Hamilton Is Unbelievable!

[Fed up 0]

Agreed.

What happens when Fernando leaves? Lewis won't be able to set up his own car because he never took the time to learn. That'll be the true test of Lewis, if he's ever at McLaren without Fernando.

You forget that De larosa is just as adept at set up as Alonso. Lewis will learn the intricacies of set up over the coming years and then, I am sure, he will be just as fast or faster than Nando.

[Jem of the Shire 0]

Yes. But that's no reason to give him a WDC! If he's on a learning curve he should by rights be learning, not winning by virtue of copying someone better.

I think thats being very harsh (on Lewis). He's not winning by virtue of copying someone else, setting up your car is just one small part of the weekend. He's stil going out there qualifying and racing without making mistakes (except nurburgring, i know), despite being a rookie and when he races he looks like someone who's been in F1 a few years. He still has his own driving style and is still extremely fast

What happens when Fernando leaves? Lewis won't be able to set up his own car because he never took the time to learn. That'll be the true test of Lewis, if he's ever at McLaren without Fernando.

Where is the evidence that Lewis uses Alonso's set-up every race anyway?

Hamilton is an F1 driver. Of course he can set up an F1 car (with his engineers of course), and in a few years time he'll probably be just as good at Alonso at doing so. If they're using the same set-up and Alonso is still getting beaten, well that just shows how good Lewis is.

[Niall McBride 0]

[Max Mosley 2]

I think thats being very harsh (on Lewis). He's not winning by virtue of copying someone else, setting up your car is just one small part of the weekend. He's stil going out there qualifying and racing without making mistakes (except nurburgring, i know), despite being a rookie and when he races he looks like someone who's been in F1 a few years. He still has his own driving style and is still extremely fast

Without Alonso's work in the team, Hamilton wouldn't be leading the WDC. Therefore he is only leading it by virtue of having the Spaniard's help. That doesn't mean he isn't also very talented, but that's not the point. If neither McLaren driver helped the other, Alonso would win, therefore I think he is the better driver atm and deserves to win.

[Jem of the Shire 0]

Without Alonso's work in the team, Hamilton wouldn't be leading the WDC. Therefore he is only leading it by virtue of having the Spaniard's help. That doesn't mean he isn't also very talented, but that's not the point. If neither McLaren driver helped the other, Alonso would win, therefore I think he is the better driver atm and deserves to win.

Where is the evidence he uses Alonsos set-up? Is it just because Alonso said in 1 of his whinges 'i'm the one that sets up the car'? (i know he did say that a couple of months ago)

How do you know what work Alonso does compared to Hamilton? None of us have a clue, we're not there, so who are we to state who does more work than the other?

Saying Hamilton is only leading thanks to Alonso's help is really unfair. You've seen everything Lewis has done in qualifying and races, how impressive he's been racing amongst 3 other guys who have all been in F1 since 2002 or before, and you take that all away from him saying its all down to Alonso. I really, really doubt it. He's leading cos he's been more consistent than the others, amongst other reasons

[Max Mosley 2]

It is well established that Lewis mainly uses Alonso's settings. Look at Silverstone to see what happens when he doesn't.

Lewis would not be leading if every race he set his car up himself without the guidance of Alonso. Therefore he is only leading because he can copy his rival's setup. Saying that he has done other things well, and he's a lovely boy with a winning smile etc etc is missing the point entirely.

[Fed up 0]

It is well established that Lewis mainly uses Alonso's settings. Look at Silverstone to see what happens when he doesn't.

Lewis would not be leading if every race he set his car up himself without the guidance of Alonso. Therefore he is only leading because he can copy his rival's setup. Saying that he has done other things well, and he's a lovely boy with a winning smile etc etc is missing the point entirely.

Murray, I respect your opinions, but I think you are giving way too much weight to the influence of Alonso on Lewis's set up. What about the thousand of miles of testing carried out by De La Rosa - Do you think Lewis just circles the track for no reason during the practice sessions, only to revert to the settings 'given' to him by Alonso.

Lewis was honest on the day in admitting that perhaps he missed a trick in not going with Alonso's set up which, I am sure, would have been discussed and established during the debrief meetings attended by both drivers. As Jem mentioned, we do not know whether this is the case at every track as Lewis has only admitted it for Silverstone. Even the great Schumacher used to revert to the set up of Ruebens when they were team mates.

