Fia Unveils Radical Plans For 2011

[Max Mosley 2]

Yup! It's just a shame we're the only two people with any imagination here. And read Eric's blog. It's very good.

[Eric 0]

Yup! It's just a shame we're the only two people with any imagination here. And read Eric's blog. It's very good.

It is. Very much so. I should be a published author.

Hmm. I'm glad all the old vets left the board. I've now got 2 people doing my ads for me. I suppose the board is also Champ Car-ized, it is a good product, but it needs more talent, since no one pays to come and see Eric try to be entertaining...(though if you had seen me race tonight and get spunout...well...I think I'm not going to be allowed back at the family-friendly speedway )

-Eric

[Max Mosley 2]

That I would have liked to have seen!

[Eric 0]

I think the speedway's videographer looked away during it, but if he did not, I will purchase and upload on YouTube for the viewing pleasure of everyone but the innocent 10 year old that must exist somewhere on this forum to win my avatar contest...

I must say, though, helmets are quite handy. They protect you from getting hurt, and then you use them to hurt someone else. Middle fingers also came in handy. I'm sure if I wanna race again, I'll have to sleep with the manager. Who is a woman, which is better than most sleeping with the managers. Sort of. She is about 3 times as old as me, though...

-Eric

[Piotr 0]

GOOD GOD NO. My lawn mower has a bigger engine than that.

hahaha! My first thought was "they are going back to karting."

[DOF_power 0]

Amen, brother!

Double Amen.

[DOF_power 0]

Uhh, I don't really care about teams. Why would I? I don't driver a Ferrari. I don't drive a Renault. The car manufactures are simply sponsors, anyway.

Nope, the manufacturers "created" GP racing.

The WCC came before the WDC? Well, that's just dumb. F1's been off-course longer than I thought.

-Eric

Edit: Would like to respond to the turning over in their grave comment...if anything in this world has stuck with tradition 100% of the way and you can prove it, I will race a tricycle instead of my Sport Truck racecar(truck) next weekend.

In F1 first it was the WDC in 1950 then the WCC in 1958.

However the first World Championship under AIACR (renamed FIA in 1947) was for manufacturers, and it was held in 1925.

Then in 31 camed the european driver's championship

So we had:

1923 propositions for a world championship for manufacturers and drivers.

1925 first WC for manufacturers only

1931 first European Championship for drivers

under AIACR

then

1947 AIACR becomes/renames itself FIA

Grand Epreuves (its voiturette class/formulae of 1.5 litre) becomes Formula 1 (as its big 3 litre cars =silver arrows were baned)

1950 the EDC returns as the WDC

1958 the WC for manufacturers return as the F1 WCC

So while in F1 the WDC was first, in GP/formulae racing the WCC was actually first, by 25 years.

[DOF_power 0]

The fact that most people watch F1 mainly for the drivers competition is obvious to the FIA, the teams and even anyone who looks at the discussions on this forum. Or look at the popularity of F1 in various countries. Who watched F1 in Spain before Alonso? How many more cared in Germany after Schumacher? How many more people care in the UK now that Lewis is around, even though we had several good drivers before? How many Japanese fans care about Super Aguri, rather than Sato? How many people in the UK could name 3 british drivers of the last 10 years compared to 3 british teams, even though the teams are around much longer? Look at TV/media coverage: it always focusses on the drivers. I think most people here need to open their eyes.

There are very few McLaren, Renault and BMW fans in the grand scheme of things, even here in the UK for McLaren, and Renault and BMW will most likely leave the sport again at some stage in the future anyway. In any case I think you'll find most people who support a particular team do so because of a driver they like. Ferrari fans would lose out, (hence the "almost" in my post above) but the vast majority of people around the world would be much happier. We have very few debates here about the teams and lots about the drivers. Frankly most people on this site couldn't explain the most basic technical things so how they can claim to be interested in the work of the teams I don't know. Finally the FIA and even(!) the teams clearly believe, and always have, that fans want to see fair, close battles between drivers, not teams.

While that might or might not be truth (there are plenty of manufacturers fans BTW, for example almost all of Italy), it is simply irrelevant to the nature of GP racing.

Also, I don't think what you say about the worthiness of the WDC makes any sense at all. If a driver wins the WDC in a dominant car, how on earth is that meaningful? The differences between the cars are 10x those between the drivers, so whoever wins is normally decided by the cars/teams about 9/10 years. The WDC is pathetic, meaningless and worthless.

