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cavallino

Hamilton: "it Is Something I Have To Live With. I've Number Two On My Car And I Am The Number Two Driver"

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Which is obivously something that moRon realised during the race, and not say on Friday or Saturday when Lewis was doing endurance runs?

Lewis decided to smash the cr on his super soft endurance run. ;)

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just cuz he has less fuel doesnt mean he would have had pole. it gives the car the potential to go faster, doesnt necessarily mean he will. with that logic i can easily say that kimi would have won the 2003 championship if he didnt crash on the grid from the race where he qualified in the back. or kimi would have won 2005 if he didnt have so many engine troubles or that he would beat alonso in 2006 at monaco (he was clearly faster than alonso). but thats all theory, the fact that it didnt happen is fact. u cant simply say hamilton would have been automatically faster. his strategy got compromised by 2-3 laps, however he was 10 seconds behind. even if as u claim, alonso was slower, do u seriously think hamilton could pull back 10 seconds in 3 laps? u're in delusion if u think that. plus if u look at the first stint, alonso pulled out many seconds, hamilton was heavier on fuel but if he were as fast as alonso he wouldnt have been 8 seconds behind after 10 laps. he was barely going faster than massa until massa hit traffic. and on the same fuel lewis was not faster this is proven by the fact that alonso had the fastest lap so stop with ur lies.

and his qualification strategy was never compromised. he qualified on the fuel he decided to use. he said he had 5 laps more fuel but he could easily have only put 2 laps more and qualified on that instead. then he might have gone even faster and grabbed pole. he didnt do it that's his fault. he couldnt keep up with alonso in the first stint, thats also his fault. after the 1st stint alonso had no reason to go faster any more so he just drove around until the end. hamilton lost the race cuz he wasnt fast enough not cuz ron told him to slow down. ron never told him to slow down in qualifying and since that is where he lost the race, it makes no difference what ron told both drivers in the car. ron was just trying to bring the cars home.

You have butchered the English language more than President Bush.

Do us all a favor, and L2 type with proper grammar.

That was painful for me to read.

Wez, I seem to remember that McLaren had some team orders in place before Austria 2002, like in Jerez 1997 and in Melbourne 1998. Remember that?

Let the boys free to race. Just dont shunt the cars. After all, they are in with the best drivers in the world (apart from HWNSNBM a few years ago).

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Once you start down that dark road, forever will it dominate your destiny.

The words of wisdom sounds like brilliant echoes of stealth justice. Let us forever remember these words, let it be with our thoughts always, as the boy-god has now trudged down the path.....

All hail the boy-god!!!

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The words of wisdom sounds like brilliant echoes of stealth justice. Let us forever remember these words, let it be with our thoughts always, as the boy-god has now trudged down the path.....

All hail the boy-god!!!

:bow: BTW, that first quote in your sig might need an update :whistling::eekout:

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Sainz tells Alonso to stay calm

By Pablo Elizalde Wednesday, May 30th 2007, 11:23 GMT

Former world rally champion Carlos Sainz has told compatriot Fernando Alonso to remain calm despite the British media putting pressure on him following Lewis Hamilton's strong start to life in Formula One.

There was uproar in the British press on Monday, following McLaren's decision to ask Hamilton to ease off rather than put pressure on Alonso and risk a possible accident.

Several newspaper felt Hamilton had been let down and even said the Briton had handed Alonso victory.

But Sainz, who was in a similar situation in 1994 and 1995 when he competed alongside Briton Colin McRae at Subaru, has told Alonso to keep his cool.

The former rally champion also reckons Alonso is still stronger than Hamilton.

"I think Fernando has to remain calm because he is the best, although the tension he is under can't be nice," Sainz told AS newspaper. "It's unbearable. Although Hamilton is an excellent driver, as of today he can't be compared with Alonso.

"To place someone on top you don't need to bring someone else down," the Spaniard added.

"I lived that when I was at Subaru, when the Brits didn't have a top driver in the championship and then Colin arrived. The pressure from the British press was terrible, the things they said and did.

"In every rally, every test and every stage they turned everything around to make their driver look like he was the best."

Source

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Sainz tells Alonso to stay calm

By Pablo Elizalde Wednesday, May 30th 2007, 11:23 GMT

Former world rally champion Carlos Sainz has told compatriot Fernando Alonso to remain calm despite the British media putting pressure on him following Lewis Hamilton's strong start to life in Formula One.

There was uproar in the British press on Monday, following McLaren's decision to ask Hamilton to ease off rather than put pressure on Alonso and risk a possible accident.

