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cavallino

So Err Can We Let That One Rest Now?

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There was some sweet irony in the Ferrari garage today.

Kimi's arrival at Ferrari meant that Michael had to leave early. Michael being in the garage today, i'm sure, made Kimi do the same.

:lol: Yes indeed.

And on topic, I tend to think MS had basically just had enough.

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The one about Michael being too scared to drive alongside Kimi, since he thrashed a faster driver over an entire season :naughty:

And how good was Michael, to completely outclass a driver who is giving the supposedly fastest driver in F1 a run for his money?

I think this thread is a little foolish, almost every expert tells us Kimi need more time to settle in and should get the upper hand b4 midseason. Judge Kimi by year end, not while he's settling in. It's clear that Alonso also has this issue....

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Kimi needs more time to settle down after 6 years in F1 than a rookie fresh out of GP2?

different circumstances for different driver....

Do you believe Hamilton will beat Alonso this year?

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If Kimi needs time to settle down, he could start by attending post race debriefs instead of going off mid race.

I hope, how's that relevant?

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If Kimi needs time to settle down, he could start by attending post race debriefs instead of going off mid race.

I hope, how's that relevant?

How many times must I tell you, he's not the perfect MS, nobody is and will be. He is what he is.

I was meaning to play down the edge(insignificance) Massa has over Kimi thus far.....

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Not good enough. He is being paid as much as M.S., he should damn well make an effort.

He's not paid to sit till early morning with debriefs after a formula 1 race. He is paid to drive fast.

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Of course he is.

Well, then Ferrari should've research a "better" driver to drive for them, someone who will sit with post-race debriefs after disappointments till midnight, someone who is known for that. It's not like Kimi's ways were unknown to them. ;)

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Ok, how was Massa not treated equally last season, until very late in the season, well after the point at which Renault had started applying team orders? In fact, Michael had more reliability issues than Massa last year. So that theory is bulls##t too. And no, I am not mincing words over this, it is tiresome to hear the same baseless nonsense over and over again.

Team orders have been an integral part of Ferrari over it's entire history. Hell, I just read an autosport article this month on Gilles and he openly talks about how '79 was Scheckter's year for the championship (with Gilles dutifully staying behind the South African until the title was secured for him) knowing that in '80 the team would back Gilles. Please stop pretending that it doesn't exist at Ferrari, Cav.

As to the different theories out there, I'm not sure what was the real reason for MS' retirement. He always said that he'd retire when he started to lose his speed (i.e. the young guys were proving faster than him). I think that with Alonso's challenge, Kimi's outright demonstrable speed, and Massa's close lap times in an equal car, Michael decided that the time was upon him. I also think that Ferrari's complicated contract deals with Kimi required Michael to decide to retire a bit earlier than he would have liked, but in the interests of Ferrari, he dutifully announced when Luca required him to.

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Team orders have been an integral part of Ferrari over it's entire history. Hell, I just read an autosport article this month on Gilles and he openly talks about how '79 was Scheckter's year for the championship (with Gilles dutifully staying behind the South African until the title was secured for him) knowing that in '80 the team would back Gilles. Please stop pretending that it doesn't exist at Ferrari, Cav.

All I said is Ferrari didn't use team orders until very late in the season last year, prove me wrong. The rest is irrelevant, I have never denied the existence of team orders, I probably as much about the history of team orders as anyone here.

As to the different theories out there, I'm not sure what was the real reason for MS' retirement. He always said that he'd retire when he started to lose his speed (i.e. the young guys were proving faster than him). I think that with Alonso's challenge, Kimi's outright demonstrable speed, and Massa's close lap times in an equal car, Michael decided that the time was upon him. I also think that Ferrari's complicated contract deals with Kimi required Michael to decide to retire a bit earlier than he would have liked, but in the interests of Ferrari, he dutifully announced when Luca required him to.

There was nothing complicated about Kimi's deal, he was signed ages ago. Massa's future rested on Michael, Kimi had a signed contract.

As for the rest I will take Michael's word over it until I have reason to believe anyone else's.

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Well, then Ferrari should've research a "better" driver to drive for them, someone who will sit with post-race debriefs after disappointments till midnight, someone who is known for that. It's not like Kimi's ways were unknown to them. ;)

That's what's expected of a good driver, I am sure Kimi didn't state that before he joined Ferrari. He needs an attitude change fast. Have you noticed the lack of fake remarks from Ferrari when everyone at Mclaren is explaining in painful detail how Alonso is not worried about Lewis?

Kimi needs an attitude change, fast.

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That's what's expected of a good driver, I am sure Kimi didn't state that before he joined Ferrari. He needs an attitude change fast. Have you noticed the lack of fake remarks from Ferrari when everyone at Mclaren is explaining in painful detail how Alonso is not worried about Lewis?

