Jem of the Shire

No Penalty For Mclaren

116 posts in this topic

Yes perhaps. It's not always a fair contest. But if you see it as a team competition then the teams have to be judged by the actions of the team members.

Will it be a ploy by Ferrari?

Judging by their unsporting-liked behaviour in the past, they can send something original but no longer useful to their rivals just to screw up the others.

I hope that's not the case.

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Hmm I don't know FUSchumi. :eusa_think: I think the teams in general are unsporting ,though perhaps Ferrari is the worst as you say.

The FIA looked at the facts.

Saw that Stepney and Coughlan were actively recruiting people in their teams to all switch to Honda.

When several members of the McLaren team became aware that Coughlan was in possession this document he was told to destroy these documents.

In light of all this McLaren cannot be held fully accountable for the actions of 1 man.

Hypothetically it would mean that one team could mail a package containing design specs to another team phone the FIA tell them about it.

Have them intercept it on delivery and then they would be exclude that team from the championship.

It is not enough to prove possesion alone and it also has to be proven that there is intend to use it to influence the championship.

This cannot be proven because it is probable that the reason for Coughlan beeing in the possession of these documents was personal gain through better employment elsewhere.

Which is why the FIA at this point can only come to the conclusion that yes technicaly McLaren broke a rule but they had no intend to use it.

Now if evidence turns up which proves they did use it they will be exluded from the 2007 and 2008 championships.

Interesting post, but I disagree in the end. I think that a team (eg McLaren) has to be held accountable for the actions of each and every team member, as long as they relate to the sporting contest in some way. Clearly possessing the designs of a rival team is against the rules of the sport, and the team (as well as the individual) have to be held accountable. That's how a team sport has to work - the team is judged by the actions of its members. I don't think it's satisfactory to allow a team to claim credit for all the good things team members do without punishing them for the bad things the members may do. The team is either responsible for its members' actions or it isn't.

Also your point about possession is valid up to a point, but the context is important. If a team informs the FIA that they received in the post some illegal documents immediately upon receipt, then they can't be punished I agree, but if they keep quiet about them for months until the rival team brings them to court, it's a different story. (By "team" here I mean the team members too!)

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Hmm I don't know FUSchumi. :eusa_think: I think the teams in general are unsporting ,though perhaps Ferrari is the worst as you say.

Interesting post, but I disagree in the end. I think that a team (eg McLaren) has to be held accountable for the actions of each and every team member, as long as they relate to the sporting contest in some way. Clearly possessing the designs of a rival team is against the rules of the sport, and the team (as well as the individual) have to be held accountable. That's how a team sport has to work - the team is judged by the actions of its members. I don't think it's satisfactory to allow a team to claim credit for all the good things team members do without punishing them for the bad things the members may do. The team is either responsible for its members' actions or it isn't.

Also your point about possession is valid up to a point, but the context is important. If a team informs the FIA that they received in the post some illegal documents immediately upon receipt, then they can't be punished I agree, but if they keep quiet about them for months until the rival team brings them to court, it's a different story. (By "team" here I mean the team members too!)

I would be happier if FIA punished McLaren heavily or disqualify them completely for 2007 and beyond.

All the while it has been so much favour towards Ferrari and why don't they keep on doing it?

Assuming F1 without McLaren or other strong teams, it will be Ferrari 1-2 forever. Just like watching the repeat of 2005 Indianapolis throughout the seasons and years ahead. I hope that will be the future of F1 so that I can save my time watching other sports rather than watching the show put up by the FIARRARI.

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As McLaren celebrates the FIA

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As McLaren celebrates the FIA's decision not to issue a penalty for the team's part in the F1 spying scandal, a new storm was brewing over the sport as Ferrari today issued fresh allegations of copying, this time against Honda.

'There is growing evidence that Honda Racing's current championship campaign is not wholly based on original material,' said a statement from the Italian team. 'Specifically, that they have been copying the Ferrari seasons 1991, 1992 and 1993'.

'Honda's performance this season is too familiar to be mere coincidence,' said a Maranello insider. 'The mediocre performance, the patchy reliability, the dispirited drivers, these are all things that have clearly been obtained from Ferrari's period of being rubbish in the early '90s'.

However, Honda was quick to rebuff any allegations of copying. 'Honda Racing denies any suggestion that it has knowingly copied data or strategy from Ferrari, either current or when they were Sh#t,' said a spokesman. 'Throughout the entire F1 spying scandal we have been entirely open and honest about our involvement. Specifically, that our awful season is entirely modelled on the dismal efforts of Footwork during the 1995 championship. We are confident that this will become clear during the forthcoming Hungarian Grand Prix where we have asked Barrichello to get himself run over by the marshalling car'.