Furthermore your arguments about the name "F1" are not important. It's a sport that human beings created, and we can adapt it any way we like.

Finally, going "really, really, really fast" etc is easy. I could design a faster car than the current McLaren. Anyone who understands engineering/science at all would be able to see this. I could design a car so fast that no human being could drive it. There we go, the end of F1. What a great story.

What about horse races ?!

If there aren't equall horses/spec horses, why should there be spec equall cars/spec ?!

GP/F1 was never a man/driver's sport-competition, much like the ancient chariot races were never man only sports.

It was/is a man-machine sport, never a man/driver only sport.

Now I doubt that you could design a car, in fact I doubt you could design even the suspension of such a car (proposed super fast).

If that day will come, I'd rather see GP/F1 die honorably, than being prostituted into a mascarade clown series.

[F1 FANatic 1]

The fact that most people watch F1 mainly for the drivers competition is obvious to the FIA, the teams and even anyone who looks at the discussions on this forum. Or look at the popularity of F1 in various countries. Who watched F1 in Spain before Alonso? How many more cared in Germany after Schumacher? How many more people care in the UK now that Lewis is around, even though we had several good drivers before? How many Japanese fans care about Super Aguri, rather than Sato? How many people in the UK could name 3 british drivers of the last 10 years compared to 3 british teams, even though the teams are around much longer? Look at TV/media coverage: it always focusses on the drivers. I think most people here need to open their eyes.

There are very few McLaren, Renault and BMW fans in the grand scheme of things, even here in the UK for McLaren, and Renault and BMW will most likely leave the sport again at some stage in the future anyway. In any case I think you'll find most people who support a particular team do so because of a driver they like. Ferrari fans would lose out, (hence the "almost" in my post above) but the vast majority of people around the world would be much happier. We have very few debates here about the teams and lots about the drivers. Frankly most people on this site couldn't explain the most basic technical things so how they can claim to be interested in the work of the teams I don't know. Finally the FIA and even(!) the teams clearly believe, and always have, that fans want to see fair, close battles between drivers, not teams.

See above.

Also, I don't think what you say about the worthiness of the WDC makes any sense at all. If a driver wins the WDC in a dominant car, how on earth is that meaningful? The differences between the cars are 10x those between the drivers, so whoever wins is normally decided by the cars/teams about 9/10 years. The WDC is pathetic, meaningless and worthless.

Furthermore your arguments about the name "F1" are not important. It's a sport that human beings created, and we can adapt it any way we like.

Finally, going "really, really, really fast" etc is easy. I could design a faster car than the current McLaren. Anyone who understands engineering/science at all would be able to see this. I could design a car so fast that no human being could drive it. There we go, the end of F1. What a great story.

ok, first off, seeing as how you are one of two people here who is for more standardization how does that correlate to a majority of F1 fans wanting it. From my point of view it seams you are in the minority.

About your point of people in different countries only tuning in for the drivers. RTL the German station that brings F1 has stated that this seasons viewernumbers are the same as last years, so Schumi's departure did not make a difference in the audience numbers, that or a whole bunch of Island folk came here to replace the Schumi fans (something I doubt). What Schumi did was create interest but that interest stays even after he left. Its like sex, just because the first person you had sex with left doesn't mean you no longer like sex, right?

I would actually say there are more BMW, Ferrari, Merc, Renault fans then there are just driver fans. Also, I don't drive a Ferrari, probably never will, but I still am a Ferrari fan, to boot I'm German and a Munichan (person from Munich. no clue what you would call them in english), and so I am a BMW fan.

I highly doubt teams want fair competition. the whole goal for a manufacturer is to have the perfect season, I.e win every race.

Lastly, when you make coments about what I say please read everything I say. I said the goal is to go really, really, really, fast (that is where you stopped quoting me) AROUND RACETRACKS A NORMAL MAN WOULD NOT DRIVER FASTER AROUND THAN HIS GRANDMOTHER COULD WALK. what I ment by that, if you didn't get it was to say, a) the car has to be humanly drivable and follow the F1 rules, so, i doubt you could build a car faster than the Merc. seeing that if you could you would probably be working in F1 and that team would be faster than Merc which at this time there are none, except maybe Ferrari, and if you worked there I highly doubt you would be a champion for standardization.

[Max Mosley 2]

While that might or might not be truth (there are plenty of manufacturers fans BTW, for example almost all of Italy), it is simply irrelevant to the nature of GP racing.

