Lifelong Mclaren Fan Totally Fed Up.

[AleHop 0]

I am a US fan of F1 and live in Indianapolis. I have faithfully attended all the GP's here in Indy and have developed a love of the sport. The amount of talent that F1 drivers have compared to any other racing in amazing. It truely is the pinnacle of motor sport.

I feel today like I was hit in the gut by the FIA amazing justification for no sanction. I have admired Ron Dennis as an owner and loved watching Mika and Schumey have at it on the track. But to have in your possession the plans for your main rivals car is not just unethical, it is in complete breach of the sporting rules. There is a great article by Thomas O'Keefe in Autosport from July 25th that explains the statement that the team signs before the season. It says:

"We confirm that we have read and understand the provisions of the International Sporting Code, the 1998 Concorde Agreement (including its Schedules), the 2007 Formula One Technical Regulations and the 2007 Formula One Sporting Regulations. We agree to be bound by them [...] and further we agree on our own behalf and on behalf of everyone associated with our participation in the 2007 FIA Formula One World Championship to observe them."

Rod Dennis agreed that he is the leader of the McLaren team and that all of the organization would follow the rules. They did not. Ron ran away from his agreement and the FIA helped him. Even more, the FIA has now endorsed any cheating that you can think of as long as you claim to not use it on your car.

My personal opinion of F1 has now been destroyed. The FIA has proven their complete lack of judgement. I will not be able to watch a race without this sick feeling in my stomach. I have no faith that the results that I see on Sunday are authentic. It will be some time before I can follow F1 again. I am truely a sad F1 fan.

I wouldn't be able to say it better.

[AleHop 0]

One thing more.

Remember Juventus and Milan?

1) What would you think about italian football if they had not penalized those teams?

2) What would you have said if it had been Ferrari who had McLaren's documents?

F1 is no sporting, just business. And FIA is just another stock holder.

[Max Mosley 2]

No you don't

look,it's not bad if you disagree with me!I always(well...almost always!) like it when others don't agree with me!It's more fun!

That boy Andres^^ is butt ugly isn't he?

PS Sorry Andres, she asked me to say it! Blame her.

[Max Mosley 2]

F1 is no sporting, just business. And FIA is just another stock holder.

Exactomondo amigo.

[monza gorilla 1]

Student Grant?

[pabloh20 1]

look,it's not bad if you disagree with me!I always(well...almost always!) like it when others don't agree with me!It's more fun!

Woa there, hold hard cully. I never said I agreed with you, just that I was pulling your leg!

[angie 0]

Woa there, hold hard cully. I never said I agreed with you, just that I was pulling your leg!

yeah,that's what i'm saying too!It's not a problem if you don't agree with me!In contrary,i like it!It's more than normal when 2 people disagree!

[Quiet One 15]

yeah,that's what i'm saying too!It's not a problem if you don't agree with me!In contrary,i like it!It's more than normal when 2 people disagree!

No, It's not.

[angie 0]

No, It's not.

Oh my god!!!!You are making me hate the phrase"no.It's not."I just want you to tell me why!You remind me of my dad,every time i ask him to do something and he says no, i ask him why and he says "because i say so!"That really gets on my nerves!

[Quiet One 15]

Oh my god!!!!You are making me hate the phrase"no.It's not."I just want you to tell me why!You remind me of my dad,every time i ask him to do something and he says no, i ask him why and he says "because i say so!"That really gets on my nerves!

No, it doesn't.

Hey! You said you didn't like people agreeing with you...I am just disagreeing with you all the time

[KoolMonkey 0]

Sorry but those are really, really lame reasons to stop supporting a team. I shall deal with the issues seperately:

1) The podium. Please explain what u mean by Ron's arrogance. We saw him pointing at Schuey, telling Alonso to spray him with bubbly. Most of us thought that was quite amusing, & shows Ron is a human! As a lifelong mclaren fan I would've thought you'd find it funny too?

2) The spy scandal. It looks as if Mclaren were completely unaware that Coughlan had the documents at his house. As soon as Ron found out, Coughlan was suspended. Mclaren has never been done for cheating, so why lay the blame at Ron and his team?

3) Hamilton. Your anger is at ITV and the media, not at mclaren, so what are you on about?

If you really were a mclaren fan, you wouldnt be making these comments I dont think. I'm still a fan! Rons a legend.

As for Hamilton, he's doing an amazing job and why the hell should media hype/coverage cause you to dislike someone just cos they're getting too much attention. Thats not Hami's fault is it?

If you buy the baloney that McLaren were not aware of Coughlan having the documents until only the past month, then what can I say to persuade that. I'll leave it to the ton of information out there in the public domain that shows McLaren knew about this well in advance of the date they said they knew.

