Jem of the Shire

No Penalty For Mclaren

116 posts in this topic

Just for making me do that I should burn the FIA's building to the ground.

Need any materials? I could go down to my storage unit and well... :ph34r:

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Need any materials? I could go down to my storage unit and well... :ph34r:

Why thank you! Wait a minute...why do you have that pile of mines over there...all of them with the words "for Andr

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Why thank you! Wait a minute...why do you have that pile of mines over there...all of them with the words "for Andr

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They're not mines, they're just camouflaged as such so no one dares steal them, but now I've told you my secret I'm afraid I'm going to have to...

:eekout:

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FIA should have penalized McLaren. Maybe the banning would have been too much as the evidence is brittle at least, but a fine would have worked as a warning and deterrent for future similar actions, as well as forcing the teams to watch their employees actions better.

But if an employee gets these documents and keeps them in his own home, how can his own team even know about it?

I have lost the last bit of confidence in the FIA with this. These happenings have hurt the sport and there is no way someone can say they haven't

Blame Coughlan & Stepney for this, not the FIA!

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There no question here of guilty, it has been proven ( even by the FIA ). Intellectual property is different, with even just a quick glance of some papers, you might subconsciously use it in your design next time. So if you caught will someone else's lyrics it might give you ideas for your own, which is way those laws surrounding intellectual property are usually stricter. And what about the espionage and the movable floors, the information gain was obviously used.

The FIA (Fraud In-forces Agency) did not surprise me at all, the golden team (maccheats), just cant do anything wrong.

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With this precedent any team can use a low level (expendable) employee to obtain information and then he can just keep the copies at home. Some funds could reach him in a later time if he manages to be the 5th person in 70 years of F1 to be caught with hard evidence. A team can more or less never be convicted, as obviously even similarities in design would not do but one would have to prove the process of using the information to gain an advantage. That can never happen unless someone confesses or people keep records of the copying process. The "Stepney-Coughlan" cooperation, because they both wanted to join Honda is worth as much as anything to base your conclusions on. Here's a fact: Chief designer of Team A has had in his posession the complete plans of the car of Team B for a total of 3 months.

Assumption 1) It was for personal use and he did not use the designs in his work but kept all conclusions locked up in a part of his brain that he only operated when he was home, so the designs had no effect whatsoever on the design of the Mclaren.

Assumption 2) He used the information, or conclusions drawn from studying the information in designing new parts for the Mclaren.

Assumption 3) He didn't intentionally use the information but some conclusions inevitably affected his decisions.

But FIA had to base their decision on proof, or maybe lack thereof. Like Berny said recently the FIA will take decision with the good of the sport in mind. Like lets say evaluating what kind of effect a Mclaren exclusion would have on the championship which has been closer than it's been for years. The FIA are not a court, their decisions are mostly political anyway. What is funny is that they find a team in breach of the rule and then out of a magic hat they pull the "But there is no proof the information was used, so it's ok"

Judging by the Ferrari statement, there is still some way to go with this.

Edited by kuskor

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But if an employee gets these documents and keeps them in his own home, how can his own team even know about it?

Blame Coughlan & Stepney for this, not the FIA!

So how can you convict a government spy? If a spy gets caught, on what grounds is he condemned? Do the court first determines whether the nation this spy belongs to has benefited beyond all reasonable doubt from his actions? Or is he convicted just for the act of espionage itself? Do a country retaliate against another that infiltrated spies in its territory only after it was proved that that country benefited from the espionage act?

For the FIA, teams are nations. FIA cannot punish individuals but they can punish teams. It doesn't matter whether MC shared his knowledge or not with the team or if the team actually benefited from that info. The team is responsible for having a guy involved in espionage against another team. We can discuss about how responsible is McLaren, in one extreme you'll have the concept that they were just negligent about who they have in their team, on the other extreme of the spectrum you could say that they are as responsible as MC because of course it was beneficial for them.