It is clearly the truth, if you look at the evidence I've given - Italy would be the only country where this doesn't apply, and even there the decrease in popularity wouldn't be as big as you think. Everywhere else the drivers are more popular than the teams.

It is clearly relevant "to the nature of GP racing" if you want to make the sport better for the fans and more popular. Of course, I understand you prefer it this way, and that's fine. But it doesn't change the fact that most people would prefer the sport the way the FIA is proposing.

What about horse races ?!

If there aren't equall horses/spec horses, why should there be spec equall cars/spec ?!

GP/F1 was never a man/driver's sport-competition, much like the ancient chariot races were never man only sports.

It was/is a man-machine sport, never a man/driver only sport.

I don't think horse racing has any relevance to F1. Most sports have a level playing field between human beings, and that is generally considered a good thing.

Now I doubt that you could design a car, in fact I doubt you could design even the suspension of such a car (proposed super fast).

If that day will come, I'd rather see GP/F1 die honorably, than being prostituted into a mascarade clown series.

You can doubt it all you like, but it's true. I know several people who now work for McLaren in advanced technical roles, and they are no better qualified than me. The level of technical achievement and innovation in F1 is not as high as people make out, and certainly not as high as anyone can read about (in far greater detail too) in any issue of Scientific American.

ok, first off, seeing as how you are one of two people here who is for more standardization how does that correlate to a majority of F1 fans wanting it. From my point of view it seams you are in the minority.

Well, because the majority of F1 fans don't post here! They do watch F1 on the TV though, which is why I gave you the figures. Here in the UK, where about half of the teams are based or owned(!), the TV coverage focusses almost exclusively on the drivers and their competition. The viewing figures in almost every country reflect this.

About your point of people in different countries only tuning in for the drivers. RTL the German station that brings F1 has stated that this seasons viewernumbers are the same as last years, so Schumi's departure did not make a difference in the audience numbers, that or a whole bunch of Island folk came here to replace the Schumi fans (something I doubt). What Schumi did was create interest but that interest stays even after he left. Its like sex, just because the first person you had sex with left doesn't mean you no longer like sex, right?

On the contrary, the "driver effect" was very pronounced in Germany when Schumacher first became successful. He had a huge impact on the popularity of the sport there. The reason F1 is still as popular in Germany as last year is because F1 is more popular in most other countries this year. Germany has actually seen a much smaller increase in viewing figures than most other countries! The explanation for the increase in popularity, in most countries, is that we have a more exciting drivers' contest this year, with four evenly matched contenders. Also, Germany has several other very talented drivers now, who are doing well and who can do even better in the near future, like Heidfeld, Rosberg, Sutil. Also there will be lots of support for the new, talented, Polish driver, Kubica, in Germany too, not to mention the other top contenders like LH or KR. Finally, to look at it another way, you have far more successful teams this year! If so many Germans are obsessed with BMW and Mercedes, then we should have seen a huge increase in viewing figures! Likewise France has good teams but no good drivers right now, and popularity has been very low there for several years.

I highly doubt teams want fair competition. the whole goal for a manufacturer is to have the perfect season, I.e win every race.

No they don't want a fair drivers' contest, and I didn't say they did. What I claimed that even they admitted was that most fans are more interested in the WDC than the WCC. The FIA have endorsed that principle too and are now using it to force a change to F1.

Lastly, when you make coments about what I say please read everything I say. I said the goal is to go really, really, really, fast (that is where you stopped quoting me) AROUND RACETRACKS A NORMAL MAN WOULD NOT DRIVER FASTER AROUND THAN HIS GRANDMOTHER COULD WALK. what I ment by that, if you didn't get it was to say, a) the car has to be humanly drivable and follow the F1 rules, so, i doubt you could build a car faster than the Merc. seeing that if you could you would probably be working in F1 and that team would be faster than Merc which at this time there are none, except maybe Ferrari, and if you worked there I highly doubt you would be a champion for standardization.

It is easy to "go really, really, really, fast (that is where you stopped quoting me) AROUND RACETRACKS A NORMAL MAN WOULD NOT DRIVER FASTER AROUND THAN HIS GRANDMOTHER COULD WALK". One could build a car that could easily beat a modern F1 car, if it didn't have to obey modern F1 rules.