As is human nature people are trying to devalue the huge achievements of Lewis and plagiarism is the latest. Successful people are very rarely universally lauded. Schumacher, Mansell, Senna, Prost all had similar detractors.

Forget about the why's and therfore's and enjoy his unique talent and remind yourself in a few years time that you were fortunate to witness the rise and rise of a superstar

[Wez 0]

I'm here to stay

Great to have you back my good friend!!!

[Max Mosley 2]

I respect your opinions very much too Fed Up (and Jem), but I think you're letting your liking of Lewis cloud your judgement. It's pretty clear that Lewis needs a lot of help setting up his car.

1. Lewis said after Silverstone that "I made a wrong decision with the set-up. I chose a different rear end from Fernando. Usually we have a similar set-up. It was a good lesson." So, there are 3 obvious possibilities.
   • One is ludicrous (the 2x WDC copies the rookie)
     
   • one is possible but unlikely (they independently, though in full knowledge of the other's work(!), arrive at the same setup every race, which is unlikely for several reasons: they have different driving styles, Alonso wasn't happy with his setups until recently, the 2x WDC would be expected to find a better setup than the rookie, we saw in Silverstone what happens when Lewis chooses differently, Lewis admits he knows what Alonso is doing each weekend etc)
     
   • and one is likely (the rookie copies the WDC).
     

[*]It would be unprecedented (and hence is highly unlikely) for a rookie to be able to do so well at setting up the car with no help from other drivers - this is much harder to do with no experience than drive within a tenth or two of Alonso in the same car with the same setup if you're a very talented youngster.

[*]Ron Dennis has praised Alonso's technical ability, as has the rest of the McLaren team. I haven't heard the same kind of praise for Lewis' technical ability and experience yet (as opposed to his natural racing talent). In fact Whitmarsh and Dennis and indeed Lewis have consistently repeated that Lewis is still learning about the technical side of the sport!

[*]No doubt de la Rosa helps too, as you say. But this doesn't matter as much for Alonso because he can surely do as good a job himself. Lewis on the other hand benefits far more from PDLR's help as well as Alonso's.

Murray, I respect your opinions, but I think you are giving way too much weight to the influence of Alonso on Lewis's set up. What about the thousand of miles of testing carried out by De La Rosa - Do you think Lewis just circles the track for no reason during the practice sessions, only to revert to the settings 'given' to him by Alonso.

See above for PDLR's help. I imagine Lewis goes round trying to learn and contribute. But I bet Alonso contributes more to what seem to be shared setups.

Lewis was honest on the day in admitting that perhaps he missed a trick in not going with Alonso's set up which, I am sure, would have been discussed and established during the debrief meetings attended by both drivers. As Jem mentioned, we do not know whether this is the case at every track as Lewis has only admitted it for Silverstone. Even the great Schumacher used to revert to the set up of Ruebens when they were team mates.

See above - he admitted it for every track (except Silverstone). MS did far more work technically than anyone else in F1 imho. That was one of his great contributions to the team. Alonso is similar, but not as quite as good.

As is human nature people are trying to devalue the huge achievements of Lewis and plagiarism is the latest. Successful people are very rarely universally lauded. Schumacher, Mansell, Senna, Prost all had similar detractors.

I'm not trying to detract from his achievements at all. But I want a fair and balanced assessment. Any other kind is meaningless.

Forget about the why's and therfore's and enjoy his unique talent and remind yourself in a few years time that you were fortunate to witness the rise and rise of a superstar

Yes but I also care about this year's WDC. It should go to the driver who is best right now. Imho that is Alonso. In a few years time it will probably be Lewis and I look forward to him winning then!

[Fed up 0]

Perhaps I'm missing the point, but I dont really see what the issue is here. Alonso, PDLR & Hamilton all contribute to the technical set up of the car - Alonso perhaps contributes 50/60%, PDLR 30% and Lewis say 20% - But Lewis has to drive the car in practice, Qualifying and the race - By giving so much weight to techincal set up you appear to be giving very little credit for actually driving the car - how crazy is that

To say that Alonso deserves the WDC because he is better at set up than Lewis is just an incredible statement to make. The fastest driver throughout the season deserves the WDC, period!

F1, it should be remembered, is also a team sport. If it is in the interests of the team for Lewis to use a similar set up to Nando then so be it if the team are to maximise WCC points.

What a crazy debate Roll on the next GP so that we can discuss matters on track.