(thank you Sniff Petrol)

May I know where did you get this piece of exciting news from?

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I would be happier if FIA punished McLaren heavily or disqualify them completely for 2007 and beyond.

All the while it has been so much favour towards Ferrari and why don't they keep on doing it?

Assuming F1 without McLaren or other strong teams, it will be Ferrari 1-2 forever. Just like watching the repeat of 2005 Indianapolis throughout the seasons and years ahead. I hope that will be the future of F1 so that I can save my time watching other sports rather than watching the show put up by the FIARRARI.

LMAO, you total tool - or is it fool? :)

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This is something unbelievable.

Everyone was expecting heavy penalties on McLaren at this crucial stage of championship (not early protest .... etc).

It happened in 2003 (Michelin) and 2006 (Mass damper) that benefited Ferrari, but not this time. This time Ferrari failed to overturn their fortune through its usual FIA way.

Maybe its just the start of Ferrari show and more to come from Mafia-liked Ferrari.

there is a difference between asking the FIA to investigate other teams for what a they think is a breach of the rules, The Michelin tires in 03 were very much a breach, and having the FIA give a team the all clear after it had been found to have in their possession material worth hundreds of millions of dollars. If it was the entire 07 Ferrari then that is $300 million worth of work.

If I get arrested with 40 kilos of cocaine in my house I cant just say I received it from a friend and was never going to use or sell it. The police would laugh their asses off and throw me in jail. So when Merc said, "Yes we have $300 million worth of Ferrari data but we never were going to use it", I don't see how the FIA didn't just laughed and penalized them.

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Exactly, just HAVING the information is enough, there may have been use - there is not enough evidence, however, they should have done SOMETHING for them just having the information. You can say it's just the actions of 2 men, but TWO teams are held to be in breach as those 2 men represent their teams - you can't just say (hypothetically) "well, we copied the exact chassis etc, but it was only one man who did it so it doesn't matter" - no, \F1 was, has and always will be a team sport, like it or not.

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If I get arrested with 40 kilos of cocaine in my house I cant just say I received it from a friend and was never going to use or sell it. The police would laugh their asses off and throw me in jail. So when Merc said, "Yes we have $300 million worth of Ferrari data but we never were going to use it", I don't see how the FIA didn't just laughed and penalized them.

:nono1:

If you were caught with 40 kilos of Cocaine in your parents house, would your parents be responsible because it is there house - Or would it be 100% on your head?

By the look of things, Mclaren have successfully proved that Coughlan, a disaffected employee, was working on his own and was most likely to use the information to benefit his proposed new team. McLaren were also able to prove that Coughlan had asked to be released from his contract before the leak and the naievety of his wife further proves that the slick Mclaren could not have been involved.

Putting on my cynical hat this could be a ploy to set Mclaren up for a mega fall as the testimony of Stepney & Coughlan is yet to come. If either were to declare and prove that Mclaren had benefited from the Ferrari info then Mclaren could face a very lengthy ban.

Watch this space :eusa_think:

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This is just bull crap. When Toyota was blamed for using Ferrari's data, it's a big deal. Now McLaren is found guilty with the possession of Ferrari data, they try to push it off as nothing.

Why? Is it because if the McLaren are found guilty and their points stripped off then there's no one else to contend against the Ferrari's in the World Championship? That's just stupid.

F1 is more of politics and business then motorsports. Dumb!

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So far it is rather obvious that, differences aside in our opinions, most of us think this whole incident seriously damaged all parts involved.

- MC and NS are definitely out of motorsport business.

- Ferrari had their image seriously damaged, not taking in account the possible strategic advantage they might have lost if the documents were seen by anybody else at McLaren or another team.

- McLaren has definitely ruined their possible WCC and WDC. If I were LH or FA, would as well give up trying to win the championship and focus on my graden and/or family. The current championship will be worthless anyways, after this decision. I feel sorry for Lewis, because if he wins it it would be because of his skills and genius and would be a historic triumph, yet it won't be considered worth much as many other controversial championships in the past (you know which ones) I don't even want to imagine the heat FA will take if he wins it.

- The FIA has once again took a short-sighed course of action and is costing them whatever little respect us fans had for them.

AND I HATE HAVING TO AGREE WITH FERRARI!!!! :furious:

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Great ruling!!! HAHAHA, I love it!

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Speaking of the Tour de France. If any rider OR team was found with a dossier on how to bypass the urine & blood tests, claimed he never actually did it and it was his trainers who had that info and not themselves, they would be Sh#tcanned out of the tour faster than you could say oui.