Now of course it is much harder if it has to obey the F1 rules. But frankly I don't think that adds anything to the excitement or spectacle of F1 for very many people at all. Very few people indeed have ever read the F1 regulations and most people have no understanding of the work that F1 teams do. Therefore it would be just as exciting for most people to see cars that were as fast but easier to design because they weren't artificially slowed down by technical regulations about which very few people (even on this site) know anything.

Having admitted that it is harder to design a fast car under F1 regulations, it still is not that hard. I reckon I could quite easily get a job at a top team if I wanted, given that plenty of my friends have done just that, with no better qualifications. The level of technical ability in F1 is good but not great. It takes far more work to design a Renault Clio than the Renault F1 car. And if you really want technical genius, I can't understand why people don't read Scientific American.

But the truth is that very few people even on this site know anything about the technology in F1. They don't really care about that side of the sport, even though they seem to think that they do. What they really want is to see fast cars being raced in a contest primarily between human beings.

I always like analogies about sex, and here's a sexist one of my own: although we have very few female posters on this site, many of the male posters are behaving like women. They don't know what they want deep down, and have to be lead by an alpha man, ie me!

[Max Mosley 2]

Oh yeah, I forgot (as it seems both of you did!) about the issue of how meaningful the WDC is when the drivers' contest is decided not by the drivers but by the teams!

[DOF_power 0]

Look, just stop watching F1 and posting in F1 forums ... if you don't like it.

GP/F1 will never be a spec series, because manufacturers, garagistas will oppose it. They didn't come here to put decals with their names on spec cars. They came here to prove something and to win.

At least today the teams bother to make their cars reliable and safe. But for most part of GP racing history they didn't bothered.

Teams agreed to make horrifying cars, with for most parts had only about 33% chance of finishing the race.

Designers/mecanics/engineers accepted the risk of endangering drivers. And the injuries, the deaths were considered acceptable or irrelevant to the greater purpose. Making the car go faster, ever faster, thus edging the opposition and winning, that's what it's all about.

The hard work, the bending of regulations, the costs, the blood and other sacrifices, all for the success in GP racing.

[DOF_power 0]

ok, first off, seeing as how you are one of two people here who is for more standardization how does that correlate to a majority of F1 fans wanting it. From my point of view it seams you are in the minority.

About your point of people in different countries only tuning in for the drivers. RTL the German station that brings F1 has stated that this seasons viewernumbers are the same as last years, so Schumi's departure did not make a difference in the audience numbers, that or a whole bunch of Island folk came here to replace the Schumi fans (something I doubt). What Schumi did was create interest but that interest stays even after he left. Its like sex, just because the first person you had sex with left doesn't mean you no longer like sex, right?

I would actually say there are more BMW, Ferrari, Merc, Renault fans then there are just driver fans. Also, I don't drive a Ferrari, probably never will, but I still am a Ferrari fan, to boot I'm German and a Munichan (person from Munich. no clue what you would call them in english), and so I am a BMW fan.

I highly doubt teams want fair competition. the whole goal for a manufacturer is to have the perfect season, I.e win every race.

Lastly, when you make coments about what I say please read everything I say. I said the goal is to go really, really, really, fast (that is where you stopped quoting me) AROUND RACETRACKS A NORMAL MAN WOULD NOT DRIVER FASTER AROUND THAN HIS GRANDMOTHER COULD WALK. what I ment by that, if you didn't get it was to say, a) the car has to be humanly drivable and follow the F1 rules, so, i doubt you could build a car faster than the Merc. seeing that if you could you would probably be working in F1 and that team would be faster than Merc which at this time there are none, except maybe Ferrari, and if you worked there I highly doubt you would be a champion for standardization.

Another great post.

[DOF_power 0]

Having admitted that it is harder to design a fast car under F1 regulations, it still is not that hard. I reckon I could quite easily get a job at a top team if I wanted, given that plenty of my friends have done just that, with no better qualifications. The level of technical ability in F1 is good but not great.

Congratulation, for the biggest piece of BS this forum has seen, or maybe any F1 forum, or maybe any forum. You'd probably fail to design a wheel properly.

Frankly, comparing a Clio with a F1 car is BS. An F1 isn't meant to have 5/7 year life cycle, or last for more than a couple of hours.

It takes about 1/4 of the time (18 months) to desing a Clio, only to make it work for a couple of hours in just one season meaning 0.000xyz of the Clio's time.

Do you have any idea of the work involved to make an F1 car ?!

Supercomputers, wind tunnels, super simulators, aerodynamicists, partner companies (including the likes of Boeing, BAE), testing. And it takes 250 to 500 people working very hard.

