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cavallino

So Err Can We Let That One Rest Now?

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About time he made one, considering that he had been making the same for other teams for at least two years.

So by your own words, Ferrari used team orders in contravention to the rules and Max made allowances for them to do so in '06. Just so we're straight on that. Sure other teams are probably guilty as well, but it's important to establish you lump Ferrari in with those other teams.

Huh? Which team that has actually won championships hasn't used team orders? Lotus? Williams? Mclaren? Why single out Ferrari and then make an extrapolation over 25 years in the future?

It's happened, using your own posts as an example, many times since Gilles' day. It's important to establish that because it lends a bit more proof that if Ferrari used team orders in the past, and indeed according to you was allowed to in '06 by Max, it's reasonable..nay...almost certain that they would use team orders again in '07. Perhaps to the detriment of MS. That directly relates to this thread.

Typical, you always believe exactly what you want to, and just claim that every other report is false.

The only news site I have listed is gp2006.com, who never publish such tripe. I only listed grandprix.com for their archives, which you'd notice if you'd actually looked at the resource thread before jumping the gun. Most of the stuff published about the silly season turns out to be wrong, even from semi-reputable (if that) sources that you have listed.

Nevertheless, the sites I have cited as being my source are considered by many to be reputable and are the same ones listed by you in the 'resources' thread. I notice you like to quote Autosport quite a bit. Did you know the owner of grandprix.com, Joe Saward was a highly-respected editor for Autosport? Be careful who you label as putting out 'tripe'.

The only other source worth bothering with when it comes to Kimi, Turun Sanomat had said long ago that Kimi was going to Ferrari come what may. In fact, their main correspondent (Heikki Kulta iirc) staked his reputation on it, when the press you read was spouting all this crap, he had said that Kimi was going to Ferrari, irrelevant of what Michael did. He was a lone voice for many months, since Ferrari refused to confirm anything, while your sites were talking of clauses, the Mole was spouting crap as usual and F1-live was sending him to Renault.

Let's assume you are correct here. If Ferrari were in no danger of losing Kimi, why did Michael announce his retirement mid-season? Why not wait until the end of the year?

You haven't proved anything, all you have to support yourself is a news report that was rubbish.

Neither one of us can prove anything really. It's important to remind everyone reading that despite your sureity, you also cannot prove your point beyond any doubt. A news report that was rubbish? It was many different reports from quite a few outlets. All speculation of course, but so is your initial premise in your original post. You back it up with team quotes, that, as you like to point out with Renault and McLaren, are to be doubted above all else.

Of course it does, we have a point of reference now. I don't think Kimi is doing any worse than he was in the past.

As you see it. Others see it differently. Kimi was widely regarded last year as being the fastest man in F1, barring MS. Certainly he was viewed as being faster than Massa.

He's dealt with plenty of competition. He thrashed all of them, so it is convenient to pretend that everyone he drove against was a no hoper. Everyone except Massa's mum (and me) believed that Massa was taken as a one year stop gap because he would be prepared to act as a lapdog. Instead, he surprised many people and was allowed to race Michael for most of the season until the championship was really on the line. Remember Turkey? Look at Alonso struggling against a rookie.

I'll grant that you saw Massa's potential before most people did. That is no proof, however, that Mikey saw it. It also doesn't prove that MS wasn't afraid of Kimi's speed.

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I personally cant imagine Kimi having a good laugh at anything.

That proves my point perfectly. In the motorhome i bet he does stand up whilst wearing a tutu.