Several newspaper felt Hamilton had been let down and even said the Briton had handed Alonso victory.

But Sainz, who was in a similar situation in 1994 and 1995 when he competed alongside Briton Colin McRae at Subaru, has told Alonso to keep his cool.

The former rally champion also reckons Alonso is still stronger than Hamilton.

"I think Fernando has to remain calm because he is the best, although the tension he is under can't be nice," Sainz told AS newspaper. "It's unbearable. Although Hamilton is an excellent driver, as of today he can't be compared with Alonso.

"To place someone on top you don't need to bring someone else down," the Spaniard added.

"I lived that when I was at Subaru, when the Brits didn't have a top driver in the championship and then Colin arrived. The pressure from the British press was terrible, the things they said and did.

"In every rally, every test and every stage they turned everything around to make their driver look like he was the best."

Source

It's NOT funny because it's true. :meh:

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It's NOT funny because it's true. :meh:

Well, to be fair, Andres, if they can't stand a bit of bad press from just one country's media, then quite frankly they should try living in the real world.

Personally, my gut feeling is that Alonso just had enough to deal with Lewis with the cars in race trim, but it certainly puts a slightly different light on the qualifying times - just shy of 2/10s difference with between 4 and 6 laps more fuel, depending on who you talk to.

It's a little unfair to say that Lewis would have binned it if he had carried on driving the way he was, he didn't crash and he hasn't crashed in any other race, so far. He's crashed in qualifying, so what? Schumacher used to do that quite often, much to Brundle's chagrin, but it seemed to work for Schumi. I also remember the biggest slide of the day in Monaco coming from Alonso, so I guess it would be equally fair to say that he would have crashed had he continued like that? No, I don't think so either.

It's also a bit unfair to compare fastest lap times in the race as the only time Lewis had the same amount of fuel onboard as Alonso, was after the second pit stop and there were no fastest laps done then. As it was, the difference between their fastest laps was less than 1/10s which is hardly conclusive for either driver.

I have no problems with team orders, we all know they are still used, despite being banned and it was quite sensible not to let the 2 drivers push each other too much in Monaco, considering the advantage they had. What I do have a problem with is people claiming the moral high ground saying we allow our drivers to race. I do wish they would get their stories straight, though :-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport...one/6696391.stm

But Alonso said that he had been able to eke out his fuel for two extra laps by driving carefully "in the first part of the race, and the formation lap and things like that".

:eusa_think::lol:

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Well, to be fair, Andres, if they can't stand a bit of bad press from just one country's media, then quite frankly they should try living in the real world.

And if Hamilton can't take the fact that he couldn't win this GP...then what? I am not saying that this was a squeaky clean victory. I am just saying that we all know what happened, but we that doesn't mean we all know what would have happened.

As this is all about the "if's" let me give you my own "if" about the race: "if" Ron Dennis wouldn't have told them to take it easy (a moo point, I think, as LH certainly didn't ease off until the very last laps. Eithar that or he is a terrible, terrible driver because even taking it easy his car was all over the place) and "if" they would have allowed Lewis to stick to his strategy, Alonso would have just pushed harder and won it anyways. He was racing at least marginally faster and he WAS taking it easy most of the race, something easy to tell apart from when he was not taking it easy and started sliding off and flying all over in reply to Lewis charge. So, even "if" all that happened, Alonso would have won. True? False? Who knows!!! Counter-factual propositions are always true ("If Hitler had won WWII we would be all dressing pink miniskirts and we all would be called 'Tricia'" is a true statement).

Now, I completely agree that team orders are illegal (they shouldn't, but they are) so I am in favor of punishing McLaren for that. I also agree that messing up Lewis strategy was stupid, unfair and uncalled for. I just don't agree with al the other stuff :D

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It's also a bit unfair to compare fastest lap times in the race as the only time Lewis had the same amount of fuel onboard as Alonso, was after the second pit stop and there were no fastest laps done then. As it was, the difference between their fastest laps was less than 1/10s which is hardly conclusive for either driver.

I think the fact, after the first stop Alonso lapped within a tenth of Lewis on his first flyer, says something.

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It's also a bit unfair to compare fastest lap times in the race as the only time Lewis had the same amount of fuel onboard as Alonso, was after the second pit stop and there were no fastest laps done then

Pablo, I disagree. I don't think its unfair to compare several (not just one) fastest lap times during the whole race. While it's true there weren't many fast laps after the second pit stop, it's not true that only then, it was the only time LH had the same fuel as FA. At the end of both the 1st and 2nd stint he was running with low fuel, clearly competing with FA, and he was slower and less consistent than FA.

