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cavallino

Hamilton: "it Is Something I Have To Live With. I've Number Two On My Car And I Am The Number Two Driver"

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This simply explain how and what F1 is.

> It's also a buisness

> Driver are employees, you take care of them, but it's the team that counts.

> You have to be prepared and plan ahead and choose who gets the better strategy.

> It's a TEAM SPORT ultimately

" ... if somebody finds that wrong it really means they're not understanding the nature of this sport" Pat Symonds

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@Mike:

I agree with Alonsenna on the comment that you can't extrapolate lap times. That is something fun to do, but you admitted that even in the best of cases it would have been a close call. When the differences are this small, a common mistake is to compare the hypotethical scenario of one driver under different conditions, and compare him against the other actual lap times. This is a mistake as it does not take into account how the other driver would have reacted to those different conditions.

Am I too confusing? :lol:

If LH got the strategy he wanted, we have no way to know if Alonso would have pushed harder, or if he would have been able to consistently make faster laps. If differences would have been greater between them both, then it would be easier to judge. Now, and I am admitedly being subjective here, I got the impression that Alonso looked more confident while setting fast laps, whereas Lewis seemed quite as fast, but that also meaning a riskier driving. Again, as I don't really think it was a completely manipulated (probably because of Lewis' reluctance to accept being number two) I rather enjoyed the battle bewteen Alonso and Lewis while it lasted! That was no fake wrestling, I think. I am hoping to see them both racing on similar strategies at Montreal which I think is the ultimate test for drivers (you need speed, skill to manage the tight corners and the wall of champions, and a strategic mind to preserve brakes during the race). I hope both can race with no restrictions and in equal conditions!

(And that both get put to shame by Renault's maiden win this year! Darn! I should stop smoking these!) :wacko:

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Hardly subjective. Lewis could do what anyone could do with less fuel: go faster. Lewis was needlessly subjected to a heavy fuel load then a crucial 4 laps running with low fuel was snatched from him by the team so they could fuel him 'in case a safety car was deployed', in which case Lewis would have 'lost second place'. There was no reason at all to believe that a SC would be deployed at that time. The track conditions were fine and the few accidents were local yellows that were cleared away with Monaco's usual expediency.

Lewis, for whatever reason, was forced by McLaren management to remain behind Alonso in Monaco. There is really no other conclusion you can draw from Sunday's race.

No they weren't he didn't have that much fuel. He had 5 laps more than Alonso, according to the FIA, who would know. Second of all, Alonso was only a tenth slower on his first flyer then Lewis was on his low fuel clear air run. Thirdly he was going to hit traffic quite soon.

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Well Mr. Hammy is the #2 driver on the team no doubt, he also put his car into the tiers in practice and clipped the armmco in the race, but most important of all is that the driver who led into and out of the first cornor won again, 5 for 5. That's one stat that cannot be disputed. Prediction: Hammy will jar his kinfolk in Canada when he smacks the wall of champions.

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" ... if somebody finds that wrong it really means they're not understanding the nature of this sport" Pat Symonds

Interesting find. I've offered my reply here.

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Mike, I don't think we can extrapolate from those laps because FA (and then LH did the same) clearly slowed down his pace when he came out in front of LH after his 2nd pit stop. IMO, we should take a look at the times FA could make with heavy fuel right after his 1st pit stop. FA was able to cruise very consistently around 1.16.2 during 8-10 laps after his first pit stop. While the fastest lap of the whole race was 1.15.3, we can deduct that, even if LH were able to maintain the fastest lap of the race's pace for another extra 4 laps, he would only had recovered around 4 seconds to FA when FA's advantage over LH before his 2nd stop was of 11 seconds. I think FA deserved this race and did a better job than LH from thursday, through qually and finally on the race.

True, but at the end of the race, wasn't Lewis around 4 seconds off Fernando's time? Now take into account the 4 seconds you admit could have been gained by keeping Lewis out there. That puts Lewis 1-2 seconds behind Fernando at the end of the race. Certainly that's fighting distance. What I would have liked to see was the fight.

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@Mike:

I agree with Alonsenna on the comment that you can't extrapolate lap times. That is something fun to do, but you admitted that even in the best of cases it would have been a close call. When the differences are this small, a common mistake is to compare the hypotethical scenario of one driver under different conditions, and compare him against the other actual lap times. This is a mistake as it does not take into account how the other driver would have reacted to those different conditions.