It's preposterous to think that McLaren are in the clear. They only suspended Coughlan when it was no longer possible for them to keep it in-house and quiet. There's one simple thing McLaren should have done and didn't do that would have proved their innocence. They should have fired Coughlan immediately upon finding out he had the documents, as well as informing Ferrari, the FIA and the relevant authorities. Instead they played dumb with this whole we didn't know rubbish, he acted alone hoohah and so on.

As far as Ron's behavior on the podium, he came across as a prick. I loath Schumacher. Go ahead and look at my post history on this website and you'll find I've never said a good word or come to his defense on anything. I still think he's a dishonest dirty driver. So take it however you like when I say that what I saw when Schu presented the trophy to Ron and what followed was either a joke that I certainly didn't think was funny, or an arrogant guy named Ron rubbing it in. That was neither the time nor place for such behavior. The closest thing I can think to compare this to was when James Cameron gave his acceptance speech for winning best director for Titanic. Only a few moments before he was up on stage talking about the victims of the Titanic and being serious and a little humble. The next he's a total twat proclaiming himself the king of the world in the most arrogant fashion. Up to that point I had always liked Ron. I loved how he did things, how he wouldn't bow down, how he loved to fight on the track, in the pits and so on. But no longer. He may have an impeccable reputation, but that doesn't mean I have to follow him. And in light of the information that has been revealed concerning the spy saga, I don't trust him.

Concerning ITV and Hamilton, that to me was simply the icing on the cake. You are right in that it's ITV fault. I don't want to hear about Ron, Hamilton or anything McLaren for quite sometime. Whatever happens to this spy scandal, I still hope for more troubles ahead for LH. It's not that I hate the guy, he just needs a dose of reality and hopefully it will shut the ****ing media up about the guy. Bruno Senna (?) I think if my memory is correct said that you could have put any one of a half dozen drivers into this years McLaren and they too would be getting the results that Hamilton has gotten. I think that's a bit of a stretch, but at the same time, it is true to a degree. Put LH in a Spyker or a RBR and we wouldn't even know who he is. Same driver, same talent, different tools.

[Oli 1]

Please point me to some reliably sourced information that McLaren knew about the documents well in advance of the date they said they knew. You've posted in several threads that it's self-evident that McLaren were well aware of the documents, but haven't provided anything concrete as yet.

If you really are or were a fan of the team you'd be prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt rather than listening to the idle speculation of the press. What is evident is that Coughlan had the documents. If you disagree with the punishment they received (or lack thereof) then that's fair enough, but I don't see what your other accusations are based on.

As far as Ron's behaviour on the podium goes, I personally think it was quite funny, but I can see how you would have thought it was arrogant of him. Still, MS came off a lot worse- sulking like a little boy.

And I think if you listen to Bruno Senna's comments about Hamilton's performance then you really do need your head examining. That is hardly an unbiased source!

[Jean Todt 4]

Please point me to some reliably sourced information that McLaren knew about the documents well in advance of the date they said they knew. You've posted in several threads that it's self-evident that McLaren were well aware of the documents, but haven't provided anything concrete as yet.

If you really are or were a fan of the team you'd be prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt rather than listening to the idle speculation of the press. What is evident is that Coughlan had the documents. If you disagree with the punishment they received (or lack thereof) then that's fair enough, but I don't see what your other accusations are based on.

As far as Ron's behaviour on the podium goes, I personally think it was quite funny, but I can see how you would have thought it was arrogant of him. Still, MS came off a lot worse- sulking like a little boy.

And I think if you listen to Bruno Senna's comments about Hamilton's performance then you really do need your head examining. That is hardly an unbiased source!

I agree with you.

First of all,

Even if Ron were cheating, He is too clever to let those doccuments pass outside his control and let them photocopy those papers outside (that too with the word "CONFIDENTIAL" sealed on it. There is not a single photocopying machine in Mclaren Technology center? Which is supposed to be Techno showcase in Britan?

Have they proven that it was Nigel who had sent it to them? What if it was someone else who sent it?

It would be foolish for one to belive that Mclaren were able to prove the moveable floor in Ferrari were illegal just because they had those doccuments! since Mclaren were able to prove Renault's Mass dampers were illegal. When Ferrari had complaint about Renault's dampers Ferrari lost the case, But Mclaren proved that they were illegal.

So, Mclaren and Ferrari illegaly got their hand's on Renault's cars? Go back in history, you will find out that there are some people who pass or leak information on team's secrets once they leave their respective teams. The team who gain those informations are not at fault, it is the one who passes it. No one would have known about Honda's Second tank if no one leaked it.

http://formula-1.updatesport.com/news/arti...music/view.html

What those guys were doing were simply like the boys who post the nude pics of their ex gfs on the internet.

If Ferrari are playing fair by accusing Mclaren on Spying, then Mclaren have every right to accuse Ferrari for playing tricks in past.