My answer to that question is his performance in the last race, it's difficult to believe that someone who drives like that could be tired of being in this sport, anyway I hear him saying that he did enjoy the races but he was tired about testing, he said that he felt that he didn't need to be doing that to himself and his family, he was talking about all the time he was spending testing and traveling to testing instead of being with his family, that could explain why he looks so motivated in races and being tired about the sport just because of the testings, but to me even knowing this is hard to believe, IMO and this is no joke, I think that he was under pressure from his wife and who knows if somebody else to stop and start enjoying his fortune, I said this aonce before here, I read that his wife said 'I am happy that everything is over and we got out of this with just one broken leg" I could feel his pain when he was anouncing his retirement, I felt like it was a hard decition for him and like he was doing something again his will, probably I felt this way because he was doing something against my will, I wanted him to stay for another ten years but...you know the story F1 is not the same without him, just one boring race after another, nothing happend after the fisrt pit stop, and that's F1 today.

My answer to that would be that Michael was the consumate professional and that is why he drove with such vigour in Brazil. As i state in my sig' pic'; he was still brilliant. And that brilliance was demonstrated by the fact that even though he had made the decision to call time on his career, he still delivered.

Imagine a parent bieng completely exhausted after a hard days work, being asked to do something taxing by their child. A great parent will still carry out the task out of love and devotion. I believe this analogy is similar to how Michael may have been feeling.

A man disgruntled and yet still full of the desire to go racing would be racing in another team. He certainly wouldn't be hanging around in the wings, coming to races.

No, i believe Michael had had enough and that his exit, just like the majority of his career, was brillinatly judged.

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If Kimi needs time to settle down, he could start by attending post race debriefs instead of going off mid race.

he probably knew that Schuey was sticking his nose where it doesnt belong (by attending the debrief), so kimi decided not to bother

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So by your own words, Ferrari used team orders in contravention to the rules and Max made allowances for them to do so in '06. Just so we're straight on that.

No, Max made allowances for eveyone to use team orders. Big difference there, stop trying to put words in my mouth. He made the allowances after a stupid rule was brought in to pacify a hysterical biased press and the usual hypocrites in the paddock, and was being consistently abused by teams other than Ferrari, the very teams that asked for the rule.

Sure other teams are probably guilty as well, but it's important to establish you lump Ferrari in with those other teams.

Oh please. Go back to that race last season and see my comments, if I ever denied that they used team orders. Which race was it anyway, I have completely forgotten.

Ok, it was Suzuka, at the start.

It's happened, using your own posts as an example, many times since Gilles' day. It's important to establish that because it lends a bit more proof that if Ferrari used team orders in the past, and indeed according to you was allowed to in '06 by Max, it's reasonable..nay...almost certain that they would use team orders again in '07. Perhaps to the detriment of MS. That directly relates to this thread.

Exactly, and for that to happen Kimi would have had to have been far ahead of Michael in the standings, as far ahead as Michael was at Suzuka 2006. Judging by the way he is performing right now, that was impossible.

Nevertheless, the sites I have cited as being my source are considered by many to be reputable and are the same ones listed by you in the 'resources' thread. I notice you like to quote Autosport quite a bit. Did you know the owner of grandprix.com, Joe Saward was a highly-respected editor for Autosport? Be careful who you label as putting out 'tripe'.

Autosport had a long analysis about Michael's retirement which was more balanced than the 'ran from Kimi' claims, and I don't think they ever discussed the silly hypothetical contracttual clauses, or went to press saying that Kimi will drive for Renault. Grandprix.com have appalling standards when it comes to current F1 news, especially when it conecrns Ferrari (they ran a story saying that BMW were not buying Sauber, minutes before the announcement and said Michael was getting a 10 place Penalty at Monaco, there are more, these I can immediately recall). Autosport on the other hand announced months in advance that Ross would be taking a sabbatical.

Let's assume you are correct here. If Ferrari were in no danger of losing Kimi, why did Michael announce his retirement mid-season? Why not wait until the end of the year?

For Massa - Massa would have ended up as a test driver or a drive in a poor team otherwise. And for getting the decision out of the way so that he could concentrate on the rest of the season. He would want to wait till the end of his season if he wanted to decide based on whether he won or lost. He didn't. So why wait?

You back it up with team quotes, that, as you like to point out with Renault and McLaren, are to be doubted above all else.