Kimi needs an attitude change, fast.

If Kimi was reading this forum now he would probably have a damned good laugh at all the people who claim to have knowledge on all the intricasies that make up a drivers persona. There are forum myths and widely accepted notions brought on by insistence of opinion, nothing more. The truth lies inside the sport.

Truth be told, we know nothing. To that end, bearing in mind that Ferrari probably do know a thing or two, and that i really have no bias toward Kimi whatsoever, i think Kimi needs to do nothing. We are four races into a very long season.

I don't know much but i do know that our dear sport tends to follow reliable logical patterns. Those patterns tell me that Kimi will be there at the end and that no one inside Maranello is batting an eyelid. The peole who are, are the drama queens of the sport and they have very little to do with it.

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If Kimi was reading this forum now he would probably have a damned good laugh at all the people who claim to have knowledge on all the intricasies that make up a drivers persona. There are forum myths and widely accepted notions brought on by insistence of opinion, nothing more. The truth lies inside the sport.

I personally cant imagine Kimi having a good laugh at anything. In kimi there is the HUGE void where everyone else stores their personality.

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I think last year Massa was just as good.Simply MS is not around to make the car go even faster.I have little doubt had he been racing this year that it would be 2004 all over again! 4 poles, 4 fastest laps, 4 wins for the great German!!

Absolutely true.

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All I said is Ferrari didn't use team orders until very late in the season last year, prove me wrong.

Really? I thought team orders were against the rules? Are you admitting that they officially used them? I've had my suspicions, but now it's confirmed. So now we know that Ferrari have used team orders in MS's favor in recent years. That's good to remember when discussing MS's decision to race alongside Kimi.

The rest is irrelevant

Only to you. The rest of us will decide that for ourselves, thank you very much.

There was nothing complicated about Kimi's deal, he was signed ages ago. Massa's future rested on Michael, Kimi had a signed contract.

Nothing complicated? Of course it was complicated and it also put pressure on Ferrari to make a driver decision earlier than MS perhaps would have liked. As I remember it, Kimi was on retainer to Ferrari until about July or so. That is not a signed contract, that is an agreement of intent. As we know it, the deal was this: Ferrari had to sign Kimi to a race drive for '07 by a deadline (July or so) or the intent agreement would expire and it would have been open season for Kimi's services. At around that time, stories popped up about Renault courting Kimi with very large numbers so that applied pressure on Ferrari to sign Kimi or risk losing him for a long time. So Luca decided to sign Kimi. That left Mikey with the choice of partnering Kimi (who at that time was reckoned very fast) or decide to retire. Judging by how Massa was right up there with Mikey's times for most of the season, I'm sure he was thinking that Kimi surely would beat him because, really, who rated Massa as being faster than Kimi last year? Nobody. So Mikey made the decision to retire right around the time Kimi's contract had to be finalized.

You have your side of the story, and are quite welcome to believe it, but there's enough evidence to suggest that the initial theory we are supposed to 'Let Rest' could still be valid.

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Someone please explain why it is so hard to believe that he retired because he had had enough?

My answer to that question is his performance in the last race, it's difficult to believe that someone who drives like that could be tired of being in this sport, anyway I hear him saying that he did enjoy the races but he was tired about testing, he said that he felt that he didn't need to be doing that to himself and his family, he was talking about all the time he was spending testing and traveling to testing instead of being with his family, that could explain why he looks so motivated in races and being tired about the sport just because of the testings, but to me even knowing this is hard to believe, IMO and this is no joke, I think that he was under pressure from his wife and who knows if somebody else to stop and start enjoying his fortune, I said this aonce before here, I read that his wife said 'I am happy that everything is over and we got out of this with just one broken leg" I could feel his pain when he was anouncing his retirement, I felt like it was a hard decition for him and like he was doing something again his will, probably I felt this way because he was doing something against my will, I wanted him to stay for another ten years but...you know the story F1 is not the same without him, just one boring race after another, nothing happend after the fisrt pit stop, and that's F1 today.

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Really? I thought team orders were against the rules? Are you admitting that they officially used them? I've had my suspicions, but now it's confirmed. So now we know that Ferrari have used team orders in MS's favor in recent years. That's good to remember when discussing MS's decision to race alongside Kimi.

2006 - once if I recall correctly

2005 no

2004 no

2003 no

2002 once

2001 once

2000 I don't remember

1999 In favour of Irvine

1998 yes, more than once I think

What is your point?

Only to you. The rest of us will decide that for ourselves, thank you very much.

How is your tirade about the history of team orders relevant to Ferrari last year?