Anyone rememeber the missing tyres from Michelin trucks? Just days later Ferrari proved that they were illegal!

[angie 0]

No, it doesn't.

Hey! You said you didn't like people agreeing with you...I am just disagreeing with you all the time

I want people to disagree with me but i also want them to tell me why !Otherwise it's meaningless...

[NeoData 0]

Sorry but those are really, really lame reasons to stop supporting a team. I shall deal with the issues seperately:

1) The podium. Please explain what u mean by Ron's arrogance. We saw him pointing at Schuey, telling Alonso to spray him with bubbly. Most of us thought that was quite amusing, & shows Ron is a human! As a lifelong mclaren fan I would've thought you'd find it funny too?

2) The spy scandal. It looks as if Mclaren were completely unaware that Coughlan had the documents at his house. As soon as Ron found out, Coughlan was suspended. Mclaren has never been done for cheating, so why lay the blame at Ron and his team?

3) Hamilton. Your anger is at ITV and the media, not at mclaren, so what are you on about?

If you really were a mclaren fan, you wouldnt be making these comments I dont think. I'm still a fan! Rons a legend.

As for Hamilton, he's doing an amazing job and why the hell should media hype/coverage cause you to dislike someone just cos they're getting too much attention. Thats not Hami's fault is it?

Well said

[KoolMonkey 0]

Please point me to some reliably sourced information that McLaren knew about the documents well in advance of the date they said they knew. You've posted in several threads that it's self-evident that McLaren were well aware of the documents, but haven't provided anything concrete as yet.

If you really are or were a fan of the team you'd be prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt rather than listening to the idle speculation of the press. What is evident is that Coughlan had the documents. If you disagree with the punishment they received (or lack thereof) then that's fair enough, but I don't see what your other accusations are based on.

As far as Ron's behaviour on the podium goes, I personally think it was quite funny, but I can see how you would have thought it was arrogant of him. Still, MS came off a lot worse- sulking like a little boy.

And I think if you listen to Bruno Senna's comments about Hamilton's performance then you really do need your head examining. That is hardly an unbiased source!

This is one of the better and clearest examples I've read concerning who knew what, when and so on.

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_new...es_art_id=32269

I disagree with your assessment that if I was truly a fan, I'd give them the benefit of the doubt. That means no matter what they do I'd have to adhere to that way of thinking and always blindly believing them. At first I was actually p**sed that McLaren were dragged into this. Then it became more apparent they knew a heck of a lot more than they let on. It's possible Ron didn't know anything about this whole thing, but Coughlan sure did and told others about it.

Unbiased opinion or not concerning Bruno, you know what he says is ito some degree true. Kubica, Heikki and other rookies would all be getting podiums and possible wins if driving that same McLaren. I did mention I didn't agree with him totally as LH clearly has some amazing talent. But we all know in this day and age, talent only accounts for so much. A Spyker is a Spyker and no matter whose driving it, it's not ever going to win a race.

[Jem of the Shire 0]

Unbiased opinion or not concerning Bruno, you know what he says is ito some degree true. Kubica, Heikki and other rookies would all be getting podiums and possible wins if driving that same McLaren. I did mention I didn't agree with him totally as LH clearly has some amazing talent. But we all know in this day and age, talent only accounts for so much. A Spyker is a Spyker and no matter whose driving it, it's not ever going to win a race.

I still dont understand why that causes you to dislike Hamilton. From your explanations it would appear that you dislike any driver in a top car, because any driver could get good results in a top car?

[AleHop 0]

I hate seeing how media and many of you are giving credit to McLaren because it would be a REAL and BIG scandal if it had been Schumi and Ferrari who had documents about McLaren.

[Fed up 0]

I hate seeing how media and many of you are giving credit to McLaren because it would be a REAL and BIG scandal if it had been Schumi and Ferrari who had documents about McLaren.

Definitely if it were Schumi and Ferrari the whole world have been up in arms crying foul/cheat etc. etc. Ron Dennis would have taken a high moral stance accusing Ferrari of all sorts and every former F1 champ would have come out and said all his records have been devalued by the saga - blah blah blah

However, Schumi has retired now so we can all go back to hating Ferrari and, who wants to see the current darling of F1, Lewis, thrown out for mere cheating.

Sports fans are fickle.

[Jean Todt 4]

I hate seeing how media and many of you are giving credit to McLaren because it would be a REAL and BIG scandal if it had been Schumi and Ferrari who had documents about McLaren.

There are many things that Schumi and Ferrari have done in the past and got away with it. But lately it seems they cant have their good old days.

[KoolMonkey 0]

I still dont understand why that causes you to dislike Hamilton. From your explanations it would appear that you dislike any driver in a top car, because any driver could get good results in a top car?