[Max Mosley 2]

Perhaps I'm missing the point, but I dont really see what the issue is here. Alonso, PDLR & Hamilton all contribute to the technical set up of the car - Alonso perhaps contributes 50/60%, PDLR 30% and Lewis say 20%

Great! Lets agree on that.

But Lewis has to drive the car in practice, Qualifying and the race - By giving so much weight to techincal set up you appear to be giving very little credit for actually driving the car - how crazy is that

No. I am saying that this year's WDC doesn't adequately reflect the work that goes on behind the scenes on the technical side, because one competitor is copying the other. Lewis vs Alonso's driving is adequately measured, which is why I'm not complaining about that. Given they are separated by only 2 points, it's clear that if you include the technical work that Alonso does, the order would change. Therefore Lewis doesn't deserve to be leading imho.

To say that Alonso deserves the WDC because he is better at set up than Lewis is just an incredible statement to make. The fastest driver throughout the season deserves the WDC, period!

See above.

F1, it should be remembered, is also a team sport. If it is in the interests of the team for Lewis to use a similar set up to Nando then so be it if the team are to maximise WCC points.

Of course but the interests of the teams have nothing to do with making the WDC fair. The teams are counter-productive as I keep saying.

What a crazy debate Roll on the next GP so that we can discuss matters on track.

Matters on track are only a small part of F1. Results are decided away from the track far more so than on it.

[Fed up 0]

I'm enjoying this

At the last Silverstone test Lewis did not attend for whatever reason. Nando & Pedro did the donkey work in prepping the car and Nando undoubtedly benefited from this during the race weekend proper. Is it unreasonable for Lewis to copy part of Nando's set up given than Nando had the experience of the track - It obviously begs the question why Lewis opted for a different rear end given his lack of track mileage, but this is besides the point.

I'd also argue that Nando has had no more Mclaren track testing than Lewis, Silverstone excluded. So what additional knowledge would he have of the Bridgestone tyres and the Mclaren car than Pedro or, for that matter, Lewis I now revise my percentages above as follows;

Pedro - 40%

Nando - 35%

Lewis - 25%

Over to you

[FUschumi 0]

I hope it is not Massa who wins the title, it would be very bad for F1 prestige.

I do hope so.

Since Monza last year, I know he will become a dirty driver in the future.

Hope he will learn more from Kimi about sportmanship.

[Max Mosley 2]

I'm enjoying this

Good! I was worried I'd upset you.

Pedro - 40%

Nando - 35%

Lewis - 25%

OK I'll let you change your mind if you want. I think the old estimate was much more accurate but as long as Alonso contributes significantly more than Lewis it makes no difference. As I also said above, Alonso doesn't rely on Pedro's work as much as Lewis likely does.

I'd also argue that Nando has had no more Mclaren track testing than Lewis, Silverstone excluded. So what additional knowledge would he have of the Bridgestone tyres and the Mclaren car than Pedro or, for that matter, Lewis I now revise my percentages above as follows;

He has far more knowledge of F1 in general and the technology and processes involved. He must surely be better at setting up any given F1 car under current F1 conditions than a rookie. Lewis and McLaren have all but admitted that, as I said above.

At the last Silverstone test Lewis did not attend for whatever reason. Nando & Pedro did the donkey work in prepping the car and Nando undoubtedly benefited from this during the race weekend proper. Is it unreasonable for Lewis to copy part of Nando's set up given than Nando had the experience of the track

Yes but that is the one race this year when he didn't copy Nando's settings!

[AleHop 0]

Where is the evidence he uses Alonsos set-up? Is it just because Alonso said in 1 of his whinges 'i'm the one that sets up the car'? (i know he did say that a couple of months ago)

I think Hamilton deserves every point he has got so far but it is quite clear at the same time that Alonso and him have different role to play in the team. Hamilton admited he had been using very similar set up to Alonso up to Silverstone where he changed it and then he thought it had been a mistake.

Q. It must be a new experience being 36 seconds down on the guy in front; do you feel yourself lucky to be on the podium?

LH: I wouldn't say it's luck. Obviously we worked extremely hard this weekend. I think we made a wrong decision, or I made a wrong decision with the set-up. I chose a different rear end to Fernando and I think it really caused me problems during the race. Even in qualifying we didn't really have the pace that I should have had, but it was too late by then to change the car.

It's a good lesson, we've come away with a ninth podium position, most consistent driver here, I think, and I have to be happy with that, and we have to look forward and hope to do better in the next race.

Q. (Anne Giuntini