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cavallino

Alonso's Team Cheating Again

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Great joke Quiet One :clap3::clap3: ! If it is 1 :lol: !

It's ok, don't mind me - that's right, make fun of the fat kid!

Rumour has it that he's not just bald on top, you know, he is actually the completely bald avenger.

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Only way to stop a wing from doing this (even the titanium version i proposed earlier)

Carbon fibre is lighter, they would use Titanium if it worked better. Titanium is used in the engines.

So you see theres not a single wing any team is using, or could use, that wont do what your seeing the McLaren wing do.

Maybe if you actually read my posts you wouldn't have such a huge chip on your shoulder about people ignoring you. As I already told you, the point is not that wings flex, they do. That argument went out last year, when he FIA forced everyone to ancho rear wing elements. There was nothing unnatural about that flex just like there isn't about the Mclaren wing. The precedent is that if they flex noticeably, they have to be anchored. The FIA should have forced Mclaren to use a separator at the nose, or use some other way to anchor the wing to the nose so that it doesn't move. That is the precedent, and they should make the effort to be consistent

If you really want to be anal you can attack how tyre deformation and suspension travel is causing some of this elevation change that is affecting the wing.

Where the hell does that come into it? Again, learn to read instead of trying to use fancy words that you learnt in first year of university or on google. The entirely sprung wing element is moving in relation to other entirely sprung elements of the car. How difficult is that to fathom?

Yep, only the way Ferrari do it gives alot more advantage.

How do you know? Did you model it in CFD? Are you an expert in CFD? Where do you work, what kind of work do you do? I would be delighted if we had a CFD expert on the forum (we do actually), but you are just a kid with google and shiny new textbooks with big words in them.

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I agree with Mike, I was thinking about it last night and I thought of this as another way to explain it. When an aircraft takes off its wings are bent upwards due to the lift generated by the wind speed. This in reverse with downforce created by the front wing the two end plates would bend downwards as the wind speed increased the downforce. No car would be exempt from this happening so it's impossible to ban I guess.

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If the endplates moved downwards, the centre of the element would move up. It moves down.

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If the endplates moved downwards, the centre of the element would move up. It moves down.

No it would move downwards.

Here is a very amature diagram.

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Yup. What the teams (and I'm including all the teams running an upper element) are doing is exploiting the normal downward movement at the ends of the front wings. I suppose you could argue that it is creating the same effect as a 'flexible wing' (ie: less drag on the straights with more downforce in the turns) and it is, but the wing element itself is not flexing and that's all the rules outlaw. The FIA have already accepted that the ends of the front wing will pull down, so technically the teams exploiting that aren't breaking any rules.

What I want to know is this: Why hasn't anyone challenged the McLaren 'bridge' as being another wing element? Isn't there a rule saying you can only have two wing elements (I'm too busy at work to research it..anyone know off-hand?)

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If the endplates moved downwards, the centre of the element would move up. It moves down.

You would think so, except that the wing as a whole is anchored by the two vertical struts. Those struts prevent the wing from bending upwards in the middle. The downward bend starts from the strut and increases in it's arc as you get further from the strut and ends at the endplate. The middle bends downward only on those wings with a large front area sticking ahead of the nose (like McLaren). That increased surface area would bend slightly downwards as you suggest.

EDIT: It occurred to me that the 'element' you were referring to would be the bridge. Since the bridge is anchored on the top of the endplates it doesn't bend, it simply moves up and down as the endplates move. They aren't bending, they are moving in unison to the endplates.

Edited by Autumnpuma

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Ok, I'll get back to this after looking at the race recording closely, but iirc, the middle part moves down relative to the endplates.

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Ok, I'll get back to this after looking at the race recording closely, but iirc, the middle part moves down relative to the endplates.

Middle part of the bridge or the bottom element? Here's more detail of what I noticed on the broadcast. Remember to look at the nose cam view and not the airbox view.

The bottom wing elements are anchored in the middle by two vertical struts that connect to the nose. at the other end, the bottom wing elements are connected to the endplates.

The top bridge is connected on each end to the top of the endplates.

As the car accelerates, the bottom wing elements bend downward because of downforce. the end of the wings where the endplates are bends down more than the center because the center is anchored to the nose.

Because the bridge is anchored on the endplates only, they bend down as the endplates bend down, but the center of the bridge bends in unison to the ends that are attached to the endplate. The bridge doesn't flex because the end has no lateral movement, on vertical movement.

Edited by Autumnpuma

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Ok, I'll get back to this after looking at the race recording closely, but iirc, the middle part moves down relative to the endplates.
Middle part of the bridge or the bottom element? Here's more detail of what I noticed on the broadcast. Remember to look at the nose cam view and not the airbox view.