Nothing complicated? Of course it was complicated and it also put pressure on Ferrari to make a driver decision earlier than MS perhaps would have liked. As I remember it, Kimi was on retainer to Ferrari until about July or so. That is not a signed contract, that is an agreement of intent. As we know it, the deal was this: Ferrari had to sign Kimi to a race drive for '07 by a deadline (July or so) or the intent agreement would expire and it would have been open season for Kimi's services. At around that time, stories popped up about Renault courting Kimi with very large numbers so that applied pressure on Ferrari to sign Kimi or risk losing him for a long time. So Luca decided to sign Kimi. That left Mikey with the choice of partnering Kimi (who at that time was reckoned very fast) or decide to retire. Judging by how Massa was right up there with Mikey's times for most of the season, I'm sure he was thinking that Kimi surely would beat him because, really, who rated Massa as being faster than Kimi last year? Nobody. So Mikey made the decision to retire right around the time Kimi's contract had to be finalized.

From the post race press conference after Monza last year:

Q. When was the contract with Kimi fixed, it was an open secret?

JT: Honestly, I want to concentrate on what is important. What is the important thing is that we never had any kind of pre-contract, we had a signed contract, that's all, so sometimes I was smiling a bit when I saw those speculations or that private meetings to try to get Kimi, but the important thing is that we feel Kimi is a very strong driver, very talented driver. I like him as a person and he's committed for the next years with Ferrari.

So you are wrong. That's all. Luca said the same later.

You have your side of the story, and are quite welcome to believe it, but there's enough evidence to suggest that the initial theory we are supposed to 'Let Rest' could still be valid.

What evidence?

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Judging by how Massa was right up there with Mikey's times for most of the season

No he wasn't. For about a third of the races he was.

, I'm sure he was thinking that Kimi surely would beat him because, really, who rated Massa as being faster than Kimi last year? Nobody. So Mikey made the decision to retire right around the time Kimi's contract had to be finalized.

I am sure the person racing alongside him would have a bit of a clue about how good he was. Why're you doing his thinking for him? If anyone knew how good Massa was, that would be Michael Schumacher, and the top of the Ferrari management. I predicted that Massa would surprise man people last year, and I predicted that he will at least run Kimi close. So not nobody. And Kimi had a very mediocre season last year with sleepy races, rookie errors. His teammates made him look good with their incompetence. The Kimi as racing god myth needs reexamining.

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2006 - once if I recall correctly

2005 no

2004 no

2003 no

2002 once

2001 once

2000 I don't remember

1999 In favour of Irvine

1998 yes, more than once I think

What is your point?

I'll accept your numbers as I'm too lazy to research it. 2006 you say 'once' that's enough to be breaking the rules, no?

How is your tirade about the history of team orders relevant to Ferrari last year?

It establishes a pattern.

From the post race press conference after Monza last year:

Q. When was the contract with Kimi fixed, it was an open secret?

JT: Honestly, I want to concentrate on what is important. What is the important thing is that we never had any kind of pre-contract, we had a signed contract, that's all, so sometimes I was smiling a bit when I saw those speculations or that private meetings to try to get Kimi, but the important thing is that we feel Kimi is a very strong driver, very talented driver. I like him as a person and he's committed for the next years with Ferrari.

So you are wrong. That's all. Luca said the same later.

Ah, drinking that red Kool-Aid again, eh? Yes, I'm sure Jean Todt and Luca would tell the absolute truth....anyway, Jean is free to define 'contract' any way he likes I suppose. What I've said is exactly the stories that were going around at that time. You can believe the press or you can believe Jean Todt and Luca. I believe the press. You believe the guys in Red. Good for you.

What evidence?

As in what, absolute proof? None. You have none also. Both theories are not provable and I've stated the opposing theory.

Why did you create this thread? It solves nothing.

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I'll accept your numbers as I'm too lazy to research it. 2006 you say 'once' that's enough to be breaking the rules, no?

By then it had been made quite clear by the powers that it was allowed, I think it was explicitly stated too by Max. And Mclaren and Renault had been doing it for two years.

It establishes a pattern.

:lol: Team orders in Gilles Villeneuve's time establish a pattern for Ferrari in 2006, conveniently skipping all the years in between?

Ah, drinking that red Kool-Aid again, eh? Yes, I'm sure Jean Todt and Luca would tell the absolute truth....anyway, Jean is free to define 'contract' any way he likes I suppose.

Oh yes, they're lying. At least you didn't say I just made it up. So what's your source.

What I've said is exactly the stories that were going around at that time. You can believe the press or you can believe Jean Todt and Luca. I believe the press. You believe the guys in Red.

What press? You bleieve everything you read about the silly season? If you believe everything, Webber would be in Renault and Williams and Mclaren and Red Bull by now. Pedro would be driving for Mclaren - the Spanish press had announced it already. Kimi would be driving for Renault - F1-live went with that story last year as breaking news. Sure believe all that, I'll believe people who have nothing to gain by lying, and who do know the truth.