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And if Hamilton can't take the fact that he couldn't win this GP...then what? I am not saying that this was a squeaky clean victory. I am just saying that we all know what happened, but we that doesn't mean we all know what would have happened.

As this is all about the "if's" let me give you my own "if" about the race: "if" Ron Dennis wouldn't have told them to take it easy (a moo point, I think, as LH certainly didn't ease off until the very last laps. Eithar that or he is a terrible, terrible driver because even taking it easy his car was all over the place) and "if" they would have allowed Lewis to stick to his strategy, Alonso would have just pushed harder and won it anyways. He was racing at least marginally faster and he WAS taking it easy most of the race, something easy to tell apart from when he was not taking it easy and started sliding off and flying all over in reply to Lewis charge. So, even "if" all that happened, Alonso would have won. True? False? Who knows!!! Counter-factual propositions are always true ("If Hitler had won WWII we would be all dressing pink miniskirts and we all would be called 'Tricia'" is a true statement).

Now, I completely agree that team orders are illegal (they shouldn't, but they are) so I am in favor of punishing McLaren for that. I also agree that messing up Lewis strategy was stupid, unfair and uncalled for. I just don't agree with al the other stuff :D

Sorry, Andres, all the other stuff wasn't in response to your post, just the first bit! And I already said that my gut feeling was that Alonso had the measure of Lewis. :lol:

Pablo, I disagree. I don't think its unfair to compare several (not just one) fastest lap times during the whole race. While it's true there weren't many fast laps after the second pit stop, it's not true that only then, it was the only time LH had the same fuel as FA. At the end of both the 1st and 2nd stint he was running with low fuel, clearly competing with FA, and he was slower and less consistent than FA.

Lewis was called in early for both stops, so it is completely factual to say he had 2 or 3 laps more fuel onboard than Alonso until after the 2nd pit stop. What he could do with less fuel is subjective opinion.

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I think the fact, after the first stop Alonso lapped within a tenth of Lewis on his first flyer, says something.

I think the fact that Lewis qualified within 2/10s of Alonso with 5 laps more fuel says something too.

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Lewis was called in early for both stops, so it is completely factual to say he had 2 or 3 laps more fuel onboard than Alonso until after the 2nd pit stop. What he could do with less fuel is subjective opinion.

Hardly subjective. Lewis could do what anyone could do with less fuel: go faster. Lewis was needlessly subjected to a heavy fuel load then a crucial 4 laps running with low fuel was snatched from him by the team so they could fuel him 'in case a safety car was deployed', in which case Lewis would have 'lost second place'. There was no reason at all to believe that a SC would be deployed at that time. The track conditions were fine and the few accidents were local yellows that were cleared away with Monaco's usual expediency.

Lewis, for whatever reason, was forced by McLaren management to remain behind Alonso in Monaco. There is really no other conclusion you can draw from Sunday's race.

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Hardly subjective. Lewis could do what anyone could do with less fuel: go faster. Lewis was needlessly subjected to a heavy fuel load then a crucial 4 laps running with low fuel was snatched from him by the team so they could fuel him 'in case a safety car was deployed', in which case Lewis would have 'lost second place'. There was no reason at all to believe that a SC would be deployed at that time. The track conditions were fine and the few accidents were local yellows that were cleared away with Monaco's usual expediency.

Lewis, for whatever reason, was forced by McLaren management to remain behind Alonso in Monaco. There is really no other conclusion you can draw from Sunday's race.

Well, there will people who disagree he could have gone quicker, as some people on here have already suggested, Mike, that's why I said subjective.

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Well, there will people who disagree he could have gone quicker, as some people on here have already suggested, Mike, that's why I said subjective.

Those people would have been wrong. Even Ide would be quicker with a lighter car. The real question is: could Lewis have, in four laps, made up enough time to overtake Alonso, or at the very least get underneath Alonso's diffuser. Looking at Lewis' lap times just before his early pit stop, combined with Alonso's slow out-lap, it's clear that Lewis would have been, at the very least, underneath Alonso's diffuser. Either way, Lewis would have been in a much better position to challenge Alonso for the lead.

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Lewis was called in early for both stops, so it is completely factual to say he had 2 or 3 laps more fuel onboard than Alonso until after the 2nd pit stop. What he could do with less fuel is subjective opinion.

Fair point. But McLaren also said FA was called 1 lap earlier on his 2nd pit stop, which was the moment when both drivers set most of their fastest laps. Even if we took off 3 of FA's fastest laps out of the top 10, FA would still have 5 fastest laps vs LH 2. FA was faster and more consistent. That is not subjective...