When there is real evidence to the contrary. When there isn't, and when there is no reason for the team to lie, they are actually the best evidence.

As you see it. Others see it differently. Kimi was widely regarded last year as being the fastest man in F1, barring MS. Certainly he was viewed as being faster than Massa.

He was after 2005. I don't see how anyone who consistently followed his performance through 2006 could continue to hold that view.

I'll grant that you saw Massa's potential before most people did. That is no proof, however, that Mikey saw it.

Actually, the fact that Ferrari hired him is proof that Michael, Todt etc. did see it. The fact that he was a test driver for them means that if anyone woul see it, they would. Massa's performance is a vindication for Ferrari's top management, it's not a pleasant surprise.

It also doesn't prove that MS wasn't afraid of Kimi's speed.

The burden of proof is on you, not me. You have to prove the ridiculous notion that Michael was perfectly prepared to race Alonso while Massa was treated more fairly alongside him than he would be in any of the teams that have won championships in the recent past, and at the same time wasn't prepared to drive alongside Kimi.

he probably knew that Schuey was sticking his nose where it doesnt belong (by attending the debrief), so kimi decided not to bother

Actually, Michael made it clear that he was having nothing to do with the driver side of things. If that indeed was Kimi's excuse, he better grow up. Why is being in F1 after retiring considered the domain of old has beens who have no ieda about how F1 works now. People like Lauda, Stewart, Prost and Berger can hang around the paddock and make a complete hash of everything they do. Everyone who ever got near an F1 car has the right to decide what happened at Monaco '06, but god forbid if Michael Schumacher turns up and has a few chats with Todt, Dyer etc. We cannot have that, that would put poor widdle Kimi off his game.

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ferrari should respect their drivers' needs 100%. If Kimi doesnt like Schuey being there, then Schuey shouldnt be there

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That proves my point perfectly. In the motorhome i bet he does stand up whilst wearing a tutu.

My answer to that would be that Michael was the consumate professional and that is why he drove with such vigour in Brazil. As i state in my sig' pic'; he was still brilliant. And that brilliance was demonstrated by the fact that even though he had made the decision to call time on his career, he still delivered.

Imagine a parent bieng completely exhausted after a hard days work, being asked to do something taxing by their child. A great parent will still carry out the task out of love and devotion. I believe this analogy is similar to how Michael may have been feeling.

A man disgruntled and yet still full of the desire to go racing would be racing in another team. He certainly wouldn't be hanging around in the wings, coming to races.

No, i believe Michael had had enough and that his exit, just like the majority of his career, was brillinatly judged.

Yes, this is what I believe too, Steve - well aside from the Tutu, I think he is more a cheerleader type, myself.

ferrari should respect their drivers' needs 100%. If Kimi doesnt like Schuey being there, then Schuey shouldnt be there

Well, not entirely, Jem - Ferrari are there to win and will do what it takes to win. I know Kimi is is his own man, I don't have a problem with that, but I imagine Michael has much information/ advice to give and it wouldn't hurt him to listen. That's if any of this is true, of course.

As for the original topic - well I have said it before, but I honestly don't think any anybody who reaches the pinnacle of any sport will fear another competitor, I don't think it's in their mental make up, in fact I believe it can't be in their mental make up, otherwise they would never reach the pinnacle of the sport, certainly not in the way MS has done. I also think MS would have been in a win-win situation - Kimi would have been expected to beat the 'old master' considering Kimi's widely regarded status as one of the fastest currently in F1, regardless of whether it's true or not. Brundle was the only one I can really remember having the opinion that MS would have more than held his own against Kimi. However, looking at the season so far, as that is the only partial evidence we have, then I guess it's down to invidual opinion on how it would have panned out.