But I am sure they are responsible, no matter in which degree.

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I'm shocked this happened but not surprised.

I'm sick and tired of hearing that McLaren did not and has not used any of the design features of Ferrari's car on their own. To read someone else's design plans and see conclusions, failures etc., on what does and doesn't work, saves McLaren millions of R&D themselves. They could see something Ferrari tried, and not have to test or try it themselves. So yeah big Ron can say we haven't used anything on our car, but they still benefited from Ferrari's knowledge.

This is such an utter joke it begs the question why even bother. Nearly 800 pages of information from your main competitor, one the accused even saying he informed various people in the team, the FIA finds you guilty... and nothing, no sanctions, no fines, nothing.

I hope Alonso' leaves that team and Hamilton continues to crash. What a ****ing disgrace.

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I'm a Brit and supports the British teams/drivers, but this decision doesn't sit well with me. <_<

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We have learned nothing.

Indeed. It's all been settled in private. No doubt various deals have been done, that we shall never learn about.

These happenings have hurt the sport and there is no way someone can say they haven't

Quite!

F1 is a team sport. A team member of McLaren has been found guilty. He was found guilty in his role as part of the sporting competition that is F1's core. Therefore it's just like a footballer kicking an opponent. You don't wait to see if the guy can get up and walk so we don't have to punish the offender. In the Tour de France you don't guess how much drugs would have benefited a rider, and calculate if he would have won anyway. If F1 is a team sport, then the team must pay the penalty for the cheating of its staff during the (in this case technical, car designing) competition regardless of how much the team benefits in the end. Of course, how the team benefits will affect the severity of the punishment.

Edited by Murray Walker

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One other thing. How thoroughly did the FIA investigate McLaren? Did they look at all the simulations they've done in the past few months to see if they investigated these designs? Did they find out how McLaren knew about the flexi-floor on the Ferrari?

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Speaking of the Tour de France. If any rider OR team was found with a dossier on how to bypass the urine & blood tests, claimed he never actually did it and it was his trainers who had that info and not themselves, they would be Sh#tcanned out of the tour faster than you could say oui.

Possession of drugs and firearms similarly will get you in alot of trouble depending on what country or situation you are in. But obviously possession of information that costs millions, maybe even billions of dollars in research, development, time and energy is a slap on the wrist.

This is lunacy. I'm not suggesting that McLaren as a team went out and stole this information. But they did use them. How else can one explain them asking the FIA for clarification concerning movable floors? It benefited them quite nicely from what I can see. One of the head designers of McLaren had this information. He influenced others. And yet we are to believe he did not.

I can deal with Max and Berni's bulls##t any day of the week, but this smacks of a farce unlike anything I've ever experience in F1.

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Blame Coughlan & Stepney for this, not the FIA!

I will blame the FIA because they are at fault for this loss of credibility. NS and MC had nothing to do with it. The FIA was given a clearcut case with a clearcut verdict and they turned it around and had Merc go Scott free. The FIA had a chance to score a PR win for the ages by doing the right thing, but, as you see by the opinions of this thread, the FIA, not MC or NS, lost face. This year's Championship has been marred and no matter who wins it will never be seen as a fair competition.

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Yeah I'm not sure that it's quite that bad. F1 is never a fair driver contest in my book. But the team contest is much better: really you win as a team by getting the most money/best people etc and by making the right deals. This is no different really. McLaren may not have been let off scot free. They may have made a deal of some sort with Ferrari and the FIA. If so we will see who made the best deal later in the season! Otherwise, perhaps they employed better lawyers than Ferrari? Lawyers are a part of the team so why shouldn't they decide the championship. In any normal year the marketeers and negotiators would make a big difference to the outcome, so why not lawyers?

Basically I don't think it changes how meaningful the WCC is.

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This ruling right or wrong should put paid to rest that Ferrari and the FIA are in bed together

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This ruling right or wrong should put paid to rest that Ferrari and the FIA are in bed together

This is something unbelievable.

