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Jem of the Shire

No Penalty For Mclaren

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Well this just reeks of the "power of the Almighty Dollar" to me. If McLaren were to be thrown out of the comp for a season or two, imagine how much money would be lost in merchandise, sponsorship and various other revenues. No Lewis Hamilton or Fernando Alonso either. The amount of lost dollars would be incredible.

The bit that gets me is that a breach has been made (

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They are saying "We know you robbed that bank, but as we cannot prove you used that money to benefit yourself so you may go home with our best wishes. Maybe you won that new house, car and yatch in a contest, and maybe one of these days we will investigate, but not now."

This is more like a bank employee mailing the content of the vault to another person :lol:

I think its save to say McLaren haven't used the data for their cars since the best arguement ferari can come up with seems to be "hey we were cheating and they only found out because they had our designs".

I heard that Stepney also recieved designs from McLaren.

This is such a mess.......

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[quote name='NeoData' post='207015' date='Jul 28 2007, 07:54 AM']This is more like a bank employee mailing the content of the vault to another person :lol:

I think its save to say McLaren haven't used the data for their cars since the best arguement ferari can come up with seems to be "hey we were cheating and they only found out because they had our designs".
I heard that Stepney also recieved designs from McLaren.
This is such a mess.......[/quote]

In my opinion, McLaren is absolutely wrong if Ron Dennis knew about this in Mar07. They should inform FIA.

On the other hand, Stepney is absolutely unethical by sending out Ferrari info to McLaren. He is really spoiling the McLaren. He should send to Renault or others that suits Ferrari design [b]more[/b]. Stepney is really spoiling the sport. Anyway he is from Ferrari, the Mafia-liked and unsoprting team. They deserve to be punished for their past unsporting behaviours that spoiled other teams. Just kidding.

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And the stupid FIA bought it. No one here honestly believes that McLaren only just found out about this. The upper management people knew about this for months, possibly since the beginning of the season.

you dont actually know that though. None of us do, only the top people of mclaren know

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There are no angels in this case. Both Ferrari and Mclaren are guilty. Mclaren is quilty for possessing those documents, but ferrari is certainly no angel either. They are making the most out of the situation and try to bring down their rivals. Of course, if the roles are reversed, I reckon Mclaren would do the same as well. In the end both teams are the devils.

You can speculate that Mclaren was aware long time ago about coughlan's conduct, or you can speculate that Ferrari knew all along and just play along so that they can set up Mclaren. Either way those are both conspiracy theories that cannot be proved.

The only fact here is that the ruling is made and Mclaren is clear for now. Whether it is fair or not, that is the ruling and everyone has to abide with it. In football, when a player dives and the referee gives a penalty, or when your opponent scores an offside goal but the referee lets it stand, in the end the result still stand. You can argue about it all you like but that is the result, and the players will have to live with it.

I'm happy frankly because the world championship for drivers and constructors are not affected. All I know is that 4 drivers are driving their a$$ off to win the WDC and to me racing is all that matters right now. Cause this messed up situation has got my head worked up so much.

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There are no angels in this case. Both Ferrari and Mclaren are guilty. Mclaren is quilty for possessing those documents, but ferrari is certainly no angel either. They are making the most out of the situation and try to bring down their rivals. Of course, if the roles are reversed, I reckon Mclaren would do the same as well. In the end both teams are the devils.

You can speculate that Mclaren was aware long time ago about coughlan's conduct, or you can speculate that Ferrari knew all along and just play along so that they can set up Mclaren. Either way those are both conspiracy theories that cannot be proved.

The only fact here is that the ruling is made and Mclaren is clear for now. Whether it is fair or not, that is the ruling and everyone has to abide with it. In football, when a player dives and the referee gives a penalty, or when your opponent scores an offside goal but the referee lets it stand, in the end the result still stand. You can argue about it all you like but that is the result, and the players will have to live with it.