Good question. I don't dislike LH in the sense of say me not liking Schumi. There's just an air about the guy that is something beyond confidence. Senna had a kind of arrogant way about him and it never bothered me. Irvine too had that kind of don't give a Sh#t attitude. But with Lewis I just get this feeling the guy thinks he's the second coming and all his results have been down to him. It's like the music bands that breakup due to egos. While coherent in a band situation where each person is doing their thing, some feel the real reason they were successful is down to them and only them. That's the vibe I get from Lewis. That's why I'd love for him to crash more, experience engine blowups and get a real dose of what F1 is actually about. He's clearly had things always go his way in life and it shows. The guy's living in a bubble world here with the media worshipping him and all the attention. So to answer your questions about any driver being in a top car and my disliking their good results, that's only applicable in this case and that's Lewis. The guy will for sure win WDCs. I don't doubt that. What drives me nuts is this holier than though attitude surrounding him.

[Fed up 0]

Good question. I don't dislike LH in the sense of say me not liking Schumi. There's just an air about the guy that is something beyond confidence. Senna had a kind of arrogant way about him and it never bothered me. Irvine too had that kind of don't give a Sh#t attitude. But with Lewis I just get this feeling the guy thinks he's the second coming and all his results have been down to him. It's like the music bands that breakup due to egos. While coherent in a band situation where each person is doing their thing, some feel the real reason they were successful is down to them and only them. That's the vibe I get from Lewis. That's why I'd love for him to crash more, experience engine blowups and get a real dose of what F1 is actually about. He's clearly had things always go his way in life and it shows. The guy's living in a bubble world here with the media worshipping him and all the attention. So to answer your questions about any driver being in a top car and my disliking their good results, that's only applicable in this case and that's Lewis. The guy will for sure win WDCs. I don't doubt that. What drives me nuts is this holier than though attitude surrounding him.

You have a negative disposition mate as you tend to find the bad where there is good - negative where there is positive. Your posts above are just rumblings and dont make sense. How can you lose support for a team just because they manage to escape a sanction and have a very capable young driver. Surely I 'lifelong' fan would be celebrating in the apparent leniency afforded to the team and lauding the talent of the young Lewis.

The Lewis Hamilton story touches most because of it's origins. Here is a young mixed race kid from a working class family that has achieved all he has in motorsport due to his hard work and dedication. It is one thing to be fast and determined at age 8, but another to keep that going aged 21 - You cannot see it, because you cant and no amount of success achieved by Lewis will change your mind - That is your problem.

Live and let live and try to focus on the brighter things in life, rather than wasting your energy on the negative.

Just my 2c

[Quiet One 15]

I want people to disagree with me but i also want them to tell me why !Otherwise it's meaningless...

No, it isn't!

(I am just kidding, Angie! I know what you mean)

[reds88 0]

I tried my best to believe that Mclaren were not guilty but the more I think about it, the more I realise they are somehow guilty to a certain extent. But that does not mean I wont support Mclaren anymore. We have to stick to our teams through thick and thin mate.

I dont get itv coverage, so I dont know how bad it is, but from what I heard they certainly are hamilton-biased. But it aint the guy's fault that itv is worshipping hamilton.

[Oli 1]

This is one of the better and clearest examples I've read concerning who knew what, when and so on.

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_new...es_art_id=32269

I disagree with your assessment that if I was truly a fan, I'd give them the benefit of the doubt. That means no matter what they do I'd have to adhere to that way of thinking and always blindly believing them. At first I was actually p**sed that McLaren were dragged into this. Then it became more apparent they knew a heck of a lot more than they let on. It's possible Ron didn't know anything about this whole thing, but Coughlan sure did and told others about it.

Unbiased opinion or not concerning Bruno, you know what he says is ito some degree true. Kubica, Heikki and other rookies would all be getting podiums and possible wins if driving that same McLaren. I did mention I didn't agree with him totally as LH clearly has some amazing talent. But we all know in this day and age, talent only accounts for so much. A Spyker is a Spyker and no matter whose driving it, it's not ever going to win a race.

That article simply states Jean Todt's opinion of the verdict. He merely postulates the view that he believes that McLaren had knowledge of the affair before it broke. At no point does he provide any evidence of this, he is merely stating his opinion. But his true criticism is reserved for the verdict, which is perfectly acceptable. What's not acceptable is to extrapolate that because he says something might be true, that it definitely is.

And as for Bruno......why do I know what he says is in some degree true? I simply disagree with the statement (based on NO evidence whatsoever) that any driver would be getting the results Lewis has just because of the McLaren's prowess. You have a right to have that opinion, but to state it as some kind of proven fact is absurd. My opinion is that the double world champion has been significantly tested by Hamilton, and that proves that Hamilton has a talent which would not be reproducible by any random driver who hopped in a McLaren.