The level of technical ability is insane, and you'd probably only qualify as a janitor (if you're lucky).

I don't think horse racing has any relevance to F1.

Wrong, that's precisely what it is, the modern equivalent of the old chariot races. Where once owners/bosses/masters prouded themselves with the faster horses, now it about fastest cars, the WCC.

Do you know what Scuderia means ?!

[F1 FANatic 1]

On the contrary, the "driver effect" was very pronounced in Germany when Schumacher first became successful. He had a huge impact on the popularity of the sport there. The reason F1 is still as popular in Germany as last year is because F1 is more popular in most other countries this year. Germany has actually seen a much smaller increase in viewing figures than most other countries! The explanation for the increase in popularity, in most countries, is that we have a more exciting drivers' contest this year, with four evenly matched contenders. Also, Germany has several other very talented drivers now, who are doing well and who can do even better in the near future, like Heidfeld, Rosberg, Sutil. Also there will be lots of support for the new, talented, Polish driver, Kubica, in Germany too, not to mention the other top contenders like LH or KR. Finally, to look at it another way, you have far more successful teams this year! If so many Germans are obsessed with BMW and Mercedes, then we should have seen a huge increase in viewing figures! Likewise France has good teams but no good drivers right now, and popularity has been very low there for several years.

there is one problem to your argument. Germany already has the highest viewing figures, at least % of population of any country, that means there are far viewer people left to draw to F1. That being said, the real question that needs to be asked is how many % of the not yet watching % have now tuned in. And again in Germany this will be lower than in most countries but that is only due to the fact that there will never be 100% viewership in a country and Germany is the closest to reaching the maximum number of people who will watch F1 regardless of why.

[Max Mosley 2]

Look, just stop watching F1 and posting in F1 forums ... if you don't like it.

GP/F1 will never be a spec series, because manufacturers, garagistas will oppose it. They didn't come here to put decals with their names on spec cars. They came here to prove something and to win.

Saying the sport can be improved tells you very little about whether I enjoy it or not.

Of course it won't be a spec series any time soon, but the FIA's proposals are a step in the right direction.

Congratulation, for the biggest piece of BS this forum has seen, or maybe any F1 forum, or maybe any forum. You'd probably fail to design a wheel properly.

Frankly, comparing a Clio with a F1 car is BS. An F1 isn't meant to have 5/7 year life cycle, or last for more than a couple of hours.

It takes about 1/4 of the time (18 months) to desing a Clio, only to make it work for a couple of hours in just one season meaning 0.000xyz of the Clio's time.

Do you have any idea of the work involved to make an F1 car ?!

Supercomputers, wind tunnels, super simulators, aerodynamicists, partner companies (including the likes of Boeing, BAE), testing. And it takes 250 to 500 people working very hard.

The level of technical ability is insane, and you'd probably only qualify as a janitor (if you're lucky)..

You have no idea. A Clio takes more research, effort, people, time and money to design. In fact the Clio is more important than the F1 car to Renault themselves!

Supercomputers? There's nothing very super about them. If you combined all the "supercomputers" in F1 together, you'd get something about 10 times slower than what I'm using right now. Partner companies? I once worked for Shell as a student, and I can tell you, half the people on this forum could blend the fuel Ferrari use.

The level of technical ability in F1 is good but not great. I reckon at least 90% of the work of an F1 team could be done by someone with a good undergraduate degree. That's more than at most industrial research labs, never mind a university.

You guess that I couldn't design a wheel, yet one of my friends, who did no better than me in our (scientific) university exams, now plans out McLaren's pit strategy. There are very few people in F1 who would be considered geniuses on a par with people down the corridor from me (Nobel Prize winners for example).

I don't mean to sound arrogant but people need to get F1 in perspective. If innovation is what you want then F1 is far from the best place to find it.

Wrong, that's precisely what it is, the modern equivalent of the old chariot races. Where once owners/bosses/masters prouded themselves with the faster horses, not it about fastest cars.

That's your own definition. Don't expect other people to accept it.

[Max Mosley 2]

there is one problem to your argument. Germany already has the highest viewing figures, at least % of population of any country, that means there are far viewer people left to draw to F1. That being said, the real question that needs to be asked is how many % of the not yet watching % have now tuned in. And again in Germany this will be lower than in most countries but that is only due to the fact that there will never be 100% viewership in a country and Germany is the closest to reaching the maximum number of people who will watch F1 regardless of why.