I'm happy frankly because the world championship for drivers and constructors are not affected. All I know is that 4 drivers are driving their a$$ off to win the WDC and to me racing is all that matters right now. Cause this messed up situation has got my head worked up so much.

The voice of reason at last. Well said

:clap3:

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weeelll, if Alonso or hamilton win the championship, nice to know they did it in a ferrari ;)

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There are no angels in this case. Both Ferrari and Mclaren are guilty. Mclaren is quilty for possessing those documents, but ferrari is certainly no angel either. They are making the most out of the situation and try to bring down their rivals. Of course, if the roles are reversed, I reckon Mclaren would do the same as well. In the end both teams are the devils.

You can speculate that Mclaren was aware long time ago about coughlan's conduct, or you can speculate that Ferrari knew all along and just play along so that they can set up Mclaren. Either way those are both conspiracy theories that cannot be proved.

The only fact here is that the ruling is made and Mclaren is clear for now. Whether it is fair or not, that is the ruling and everyone has to abide with it. In football, when a player dives and the referee gives a penalty, or when your opponent scores an offside goal but the referee lets it stand, in the end the result still stand. You can argue about it all you like but that is the result, and the players will have to live with it.

I'm happy frankly because the world championship for drivers and constructors are not affected. All I know is that 4 drivers are driving their a$$ off to win the WDC and to me racing is all that matters right now. Cause this messed up situation has got my head worked up so much.

Well said.

I'm not a fan of Ferrari as well McLaren. I only like sporting drivers and teams.

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weeelll, if Alonso or hamilton win the championship, nice to know they did it in a ferrari ;)

:clap3:

Mixed feelings about this... On the one hand i can't believe McLaren is not going to be punished for this but on the other one Ferrari has been cheating for so long that now it's good to see them taking their own medicine :naughty:

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weeelll, if Alonso or hamilton win the championship, nice to know they did it in a ferrari ;)

Yes!

And it's clear that at least one McLaren team member knew he was in possession of illegal documents several months ago, and did nothing about it. That's enough to make the whole team guilty imho.

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Hold on - I have a suspicion that Super Aguri have access to Honda documents, they should be banned! And STR too! Cheating ba$tards!

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Hold on - I have a suspicion that Super Aguri have access to Honda documents, they should be banned! And STR too! Cheating ba$tards!

lmao, good comment :-)

EDIT:

For those who keep going on about mclaren benefiting from the designs, thats a total load of crap, the McLaren car is very very different and was designed well in advance of the so called hand book coming to them. Who knows if they have benefitted since, but we all know the car was good from the start of the season, I see no problems with how the cars are designed from that point of view.

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lmao, good comment :-)

EDIT:

For those who keep going on about mclaren benefiting from the designs, thats a total load of crap, the McLaren car is very very different and was designed well in advance of the so called hand book coming to them. Who knows if they have benefitted since, but we all know the car was good from the start of the season, I see no problems with how the cars are designed from that point of view.

So, knowing how were the soviet's weapons built was also useless, as a Mig, for example is completely different from an F-16... :P

Come on!!! I don't think you are THAT naive! Knowing how was the Ferrari built would be priceless, even if the couldn't even copy a single bolt from Maranello

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Hold on - I have a suspicion that Super Aguri have access to Honda documents, they should be banned! And STR too! Cheating ba$tards!

Well yes actually, there is a strong case that they should be banned, as we've discussed on here before. Of course those situations are totally different, in that those two teams are widely known to be receiving support from other teams, with the consent of the other teams. A quick email to Jean Todt would have informed McLaren and the individuals involved that their possessing the information in question was not acceptable at all (in case this wasn't blindingly obvious). Instead, MC has no excuse. And McLaren have to take responsibility for the actions of their team members.