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ferrari should respect their drivers' needs 100%. If Kimi doesnt like Schuey being there, then Schuey shouldnt be there

No, drivers don't make management decisions, especially drivers like Kimi who don't want any part in anything beyond driving the car. If the Ferrari management is happy with Michael as an occasional consultant. he has to bloody well live with it.

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No, drivers don't make management decisions, especially drivers like Kimi who don't want any part in anything beyond driving the car. If the Ferrari management is happy with Michael as an occasional consultant. he has to bloody well live with it.

I agree that Kimi should toe the line but only a fool would ignore the sensitive nature of Michael's prescence. Massa has been there a while and he enjoys the cosseting nature of the Todt treatment. That and the fact that he was never his own man. He had to be brought on, developed and taught. For that reason he will lap up any guidance or advise from Michael.

Kimi is gifted and is trying to make his mark by extracting the potential of the car by establishing his own corner. He won't do that whilst Michael is poking around. As much as i love the great man, unless he is designated a role and given a clear path within the team for all to understand, he should step aside. His prescence will only cause suspicion of intent within the Kimi ranks and that is counter productive.

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I agree that Kimi should toe the line but only a fool would ignore the sensitive nature of Michael's prescence. Massa has been there a while and he enjoys the cosseting nature of the Todt treatment. That and the fact that he was never his own man. He had to be brought on, developed and taught. For that reason he will lap up any guidance or advise from Michael.

Kimi is gifted and is trying to make his mark by extracting the potential of the car by establishing his own corner. He won't do that whilst Michael is poking around. As much as i love the great man, unless he is designated a role and given a clear path within the team for all to understand, he should step aside. His prescence will only cause suspicion of intent within the Kimi ranks and that is counter productive.

I hadn't really thought of it like that, Steve, but it's a good point. However, I still think something inside of Kimi should register that MS may be worth listening to, defined role or not. To quote a film - you use what you have learnt and take it past where you found it. Or something like that, but you get the general idea! :lol:

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I hadn't really thought of it like that, Steve, but it's a good point. However, I still think something inside of Kimi should register that MS may be worth listening to, defined role or not. To quote a film - you use what you have learnt and take it past where you found it. Or something like that, but you get the general idea! :lol:

What is it exactly that Kimi is supposed to learn form Michael? Massa was erratic, inconsistent and not fast enough. He is and has learned to address all three. What area is Kimi lacking in that he is supposed to learn?

If mid-season there is a glaring omission in his portfolio then i agree that advising Kimi would be a good thing. But to do that at this stage is to disrespect his talent and shows a distinct lack of trust in his understanding of the importance of his role.

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What is it exactly that Kimi is supposed to learn form Michael? Massa was erratic, inconsistent and not fast enough. He is and has learned to address all three. What area is Kimi lacking in that he is supposed to learn?

If mid-season there is a glaring omission in his portfolio then i agree that advising Kimi would be a good thing. But to do that at this stage is to disrespect his talent and shows a distinct lack of trust in his understanding of the importance of his role.

Well, I guess it's just different point of view - I always think there is something to be learnt, as it's impossible to know it all, and I believe in using every available resource.

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Well, I guess it's just different point of view - I always think there is something to be learnt, as it's impossible to know it all, and I believe in using every available resource.

I can't disagree with that. I just think that unless Michael has something valid to say that will add real value to Kimi's campaign what's the point of having him around? And it's this information, specifically, that i'm intrigued to learn about. As i said, there are no gaping holes in Kimi's armour. If there were i would agree he should lap it up; he would be silly not to.

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I can't disagree with that. I just think that unless Michael has something valid to say that will add real value to Kimi's campaign what's the point of having him around? And it's this information, specifically, that i'm intrigued to learn about. As i said, there are no gaping holes in Kimi's armour. If there were i would agree he should lap it up; he would be silly not to.

Yep - I hadn't really thought about it from another perspective until your earlier post, Steve, and I think you may have a point.