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Fair point. But McLaren also said FA was called 1 lap earlier on his 2nd pit stop, which was the moment when both drivers set most of their fastest laps. Even if we took off 3 of FA's fastest laps out of the top 10, FA would still have 5 fastest laps vs LH 2. FA was faster and more consistent. That is not subjective...

Fastest laps were all over the race. The crucial laps relevant to this discussion were the four that Lewis lost right when he could have used them to take advantage of Alonso's slow out-lap.

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Fastest laps were all over the race. The crucial laps relevant to this discussion were the four that Lewis lost right when he could have used them to take advantage of Alonso's slow out-lap.

Largest part of the fastest laps were made on that crucial second stint.

Here are FA's lap times right before his second pit:

Lap 42: 1:15.514

Lap 43: 1:15.500

Lap 44: 1:15.284

Lap 45: 1:15.808

Lap 46: 1:15.440

Lap 47: 1:15.443

Lap 48: 1:15.344

Lap 49: 1:15.507

Lap 50: 1:15.869

He pitted on lap 51

Here are LH's lap times before his second pit:

Lap 44: 1:16.678

Lap 45: 1:16.080

Lap 46: 1:15.528

Lap 47: 1:15.838

Lap 48: 1:15.454

Lap 49: 1:15.570

Lap 50: 1:16.789

Lap 51: 1:15.980

Lap 52: 1:15.904

He pitted on lap 53

When FA pitted for his 2nd time he had an 11 seconds advantage over LH. There is no way, if nothing extraordinary would have happened, that LH could've passed FA even if he could have delayed his pit stop 3 o 4 laps later

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Please post Fernando's lap times from 51- lap 58 (which would have been when Lewis was scheduled to pit). From there we can extrapolate what exactly Lewis could have done relative to Fernando in those crucial lost laps.

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Please post Fernando's lap times from 51- lap 58 (which would have been when Lewis was scheduled to pit). From there we can extrapolate what exactly Lewis could have done relative to Fernando in those crucial lost laps.

Mike, I don't think we can extrapolate from those laps because FA (and then LH did the same) clearly slowed down his pace when he came out in front of LH after his 2nd pit stop. IMO, we should take a look at the times FA could make with heavy fuel right after his 1st pit stop. FA was able to cruise very consistently around 1.16.2 during 8-10 laps after his first pit stop. While the fastest lap of the whole race was 1.15.3, we can deduct that, even if LH were able to maintain the fastest lap of the race's pace for another extra 4 laps, he would only had recovered around 4 seconds to FA when FA's advantage over LH before his 2nd stop was of 11 seconds. I think FA deserved this race and did a better job than LH from thursday, through qually and finally on the race.

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Largest part of the fastest laps were made on that crucial second stint.

Here are FA's lap times right before his second pit:

Lap 42: 1:15.514

Lap 43: 1:15.500

Lap 44: 1:15.284

Lap 45: 1:15.808

Lap 46: 1:15.440

Lap 47: 1:15.443

Lap 48: 1:15.344

Lap 49: 1:15.507

Lap 50: 1:15.869

He pitted on lap 51

Here are LH's lap times before his second pit:

Lap 44: 1:16.678

Lap 45: 1:16.080

Lap 46: 1:15.528

Lap 47: 1:15.838

Lap 48: 1:15.454

Lap 49: 1:15.570

Lap 50: 1:16.789

Lap 51: 1:15.980

Lap 52: 1:15.904

He pitted on lap 53

When FA pitted for his 2nd time he had an 11 seconds advantage over LH. There is no way, if nothing extraordinary would have happened, that LH could've passed FA even if he could have delayed his pit stop 3 o 4 laps later

Well, without any other information to go on, that looks to me like Lewis had traffic on lap 44, possibly 45, definitely on 50, possibly on 51 and 52. I don't remember those specific laps of the race, so in isolation those lap times don't mean an awful lot. However, if he didn't have traffic, then yes he wasn't as consistent as Alonso, but I don't think they tell the whole picture.

There are 2 things that don't add up to me - if they were told not to race after the 1st pitstop, then how did Alonso open up 11 seconds going into the 2nd pitstop. The other thing is that Lewis came in just 2 laps later and yet only came out 3s, I think it was, behind Alonso. There are probably simple explanations for both, but it just seems a bit odd to me.

However, as I said earlier I think that Alonso just about had the measure of Lewis. That was my gut instinct during the race, especially the laps around the 1st pitstop and I am not changing that opinion, but the information received after the race just casts a little doubt in my mind, but not enough to change it. Hopefully, you can accept that as a reasonable opinion on my behalf.

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