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So, knowing how were the soviet's weapons built was also useless, as a Mig, for example is completely different from an F-16... :P

Come on!!! I don't think you are THAT naive! Knowing how was the Ferrari built would be priceless, even if the couldn't even copy a single bolt from Maranello

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Well yes actually, there is a strong case that they should be banned, as we've discussed on here before. Of course those situations are totally different, in that those two teams are widely known to be receiving support from other teams, with the consent of the other teams. A quick email to Jean Todt would have informed McLaren and the individuals involved that their possessing the information in question was not acceptable at all (in case this wasn't blindingly obvious). Instead, MC has no excuse. And McLaren have to take responsibility for the actions of their team members.

This is all based on mclaren team members knowing about the document, so far this has been denied by all sources and we live in a society where you are innocent until proven guilty. On the last sentance where mclaren take responsibility for team members actions, heres a scenario I played out in an alternative forum:

Imagine you were the boss at a company of 600 people and someone was found smoking in the toilet - would you like it that you were fined a million bucks due to the action of an employee that was out of your control and done in secret?

Now add to that the fact this employee had already asked you to cancel his contract early as he was no longer happy working for you?

Now add the fact it wasn't actually done in a toilet at your company, it was done at a toilet at a public park.

Do you think you should be fined or penalised for one of 600 people going to a public parks toilet and smoking a cig?

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This is all based on mclaren team members knowing about the document, so far this has been denied by all sources and we live in a society where you are innocent until proven guilty.

No, at least one team member certainly knew about the documents for a long time. That's all my post was based on.

On the last sentance where mclaren take responsibility for team members actions, heres a scenario I played out in an alternative forum:

Imagine you were the boss at a company of 600 people and someone was found smoking in the toilet - would you like it that you were fined a million bucks due to the action of an employee that was out of your control and done in secret?

Now add to that the fact this employee had already asked you to cancel his contract early as he was no longer happy working for you?

Now add the fact it wasn't actually done in a toilet at your company, it was done at a toilet at a public park.

Do you think you should be fined or penalised for one of 600 people going to a public parks toilet and smoking a cig?

Well it's an interesting scenario but it's not relevant. We are talking about a member of a sporting team who has cheated. The rules in sport are totally different to those for companies and non-smoking policies, as you might imagine! If a footballer insults the referee, his whole team is punished by the red card. A manager would look pretty stupid shouting: "I didn't tell him to swear so can I put another player on?" The point is that sport is a competition, and the teams are judged by the combined actions of their members, good and bad. That's the whole point of a sporting contest between teams. In a company the only issue is making sure the law is obeyed for the benefit of everyone concerned, so you don't automatically have to punish one company for an infringement. The other difference is that the example you give weakens the offense dramatically. As Andres said, MC looking at this information is very serious, and could easily result in an advantage for the team.

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No, at least one team member certainly knew about the documents for a long time. That's all my post was based on.

I presume this is Coughlin? Which in that case is true.

Well it's an interesting scenario but it's not relevant. We are talking about a member of a sporting team who has cheated. The rules in sport are totally different to those for companies and non-smoking policies, as you might imagine! If a footballer insults the referee, his whole team is punished by the red card. A manager would look pretty stupid shouting: "I didn't tell him to swear so can I put another player on?" The point is that sport is a competition, and the teams are judged by the combined actions of their members, good and bad. That's the whole point of a sporting contest between teams. In a company the only issue is making sure the law is obeyed for the benefit of everyone concerned, so you don't automatically have to punish one company for an infringement. The other difference is that the example you give weakens the offense dramatically. As Andres said, MC looking at this information is very serious, and could easily result in an advantage for the team.

All the examples we come up with are wrong for there various reasons, a footballer getting a red car is in front of the public view, something happened that everyone saw. The real scenario here is that it was 1 employee with a hidden agenda whom has not shared any of the knowledge with his current team, the evidence that has unfolded *suggests* he was preparing to take it to a rival, such as Honda Racing. I really cannot see why such an event should penalise the team they have a contract with. Given the football scenario you describe above, if the player was given the red card who actually gets the punishment, the team? Not really, he may miss 89 minutes of the game or 1 minute. The player does however get punished, regardless of which team he is at, by match bans I presume this is still correct, I haven't been a football fan for over 12 years!). I can easily see a reason for the FIA to pursue legal action on the former mclaren employee but to punish the team for actions out of their reasonable control is just stupidity.