The only thing I have seen about Michael's input, was that it was not driver related, but it was very useful :eusa_think:

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No, drivers don't make management decisions, especially drivers like Kimi who don't want any part in anything beyond driving the car. If the Ferrari management is happy with Michael as an occasional consultant. he has to bloody well live with it.

Are you sure Schumacher's contribution is that important...

I guess it is more like with the other old champions, they keep hanging around, because have nothing else to do.

I guess Kimi has done as much or more that Massa to test and develope the car this season, so there shouldn't be much complaining in that area.

And when it comes to speed, the difference is couple of tenths to Massa. Taken Kimi has developed the car couple of months and Massa many years with his engineers, the difference is not very big.

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Maybe Michael is making a big difference to Felipe and he is fascinated to see how far he can take him. If he can't push his own boundaries anymore, maybe he's getting a kick out of pushing someone elses. He was the master of getting the most out of people, afterall.

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I can't disagree with that. I just think that unless Michael has something valid to say that will add real value to Kimi's campaign what's the point of having him around? And it's this information, specifically, that i'm intrigued to learn about. As i said, there are no gaping holes in Kimi's armour. If there were i would agree he should lap it up; he would be silly not to.

I fail to see the point, Michael isn't there to advice Kimi, his being there has nothing to do with Kimi. If there's a problem, it is an ego problem, and that just implies very poor professionalism from Kimi.

Remember, Ferrari offered Michael a role where he would be on the pitwall every single race as a sort of assistant to Todt, which he refused, it's hardly Michael who is pushing himself in, rather the other way around.

It's the innate bias, that fool Stewart can hang around as long as he looks thoroughly British and keeps telling us what a jolly old fellow Button is, but god forbid that evil German dares to set foot in the paddock again.

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I can't disagree with that. I just think that unless Michael has something valid to say that will add real value to Kimi's campaign what's the point of having him around? And it's this information, specifically, that i'm intrigued to learn about. As i said, there are no gaping holes in Kimi's armour. If there were i would agree he should lap it up; he would be silly not to.

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I fail to see the point, Michael isn't there to advice Kimi, his being there has nothing to do with Kimi. If there's a problem, it is an ego problem, and that just implies very poor professionalism from Kimi.

Remember, Ferrari offered Michael a role where he would be on the pitwall every single race as a sort of assistant to Todt, which he refused, it's hardly Michael who is pushing himself in, rather the other way around.

It's the innate bias, that fool Stewart can hang around as long as he looks thoroughly British and keeps telling us what a jolly old fellow Button is, but god forbid that evil German dares to set foot in the paddock again.

I have read this somewhere, the problem is Cav, that Micheal would help Massa more than Kimi, and you know why..... For that fact*, Micheal should'nt actually get involved. He is a bias figure in that Ferrari setup.....

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I never thought in a million years Id be saying I miss Michael Schumacher. But I miss Michael Schumacher. Even with all the "cheating" and the controversy his talent I just miss and his presence on the timesheets etc. I would of loved to see Hammy and Schumy racing eachother. In my mind I just think if Kimi quits\retires he will be back. But I think thats just not going to happen. It would of been great though.

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I never thought in a million years Id be saying I miss Michael Schumacher. But I miss Michael Schumacher. Even with all the "cheating" and the controversy his talent I just miss and his presence on the timesheets etc. I would of loved to see Hammy and Schumy racing eachother. In my mind I just think if Kimi quits\retires he will be back. But I think thats just not going to happen. It would of been great though.

I miss him too but frankly that's just the way i wanted it. I wouldn't like him to come back now.

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I miss him too but frankly that's just the way i wanted it. I wouldn't like him to come back now.

I miss Ide, but I don't think anybody will back me up on this :(

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I miss Ide, but I don't think anybody will back me up on this :(

Clearly you are ill.

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Clearly you are ill.

(guess this is no a good time to say I miss Tarso Marques, as well)

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(guess this is no a good time to say I miss Tarso Marques, as well)

Has anyone actually called for the ambulance?

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