None of that contradicts my arguments. The evidence is overwhelming. Looking at % of people who watch F1, look at France. They've had a more successful team than Germany recently, yet viewing figures are extremely low there. They used to be low in Germany too, before you got a top driver. Figures have remained high there for the (driver-based) reasons I gave above.

[DOF_power 0]

Saying the sport can be improved tells you very little about whether I enjoy it or not.

Quite frankly it's obvious you're the one not having a clue.

And you showed it in most of your posts. Anyone who talks about spec-ing F1 clearly doesn't have any clue what it's all about.

And because you're just one or two exception proves it. You're just a nut case who bash/insult drivers and teams and their hard work, and would like to GP racing for the sake of your twisting fantasies.

[Max Mosley 2]

Honestly you make me laugh. A fair driver competition is a twisted fantasy, now!

And I'm not bashing anyone. On the contrary I said "the level of technical ability in F1 is good but not great". That's simply a fair assessment. There are several people on this forum that could do just as good a job. You and most other people on this site have no perspective on the true technical ability in F1. It's not as amazing as people make out.

[monza gorilla 1]

Quite frankly it's obvious you're the one not having a clue.

And you showed it in most of your posts. Anyone who talks about spec-ing F1 clearly doesn't have any clue what it's all about.

And because you're just one or two exception proves it. You're just a nut case who bash/insult drivers and teams and their hard work, and would like to GP racing for the sake of your twisting fantasies.

Now that has really irritated me.

[DOF_power 0]

Where exactly ?!

Aero Engineer ?!

CFD Engineer ?!

Materials Engineer ?!

Mechanical Engineer ?!

Electrical Engineer ?!

Data Engineer ?!

Race/Test Engineer ?!

Research and Development Engineer ?!

Do you have 5-10 to 25-30 years of work experience in racing and/or the aerospace industry and/or automotive industry ?!

And along with that do you have a Bachelors an/or a Masters from places like Oxford, Cambridge, Southampton, Bristol, or the Imperial College, London ?!

Take a look at this profile

Torbj

[Max Mosley 2]

Now that has really irritated me.

Yeah but I find it funny!

Do you have 5-10 to 25-30 years of work experience in racing and/or the aerospace industry and/or automotive industry ?!

Obviously not, but I could get a good job at a top team like my friends have done, and work my way up.

And along with that do you have a Bachelors an/or a Masters from places like Oxford, Cambridge, Southampton, Bristol, or the Imperial College, London ?!

Yes. Both in fact. So do many, many people on this forum.

Take a look at this profile

Torbj

[pabloh20 1]

Quite frankly it's obvious you're the one not having a clue.

And you showed it in most of your posts. Anyone who talks about spec-ing F1 clearly doesn't have any clue what it's all about.

And because you're just one or two exception proves it. You're just a nut case who bash/insult drivers and teams and their hard work, and would like to GP racing for the sake of your twisting fantasies.

So, basically, anyone who doesn't agree with your perception of how F1 is, or should be, doesn't have a clue? That's the right way to have a sensible discussion or debate is it?

Murray, or Muzza, may be many things, but saying he doesn't have a clue is showing a great deal of arrogance in a misplaced conception on your behalf. If you read his posts, you will discover the complete opposite of 'not having a clue', in fact he has a very clear view of what he would like to see in F1 and how he would like to see it achieved. These are not the ramblings of somebody who doesn't have a clue.

It also seems to me that because you haven't got tha ability, or indeed know somebody with tha ability, to work in F1, then it is impossible for Murray to have that ability? That is a very myopic view to have and the sooner you realise that there are plenty of intelligent people on these forums, the sooner you may actually be able to have sensible discussion without resorting to name calling. I don't agree with everything that Murray has said, but I would not call him clueless for having a different point of view to me.

[Max Mosley 2]

Cheers Paul! I sounded a little arrogant myself in my last posts, which wasn't the intention. Anyway, I appreciate your comments. DOF just makes me laugh. He seems to think a masters makes you a genius.

[pabloh20 1]

Cheers Paul! I sounded a little arrogant myself in my last posts, which wasn't the intention. Anyway, I appreciate your comments. DOF just makes me laugh. He seems to think a masters makes you a genius.

No probs, Muzza, I didn't want to step on any toes, but I just thought it important to post something in case DOF really did think you were clueless!

And yes you did sound slightly arrogant in 1 of the posts, but I know you aren't nor intended to sound arrogant, either!