The front wing main plane cannot move because of the mounting points to the nose cone as Mike has stated. The Bridge section moves in relation to the movement encounted by the two front wing endplates, which is ever changing as the wing is constantly under different amounts of downforce which is relevant to wind speed.

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You would think so, except that the wing as a whole is anchored by the two vertical struts. Those struts prevent the wing from bending upwards in the middle. The downward bend starts from the strut and increases in it's arc as you get further from the strut and ends at the endplate. The middle bends downward only on those wings with a large front area sticking ahead of the nose (like McLaren). That increased surface area would bend slightly downwards as you suggest.
That would seem so, but what if the struts were spread far apart and were flexible enough to allow the middle part of the lower plane to bend upward?

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If the endplates moved downwards, the centre of the element would move up. It moves down.

The rules not only include flexible but movable (As Mass Dampers) aero devices also and this one is eather moving or flexi, whatever you chose is against the rules.

Edited by Schumikonen

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It's ok, don't mind me - that's right, make fun of the fat kid!

Rumour has it that he's not just bald on top, you know, he is actually the completely bald avenger.

Stop starting false rumors (unless you have some previous experiences with him, of which i do not know off) just so you can make yourself look better....

The real problem is that the girls still love him, even if he is completly bald...

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Stop starting false rumors (unless you have some previous experiences with him, of which i do not know off) just so you can make yourself look better....

The real problem is that the girls still love him, even if he is completly bald...

Exsqueeze me?? I think you'll find that is my sole purpose of being on these forums! :lol:

Besides, he gets the girls, but he can't keep them.......<whisper> makes me think he's not completely functional <extra quiet whisper> down below <end whisper>

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Exsqueeze me?? I think you'll find that is my sole purpose of being on these forums! :lol:

Besides, he gets the girls, but he can't keep them.......<whisper> makes me think he's not completely functional <extra quiet whisper> down below <end whisper>

That's not true! My toes work 100%! Oh, you mean...that...errm...well, I can still pee with it! (Given plenty of open space because my aim is no good either!) :lol:

By the way, I just installed a 19" LCD monitor instead of my 10 years old 15"...geez is like switching to Cinerama after watching all your life through a View Master! (I know, both concepts are so old most of the younguns won't get it)

Edited by Quiet One

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I've been looking at the recording of the race and after watching some onboards of the red bulls and the renaults i can't see any flexing at all in the front wing. I'll post some videos on youtube once i get them cut up.

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That would seem so, but what if the struts were spread far apart and were flexible enough to allow the middle part of the lower plane to bend upward?

That would be interesting, but clearly it isn't what McLaren are running (if I interpret your reference to 'struts' as the two vertical struts attaching the bottom wing element to the bottom of the nose).

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I've been looking at the recording of the race and after watching some onboards of the red bulls and the renaults i can't see any flexing at all in the front wing. I'll post some videos on youtube once i get them cut up.

That would be due to a few different factors that don't really prove much. They could be running a lower downforce setting on their wings or they could be running a neutral endplate winglet. All that shows is that the teams in question (throw Spyker into that category along with Renault and Red Bull) are running less downforce. Unless McLaren have fiddled with the formula for the carbon fibre used in the front wing elements to make them more flexible....I don't know if that is possible, btw...

EDIT: If you're going to cut up the broadcast and post it on youtube please include the nose-cam of Lewis' car.

Edited by Autumnpuma

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That would be due to a few different factors that don't really prove much. They could be running a lower downforce setting on their wings or they could be running a neutral endplate winglet. All that shows is that the teams in question (throw Spyker into that category along with Renault and Red Bull) are running less downforce. Unless McLaren have fiddled with the formula for the carbon fibre used in the front wing elements to make them more flexible....I don't know if that is possible, btw...

EDIT: If you're going to cut up the broadcast and post it on youtube please include the nose-cam of Lewis' car.

In order to make the wing more flexible, you can just make the laminate thinner or use fibres of different strength/stiffness.

Unlike the rear lower wing, the front wings dont have to withstand a load test to make them legal (they may have to pass a flexibility test, bet this is nowhere near as stringent as the rear lower wing)

For the record the "struts" are usually referred to as the front wing/ nose pylons.

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In order to make the wing more flexible, you can just make the laminate thinner or use fibres of different strength/stiffness.

Unlike the rear lower wing, the front wings dont have to withstand a load test to make them legal (they may have to pass a flexibility test, bet this is nowhere near as stringent as the rear lower wing)

For the record the "struts" are usually referred to as the front wing/ nose pylons.

Good post! Yes, front wing/nose pylon is exactly the part of the car I was referring to with my highly inaccurate term 'strut'.....

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