Am I too confusing? :lol:

If LH got the strategy he wanted, we have no way to know if Alonso would have pushed harder, or if he would have been able to consistently make faster laps. If differences would have been greater between them both, then it would be easier to judge. Now, and I am admitedly being subjective here, I got the impression that Alonso looked more confident while setting fast laps, whereas Lewis seemed quite as fast, but that also meaning a riskier driving. Again, as I don't really think it was a completely manipulated (probably because of Lewis' reluctance to accept being number two) I rather enjoyed the battle bewteen Alonso and Lewis while it lasted! That was no fake wrestling, I think. I am hoping to see them both racing on similar strategies at Montreal which I think is the ultimate test for drivers (you need speed, skill to manage the tight corners and the wall of champions, and a strategic mind to preserve brakes during the race). I hope both can race with no restrictions and in equal conditions!

(And that both get put to shame by Renault's maiden win this year! Darn! I should stop smoking these!) :wacko:

:thbup: Fully agree (except for the Renault's maiden win part...) ;)

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There are 2 things that don't add up to me - if they were told not to race after the 1st pitstop, then how did Alonso open up 11 seconds going into the 2nd pitstop. The other thing is that Lewis came in just 2 laps later and yet only came out 3s, I think it was, behind Alonso. There are probably simple explanations for both, but it just seems a bit odd to me.

Pablo, if they were told not to race each other after the 1st pit stop they didn't listen because they set most of thes fastest lap times on that second stint. Like Mike said above, from their lap times you can see they stopped racing on the 3rd stint when they started to look after their engine for the Canadian GP...

Regarding that 2nd stop I think it was the moment when FA reached Trulli and didn't let him pass for a few laps losing a lot of time. At least I recall FA complaining about that on the press conference after the race, but I'm not sure if that accounts for all the difference. Maybe somebody can confirm to us what happened then...

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True, but at the end of the race, wasn't Lewis around 4 seconds off Fernando's time? Now take into account the 4 seconds you admit could have been gained by keeping Lewis out there. That puts Lewis 1-2 seconds behind Fernando at the end of the race. Certainly that's fighting distance. What I would have liked to see was the fight.

No one cares to address this?

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We 3 treads discusing the same thing ...

Check the other 2.

What threads? They tend to mutate past the first post, so it's difficult to track them without a link.

EDIT: I just looked around and found other threads that are debating the rightness or wrongness of telling the drivers to 'hold position'. Also there is a discussion on the business/team side of things. None of them answer me:

If McLaren had kept Hamilton on the planned pit strategy, there is every reason to believe that he would be in position to fight Alonso for the lead. For whatever justification McLaren, or you, use, it still amount to keeping their drivers from racing each other. This I wholeheartedly disagree with and I cannot fathom how any RACING fan would think differently.

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Oh, I just wanted to add a clarification:

I am a strong supporter of Alonso and Lewis. Both are fine racers and spectacular to watch. My statements here and elsewhere are not to take anything away from Alonso, or to say Lewis was the faster of the two (though I must admit I do think Lewis is faster on the average) but rather to say I would have liked to see them fight it out. Alonso probably would still have won, as he is a master at defending and, as Lewis said in the post-race, rarely makes mistakes, but even so, I would have enjoyed the result....knowing that it was the true result of two drivers operating on maximum attack and.....

....wait for it.....

racing.

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yes I agree and I honestly dont think Ron enjoyed doing what he did, but he did it as it was the intelligent thing when you're at monaco. Its part of F1 really. In this business, the championship comes first and the racing action very much second. Just ask Ferrari, they couldnt care less how enjoyable F1 is to watch, as long as they got maximum points, and it worked for them.

As I said before, I'll be surprised if Ron makes such a call in any other race this season. I think he did it largely cos at monaco the risk is way too big

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yes I agree and I honestly dont think Ron enjoyed doing what he did, but he did it as it was the intelligent thing when you're at monaco. Its part of F1 really. In this business, the championship comes first and the racing action very much second. Just ask Ferrari, they couldnt care less how enjoyable F1 is to watch, as long as they got maximum points, and it worked for them.

