists' believe that because they are a deluded lot with selective memories who will whine about Monza and mass dampers, while conveniently forgetting that Ferrari had mass dampers banned, had to modify their front and rear wings and Michael was given unfair penalties in Monaco and Hungary. You lot live in your own fantasy world where you can choose what to believe and pretend that things you can't justify don't exist.

[Quiet One 15]

'Anti Ferrarists' believe that because they are a deluded lot with selective memories who will whine about Monza and mass dampers, while conveniently forgetting that Ferrari had mass dampers banned, had to modify their front and rear wings and Michael was given unfair penalties in Monaco and Hungary. You lot live in your own fantasy world where you can choose what to believe and pretend that things you can't justify don't exist.

I never know if you are joking or if you are being serious!

[DOF_power 0]

'Anti Ferrarists' believe that because they are a deluded lot with selective memories who will whine about Monza and mass dampers, while conveniently forgetting that Ferrari had mass dampers banned, had to modify their front and rear wings and Michael was given unfair penalties in Monaco and Hungary. You lot live in your own fantasy world where you can choose what to believe and pretend that things you can't justify don't exist.

Penalties were not unfair in Monaco and Hungary.