Possession of drugs and firearms similarly will get you in alot of trouble depending on what country or situation you are in. But obviously possession of information that costs millions, maybe even billions of dollars in research, development, time and energy is a slap on the wrist.

This is lunacy. I'm not suggesting that McLaren as a team went out and stole this information. But they did use them. How else can one explain them asking the FIA for clarification concerning movable floors? It benefited them quite nicely from what I can see. One of the head designers of McLaren had this information. He influenced others. And yet we are to believe he did not.

I can deal with Max and Berni's bulls##t any day of the week, but this smacks of a farce unlike anything I've ever experience in F1.

AMEN

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By the look of things, Mclaren have successfully proved that Coughlan, a disaffected employee, was working on his own and was most likely to use the information to benefit his proposed new team. McLaren were also able to prove that Coughlan had asked to be released from his contract before the leak and the naievety of his wife further proves that the slick Mclaren could not have been involved.

That sounds like a tale my grand ma told me when I was a child.

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There are 3 sides to every story. And we haven't heard even one of them.

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Hmmm I think the main issue here which makes it difficult is that MC didn't actually steal any data. Thats considering if NS must of gave him the data/a copy of it. If you steal the data then it's obvious he wanted to use the data as an advantage to his own team. But from what I know I thought NS gave him the data so it's hard to say MC was going to use it, if it was given to him (may have just wanted it for personal reason which may sound very far fetched i know). Because you could equally say NS was given data about Mclaren from MC which wasn't found/wasn't written down. It would of been difficult to penalise Mclaren with this evidence as Ferrari could of somehow gained an advantage in this spy incident. Doesn't help that Ferrari's pace on track has got quicker and better than the Mclarens while this is all going on. So I remain to think Mclaren is innocent till actually proven guilty (for example a match from the Ferrari data say a new front wing improvement on their car in the coming races or next season.)

Im sure many will disagree with me but If anyone knows if MC actually stole the data please correct me.

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:nono1:

If you were caught with 40 kilos of Cocaine in your parents house, would your parents be responsible because it is there house - Or would it be 100% on your head?

By the look of things, Mclaren have successfully proved that Coughlan, a disaffected employee, was working on his own and was most likely to use the information to benefit his proposed new team. McLaren were also able to prove that Coughlan had asked to be released from his contract before the leak and the naievety of his wife further proves that the slick Mclaren could not have been involved.

Putting on my cynical hat this could be a ploy to set Mclaren up for a mega fall as the testimony of Stepney & Coughlan is yet to come. If either were to declare and prove that Mclaren had benefited from the Ferrari info then Mclaren could face a very lengthy ban.

Watch this space :eusa_think:

If your parents knew about the cocaine then they would be in trouble too.

here is an exact quote from the WMSC statement

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So it is clear they have broken the rules but it is not clear the broke them too much, no?

:unsure:

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So it is clear they have broken the rules but it is not clear the broke them too much, no?

:unsure:

They are saying "We know you robbed that bank, but as we cannot prove you used that money to benefit yourself so you may go home with our best wishes. Maybe you won that new house, car and yatch in a contest, and maybe one of these days we will investigate, but not now."

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If your parents knew about the cocaine then they would be in trouble too.

Precisely

:rolleyes:

McLaren argued that they didn't know of the Ferrari info

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Precisely

:rolleyes:

McLaren argued that they didn't know of the Ferrari info

And the stupid FIA bought it. No one here honestly believes that McLaren only just found out about this. The upper management people knew about this for months, possibly since the beginning of the season.

To put it in simpleton terms, McLaren could have honestly not done anything apart from reading the info that Coughlan had and still benefited. How do you ask is that possible? It's rather simple. Let's say for example Ferrari spent 1 year testing and developing unique weight distribution, movable floors and other such things. After all the money, development and time spent, Ferrari hypothetically could have determined that such things really didn't work. All McLaren would have to do is read these reports without having to go out and spend the money and brain power in doing it themselves. They would benefit as well as save money & time. Secondly, it's alot easier to read someone else's conclusions and discoveries and understand it, than it is to come up with them from scratch by yourself.

It's interesting how McLaren worded some of their statements. They said that no part on their car was copied from the Ferrari. Only a complete idiot would do that anyways and that's rather easy to prove or disprove. What's murkier and clearly harder to prove, but also far easier to get away with, is to simply read the information on Ferrari's car, understand how it runs and operates and combat that with your own strategies. They know the size of Ferrari's fuel tank, the weight distribution and other such things. Make no mistake, McLaren are guilty. They stayed silent until this whole thing was blown wide open. Only people who have something to hide do this.

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