As I said before, I'll be surprised if Ron makes such a call in any other race this season. I think he did it largely cos at monaco the risk is way too big

I think you're right in saying that was Ron's thinking. I think you also may be right that Ron didn't perhaps like doing what he did. Most people think about Ferrari in '02 (itv even made a comparison) but I think that situation is different from this. Ferrari would have scored the same amount of points whether Rubens or MS crossed the line first..they clearly were favoring one driver over another. In Monaco last Sunday, Ron was not favoring Alonso over Lewis, but rather trying to preserve his team's 1-2 position. Sensible, but against what I consider 'racing'.

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Pablo, if they were told not to race each other after the 1st pit stop they didn't listen because they set most of thes fastest lap times on that second stint. Like Mike said above, from their lap times you can see they stopped racing on the 3rd stint when they started to look after their engine for the Canadian GP...

Regarding that 2nd stop I think it was the moment when FA reached Trulli and didn't let him pass for a few laps losing a lot of time. At least I recall FA complaining about that on the press conference after the race, but I'm not sure if that accounts for all the difference. Maybe somebody can confirm to us what happened then...

Well, I agree that it looked like they were still pretty much on the pace in the 2nd stint, but what sort of light does that put on Ron's comments - he was the one who said they weren't racing after the first pitstop. Was it a touch of bravado on Ron's part that came out wrong then?

It may well be the time he was stuck behind Trulli, Alonso reckoned he was 3 laps behind him. I don't think they showed it on the ITV coverage, but I can;t remember for sure.

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I rang up Mike to dicuss this.

!st no matter what once FA led into the first turn the race was decided.

2nd, Hammy was not about to get around FA on the track.

3rd, when Hammster pushed it he tagged the armmco.

4th and final Ron was right to tell the rook to cool it as they had 18 WCC points in hand.

NUFF SAID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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I rang up Mike to dicuss this.

!st no matter what once FA led into the first turn the race was decided.

2nd, Hammy was not about to get around FA on the track.

3rd, when Hammster pushed it he tagged the armmco.

4th and final Ron was right to tell the rook to cool it as they had 18 WCC points in hand.

NUFF SAID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well, you didn't ring me, so let me just play devil's advocate a tad! :lol:

I will qualify this by saying, as I have said all along, that I think Alonso just had the measure of Lewis and Lewis didn't do enough in the 1st stint, but anyway :-

1. Is this because of the 5 races so far, the 1st driver into the 1st corner has won it? Or by saying 'no matter what', is it inferrring that even if Lewis had only been a few seconds behind Alonso by the 1st pit stop and with 5 laps extra fuel, then he still wouldn't have been allowed to win it?

2. Yes, but there was the slight possibility doing it at the pitstops, all things being equal.

3. When Alonso wasn't pushing, apparently, he did the biggest sideways slide of the day.

4. Yes, I am sure he was, but he still felt the need to bring the rookie in early for both pitstops.

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Just to put things in perspective, before we all get lost in the debate and miss the bigger points, I think at least from the latest posts that Paul, Bruce, Mike, Jem and I aren't really disagreeing too much. The biggest difference being just how much of a difference did Ron introduce in the race result when he told them to cool off. I think he didn't interfere that much, Paul and Mike think he did. But I guess we all agree that what is wrong is the intent to interfere, whether it was succesful or not. For that I agree with you that Ron's actions where wrong.

I don't think we will ever agree whether Lewis could have really ended up first or not, but at least we agree in all the rest :lol:

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I rang up Mike to dicuss this.

!st no matter what once FA led into the first turn the race was decided.

2nd, Hammy was not about to get around FA on the track.

3rd, when Hammster pushed it he tagged the armmco.

4th and final Ron was right to tell the rook to cool it as they had 18 WCC points in hand.

NUFF SAID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Facts! :thbup:

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Just to put things in perspective, before we all get lost in the debate and miss the bigger points, I think at least from the latest posts that Paul, Bruce, Mike, Jem and I aren't really disagreeing too much. The biggest difference being just how much of a difference did Ron introduce in the race result when he told them to cool off. I think he didn't interfere that much, Paul and Mike think he did. But I guess we all agree that what is wrong is the intent to interfere, whether it was succesful or not. For that I agree with you that Ron's actions where wrong.

I don't think we will ever agree whether Lewis could have really ended up first or not, but at least we agree in all the rest :lol:

Actually, Andres, I don't disagree with the outcome as such, as I think Alonso just about had the measure of Lewis - I am sure I have already mentioned this once or thrice! :lol:

All it did really was cast a very tiny doubt in my mind regarding the result and confirmed that Ron Dennis is as hypocritical as I always thought he was.

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