Everyone was expecting heavy penalties on McLaren at this crucial stage of championship (not early protest .... etc).

It happened in 2003 (Michelin) and 2006 (Mass damper) that benefited Ferrari, but not this time. This time Ferrari failed to overturn their fortune through its usual FIA way.

Maybe its just the start of Ferrari show and more to come from Mafia-liked Ferrari.

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I dont agree that the team should be held responsible for what the staff did. It is not like the team could keep watch of every single staff 24/7 to ensure they dont step out of line. Why should the the whole team be punished for what one person did? It is like punishing the whole class of students when one of the students did wrong.

If the team hired coughlan to get the info but did not use the info, then the team is still wrong. But if the team did not hire him to get the info, and the team did not use the info, I dont see why the team should be held responsible for what he did.

Based on current evidence nothing proves that Mclaren had used that information. If they had used, then they certainly should be punished.

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I dont agree that the team should be held responsible for what the staff did. It is not like the team could keep watch of every single staff 24/7 to ensure they dont step out of line. Why should the the whole team be punished for what one person did? It is like punishing the whole class of students when one of the students did wrong.

If the team hired coughlan to get the info but did not use the info, then the team is still wrong. But if the team did not hire him to get the info, and the team did not use the info, I dont see why the team should be held responsible for what he did.

Based on current evidence nothing proves that Mclaren had used that information. If they had used, then they certainly should be punished.

From the FIA standpoint, your argument is sensible.

But I still courious why FIA never clearly said how Coughlan obtained the info from. By accident? It just doesn't make sense.

Edited by FUschumi

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Coughlan would still have this info had it not been for a copy shop employee. Coughlan had informed quite a few people at McLaren that he had this info. He may of even shown it to others, but it has been mentioned on various F1 news sites that he at least told others of it.

If McLaren as so innocent, why did they not fire Coughlan on the spot. They did not contact the FIA. They did not contact Ferrari. I don't care how impeccable Ron's reputation is. If they were truly innocent they would have informed the correct authorities about this. Instead they kept quiet about it. The real hero here is the copy shop guy.

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I dont agree that the team should be held responsible for what the staff did. It is not like the team could keep watch of every single staff 24/7 to ensure they dont step out of line. Why should the the whole team be punished for what one person did? It is like punishing the whole class of students when one of the students did wrong.

No it's different to that situation. F1 is a team competition. So if a member of a team breaks the rules then the team has to be punished. That's how a team competition works. The team is judged by the combined actions of its members, including the mistakes they make.

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No it's different to that situation. F1 is a team competition. So if a member of a team breaks the rules then the team has to be punished. That's how a team competition works. The team is judged by the combined actions of its members, including the mistakes they make.

But how many times over the years have Ferrari (Team) being found NOT guilty buy the FIA ? whilst OTHER teams have been for a lesser offense?

Edited by rodders47

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Yes perhaps. It's not always a fair contest. But if you see it as a team competition then the teams have to be judged by the actions of the team members.

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The FIA looked at the facts.

Saw that Stepney and Coughlan were actively recruiting people in their teams to all switch to Honda.

When several members of the McLaren team became aware that Coughlan was in possession this document he was told to destroy these documents.

In light of all this McLaren cannot be held fully accountable for the actions of 1 man.

Hypothetically it would mean that one team could mail a package containing design specs to another team phone the FIA tell them about it.

Have them intercept it on delivery and then they would be exclude that team from the championship.

It is not enough to prove possesion alone and it also has to be proven that there is intend to use it to influence the championship.

This cannot be proven because it is probable that the reason for Coughlan beeing in the possession of these documents was personal gain through better employment elsewhere.

Which is why the FIA at this point can only come to the conclusion that yes technicaly McLaren broke a rule but they had no intend to use it.

Now if evidence turns up which proves they did use it they will be exluded from the 2007 and 2008 championships.

Edited by NeoData

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