As in what, absolute proof? None. You have none also. Both theories are not provable and I've stated the opposing theory.

I have data to support my point, you have a cooked up story from trash websites.

Why did you create this thread? It solves nothing.

Why did you reply to it if you ahve a problem with it? Kimi's poor performance is new evidence, I just pointed it out.

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By then it had been made quite clear by the powers that it was allowed, I think it was explicitly stated too by Max. And Mclaren and Renault had been doing it for two years.

I don't care who was doing it before. The rules state you can't do it now. Max making allowances for Ferrari is hardly new.

:lol: Team orders in Gilles Villeneuve's time establish a pattern for Ferrari in 2006, conveniently skipping all the years in between?

Not so, just making a comment that the practice was deeply ingrained into Ferrari.

Oh yes, they're lying. At least you didn't say I just made it up. So what's your source.

They certainly could be lying. My source is my memory of stories making the rounds last season. I'm sure if you put forth even half the effort you have so far you could find them. I'm also certain you remember reading them. Sources would be the usual ones I, and you, use. Pitpass, itv-f1.com, grandprix.com, F1 Racing.

What press? You bleieve everything you read about the silly season? If you believe everything, Webber would be in Renault and Williams and Mclaren and Red Bull by now. Pedro would be driving for Mclaren - the Spanish press had announced it already. Kimi would be driving for Renault - F1-live went with that story last year as breaking news. Sure believe all that, I'll believe people who have nothing to gain by lying, and who do know the truth.

I have data to support my point, you have a cooked up story from trash websites.

:lol: I use the same sources you do and you well know it! You even had a resource thread pinned where you list among your sources the very same ones I use! Are you now saying your sources there are 'trash websites'? How fickle of you!

Why did you reply to it if you ahve a problem with it? Kimi's poor performance is new evidence, I just pointed it out.

I replied to it because the 'other theory' needed to be posted here to counter yours to let people make a semi-informed judgement. I still question why you bothered with this thread as you, like me, can't really prove a thing, except circimstantially. Kimi's poor performance now has no relevance to MS's decision from a year ago...unless you think he has a crystal ball that could see the future? Again I say that last year almost everybody except for Massa's mum believed Kimi was faster than Massa, and maybe fast enough to give Mikey stiff competition of the likes he's not had to ever deal with.

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I don't care who was doing it before. The rules state you can't do it now. Max making allowances for Ferrari is hardly new.

About time he made one, considering that he had been making the same for other teams for at least two years.

Not so, just making a comment that the practice was deeply ingrained into Ferrari.

Huh? Which team that has actually won championships hasn't used team orders? Lotus? Williams? Mclaren? Why single out Ferrari and then make an extrapolation over 25 years in the future?

They certainly could be lying.

Typical, you always believe exactly what you want to, and just claim that every other report is false.

My source is my memory of stories making the rounds last season. I'm sure if you put forth even half the effort you have so far you could find them. I'm also certain you remember reading them. Sources would be the usual ones I, and you, use. Pitpass, itv-f1.com, grandprix.com, F1 Racing.

The only news site I have listed is gp2006.com, who never publish such tripe. I only listed grandprix.com for their archives, which you'd notice if you'd actually looked at the resource thread before jumping the gun. Most of the stuff published about the silly season turns out to be wrong, even from semi-reputable (if that) sources that you have listed.

The only other source worth bothering with when it comes to Kimi, Turun Sanomat had said long ago that Kimi was going to Ferrari come what may. In fact, their main correspondent (Heikki Kulta iirc) staked his reputation on it, when the press you read was spouting all this crap, he had said that Kimi was going to Ferrari, irrelevant of what Michael did. He was a lone voice for many months, since Ferrari refused to confirm anything, while your sites were talking of clauses, the Mole was spouting crap as usual and F1-live was sending him to Renault.

I still question why you bothered with this thread as you, like me, can't really prove a thing, except circimstantially.

You haven't proved anything, all you have to support yourself is a news report that was rubbish.

Kimi's poor performance now has no relevance to MS's decision from a year ago.

Of course it does, we have a point of reference now. I don't think Kimi is doing any worse than he was in the past.

Again I say that last year almost everybody except for Massa's mum believed Kimi was faster than Massa, and maybe fast enough to give Mikey stiff competition of the likes he's not had to ever deal with.

He's dealt with plenty of competition. He thrashed all of them, so it is convenient to pretend that everyone he drove against was a no hoper. Everyone except Massa's mum (and me) believed that Massa was taken as a one year stop gap because he would be prepared to act as a lapdog. Instead, he surprised many people and was allowed to race Michael for most of the season until the championship was really on the line. Remember Turkey? Look at Alonso struggling against a rookie.

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