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Whether it happens in public view is irrelevant. Cheating is cheating and should be punished the same way irrespective of whether it was public or not.

The team should be penalised because its performance is judged by the actions of its members, good or bad. That's how team competitions work.

In football the team is punished as much as the player. (Match bans for example affect the team too.)

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Whether it happens in public view is irrelevant. Cheating is cheating and should be punished the same way irrespective of whether it was public or not.

The team should be penalised because its performance is judged by the actions of its members, good or bad. That's how team competitions work.

In football the team is punished as much as the player. (Match bans for example affect the team too.)

In my oipnion, everything is down to Eccelstone.

The conversation behind the scene could be:

"Hei Todt and Montezemolo, I have given too much advantage to Ferrari and your Stepney just screwed up my F1 business, I can't let you guys continue to spoil my business and the sport. From now on, my swiss account will not accept your money anymore although you guys are Mafia alike. I will hire the best bodyguards in the world to make myself safe. Just make sure you guys won't produce another Stepney in the future. Please improve your internal/management policy to avoid such Sh#t again."

:naughty:

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:lol: Yes it will have been dealt with in private. I imagine McLaren faced some kind of "punishment" in the form of a weakened negotiating position.

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:lol: Yes it will have been dealt with in private. I imagine McLaren faced some kind of "punishment" in the form of a weakened negotiating position.

weakened, they have better been striped of any voice in F1.

what we can't forget is that what Merc had in its possession was hundreds of work hours by hundreds of people. The guys at Ferrari put their blood and sweat into building those cars and probably put some of their soul into it too the way Italy loves Ferrari. But what Merc did was to take all that work and make it worthless. How would you feel if you had been working on something for the last 5 years and then all of a sudden you find out that it was in vain because you did all that work for someone else?

Ferrari might have bent the rules over the years, but thats what you do, bent them until they almost break but not an inch further. Most people probably don't like that Idea and thats why they don't like Ferrari but you have to think that F1 isn't about playing fair or even, its about winning. And Ferrari got penalized just as much as the other teams, the only reason people always say they have the FIA in their back pocket is because people didn't like the fact that Ferrari broke rules those people had set up in their own minds that are not expressly part of the given set of rules. But what Merc did, and the WMSC said it did was that it was standing miles outside of the given box and they did not penalize them even a bit. So if a deal was struck in private, which I dont think giving the actions and words of Ferrari, then it have better lost every ounce of voice it had in F1. Spyker better have twice its voice from now on.

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weakened, they have better been striped of any voice in F1.

what we can't forget is that what Merc had in its possession was hundreds of work hours by hundreds of people. The guys at Ferrari put their blood and sweat into building those cars and probably put some of their soul into it too the way Italy loves Ferrari. But what Merc did was to take all that work and make it worthless. How would you feel if you had been working on something for the last 5 years and then all of a sudden you find out that it was in vain because you did all that work for someone else?

Ferrari might have bent the rules over the years, but thats what you do, bent them until they almost break but not an inch further. Most people probably don't like that Idea and thats why they don't like Ferrari but you have to think that F1 isn't about playing fair or even, its about winning. And Ferrari got penalized just as much as the other teams, the only reason people always say they have the FIA in their back pocket is because people didn't like the fact that Ferrari broke rules those people had set up in their own minds that are not expressly part of the given set of rules. But what Merc did, and the WMSC said it did was that it was standing miles outside of the given box and they did not penalize them even a bit. So if a deal was struck in private, which I dont think giving the actions and words of Ferrari, then it have better lost every ounce of voice it had in F1. Spyker better have twice its voice from now on.

Every sport is about playing fair. That is the idea when you start a sport. Sports are games or activities regulated by a set of rules. If you don't accept the rules, it becomes rather pointless.

I know it is also a business and blah blah blah. If business is an excuse for breaking the rules, then business equals criminality, something many of us have been aware for quite some time now... :P

Anyways, I bit off topic, but my thoughts on that particular phrase. I have no idea if you were just being sarcastic. Many people says things like that and they are not being sarcastic. Shame.

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Every sport is about playing fair. That is the idea when you start a sport. Sports are games or activities regulated by a set of rules. If you don't accept the rules, it becomes rather pointless.

I know it is also a business and blah blah blah. If business is an excuse for breaking the rules, then business equals criminality, something many of us have been aware for quite some time now... :P

Anyways, I bit off topic, but my thoughts on that particular phrase. I have no idea if you were just being sarcastic. Many people says things like that and they are not being sarcastic. Shame.

Ok, I reread my post, and the way that phrasing made it sound wasn't what I was trying to say, maybe I should proof read my posts :huh:

I think if you read further I make a bit more sense. I have been reading this book a bit, http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-w...ow-free-online/ , cool thats its online for free because the author thought it would be good to do. It may be about Video games but it can be applied to many things.

As he says, in a certain situations there is a given set of rules. So lets take F1. F1 has a set of rules, and those are the rules you need to follow. He says though, as I find is true, people will creat their own rules for the sport or game based on morality, or ethics, or what they think is fair, and in doing so they limit their chances at winning. Now the best of the best don't do this, they look at only whats black on white and thats what Ferrari have done all these years. Now people call it cheap or cheating but nothing Ferrari have done was against any rules and if it was the FIA struck them down, Flexi wings, floors anybody? Now maybe the drivers did something on track but that is different, we are talking about the team.

Ferrari in those instances where people say it broke a rule it only broke rules those people have established in their own minds. Austria 02 wasn't against the rules at the time, but people had made it a rule in their minds and so were angry, and thus it was made a rule later. When Ferrari did something clearly against the rules they were punished just like BAR or other teams, but Merc did something against the rules and did not get punished and that is what is making people angry and they have a right to be angry.

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Ok, I reread my post, and the way that phrasing made it sound wasn't what I was trying to say, maybe I should proof read my posts :huh:

I think if you read further I make a bit more sense. I have been reading this book a bit, http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-w...ow-free-online/ , cool thats its online for free because the author thought it would be good to do. It may be about Video games but it can be applied to many things.

As he says, in a certain situations there is a given set of rules. So lets take F1. F1 has a set of rules, and those are the rules you need to follow. He says though, as I find is true, people will creat their own rules for the sport or game based on morality, or ethics, or what they think is fair, and in doing so they limit their chances at winning. Now the best of the best don't do this, they look at only whats black on white and thats what Ferrari have done all these years. Now people call it cheap or cheating but nothing Ferrari have done was against any rules and if it was the FIA struck them down, Flexi wings, floors anybody? Now maybe the drivers did something on track but that is different, we are talking about the team.

Ferrari in those instances where people say it broke a rule it only broke rules those people have established in their own minds. Austria 02 wasn't against the rules at the time, but people had made it a rule in their minds and so were angry, and thus it was made a rule later. When Ferrari did something clearly against the rules they were punished just like BAR or other teams, but Merc did something against the rules and did not get punished and that is what is making people angry and they have a right to be angry.

Nah, no need to proof read them! My post was just an off topic inspired in that particular phrase. I feel that many times an oversimplified darwinism is a poor excuse for cynical foul play in every aspect of modern life (I should make a blog entry about this instead of posting here).

That book sounds intriguing as well as your ideas about morals and rules. It is a very deep concept so I will look more into it before replying to you with one of my usual shallow jokes! :lol:

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