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Car Or Driver

Car or Driver  

34 members have voted

  1. 1. Car or Driver

    • Car
      24
    • Driver
      10


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I'm sure this must have been asked before, but a search turned up nothing, so I'll give it a go.

We've all seen great or promising drivers (Alesi, Sutil, even Senna) languish in uncompetitive cars, but we've also seen great drivers (Alesi and Senna again) do great things in lethargic cars.

So, will a great driver pull out a fantastic performance in a slow car, or will a mediocre driver repeatedly pull podiums out of the best car on the grid?

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Car.

It should be driver.

But it is in fact car.

That is why McLaren and Ferrari have won every race this year. Car, car, car. Jenson is a very good driver, in my opinion, yet he's scored a total of 1 point this year because of the car.

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It's both really and I think it changes depending on how good a car is... I think a driver can make a 'bigger' difference in a car that's a handful to drive, whereas there will be less to choose between drivers in a brilliant car. At the end of the day you can have the best car in the world, but if you have a crap driver you aren't going to get there. You can have the best driver in the world, but if you have a crap car you aren't going to get there... Look at Fisi, in a bad car he seemed real good, but give him the WDC winning car and he just can't perform so it's not just about the car. There are aspects of the sport which means a driver can't make as much of an affect as maybe they could do such as overtaking. I think if overtaking chances were improved then the sport would be just fine.

I don't know whether it should be about drivers more; it's a team sport first and foremost.

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That is why McLaren and Ferrari have won every race this year. Car, car, car. Jenson is a very good driver, in my opinion, yet he's scored a total of 1 point this year because of the car.

It does seem to be a bit more about the car this year, doesn't it? I think maybe when the difference between the best and worst car on the grid is very small, a great driver can still shine.

But if there's a huge difference, like between Spyker and McLaren, then you get what's happening between Lewis and Adrian.

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car. and then car again!

The car must give the driver a good performance and reliability and after those conditions are granted the driver can make the difference. With today F1 there is at least 2 factors missing from the equation: tactics and track. On yesteday F1 a pit stop was equal to lost not only the race but to score any point, so the driver must manage tyres performance and engine reliability without telemetry and any electronic aid so his contribution was bigger than today. Today we all know there are tracks better for gokarts than for F1 without overtaking possibilities (do you hear me Magny Cours?).

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Clearly both car and driver have some effect on the points scored by a driver in a given race. But I think the car is far more important. Tbh I think that's cut and dried. If you take an average driver and put him in a top car for one race he'll do well. But take the best driver and put him in an average car and generally speaking he'll not do much better than average. The driver's biggest contribution is in developing the car, inspiring the team, and not making stupid mistakes. Over the long term he can make a modest impact there. Apart from that, the car is dominant.

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Both are needed for the WDCs.

Look at

Fisi vs. Alonso 2005 and 2006

Patresse vs. Mansell 1992

Andretti (Michael) vs. Senna 1993

if you think it's just the car.

I would also have to add tactics and track.

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car. and then car again!

The car must give the driver a good performance and reliability and after those conditions are granted the driver can make the difference. With today F1 there is at least 2 factors missing from the equation: tactics and track. On yesteday F1 a pit stop was equal to lost not only the race but to score any point, so the driver must manage tyres performance and engine reliability without telemetry and any electronic aid so his contribution was bigger than today. Today we all know there are tracks better for gokarts than for F1 without overtaking possibilities (do you hear me Magny Cours?).

Cars broke back then irrelevant of how good the drivers were. As for drivers, a few of them really bothered with input, now everyone's doing it. And you have to work in one season/year more than you did in 3 seasons/years back then. Driver back went to Indy, Le Mans, wherever, now they're doing testing, working out or are at PR events. The old boys had it easy actually.

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Both are needed for the WDCs.

Look at

Fisi vs. Alonso 2005 and 2006

Patresse vs. Mansell 1992

Andretti (Michael) vs. Senna 1993

if you think it's just the car.

I would also have to add tactics and track.

Of course if both cars are equal the better driver will prevail, but stick Alonso in a Spyker and Fisi in a McLaren and see how that goes.

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Definitive the driver, in 2006 we had only 5 255 580 inhabitants in Finland and still we produce worldclass drivers in different motorsport every year. So i think here in Finland we are very proud of our drivers in fourwheel and twowheel motorsport genre.

And a super motorsport weekend coming up...F1 in Hungary and WRC here in Finland :clap3:

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Of course if both cars are equal the better driver will prevail, but stick Alonso in a Spyker and Fisi in a McLaren and see how that goes.

Exactly! In fact in both of those years Fisi did much better than he ought to have done (by dint of his car presumably). You're comparing the very best driver with one of the worst. Also we all know that Alonso was the favoured driver for most of that time at Renault - I'm not saying they were overtly biased like Ferrari, but he had an extra advantage.

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Both are needed for the WDCs.

WDC=World Drivers' Championship.

Why should anyone deserve to be a driving champion if all they did was have a superior car? That says nothing about how good they really are.

Now, since you said "WDCs" I think you meant World Championships as in WDC and WCC, in which case, yes, you need the car for the WCC, but I don't think a WCC needs to exist, because you don't need teams, because you shouldn't. But I guess it is the pinnacle of motorsport and not the pinnacle of driving.

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WDC=World Drivers' Championship.

Why should anyone deserve to be a driving champion if all they did was have a superior car? That says nothing about how good they really are.

Now, since you said "WDCs" I think you meant World Championships as in WDC and WCC, in which case, yes, you need the car for the WCC, but I don't think a WCC needs to exist, because you don't need teams, because you shouldn't. But I guess it is the pinnacle of motorsport and not the pinnacle of driving.

I meant WCs as in WDC + WCC.

The WCC's reason to exist is ever greater than that of the WDC.

The only reason GP/F1 exists is because 101 years ago the car manufacturers agreed with ACF to make the first Grand Prix. Without their positive response and participation we would have no F1 today.

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I meant WCs as in WDC + WCC.

The WCC's reason to exist is ever greater than that of the WDC.

The only reason GP/F1 exists is because 101 years ago the car manufacturers agreed with ACF to make the first Grand Prix. Without their positive response and participation we would have no F1 today.

Alright, I kinda figured (and hoped) it was a typo.

I can see why you need car manufactures, they are huge financial resource for the sport, but I just wish there was a way to get rid of them...

I understand the historical part of why we shouldn't get rid of them, but like I've said, everything breaks from tradition, and honestly, if it would be better for the sport, they should do it. But you can't please everyone, I guess. Most people would be p**sed if the WCC was gone and they all drove spec cars.

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Exactly! In fact in both of those years Fisi did much better than he ought to have done (by dint of his car presumably). You're comparing the very best driver with one of the worst. Also we all know that Alonso was the favoured driver for most of that time at Renault - I'm not saying they were overtly biased like Ferrari, but he had an extra advantage.

But from another perspective, what would have Renault (with a good car) won with 2 drivers like Fisico ?!

Answer 2 victories per seasons instead of 2 WCs.

BTW I don't like Massa in a Ferrari either.

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The driver should always rely on the car! All the driver has to do is put his foot down & keep it in 1 peace & hopefully get a few points or a win, or a world title or 2! reliability is most important in F1. RBR haven't showed that at all & STR are'nt showing team reliability beither with the whole Speed-Toast incident which is a joke in my case!

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The driver should always rely on the car!

I'm going to disagree with you.

If these are the 22 best drivers in the world, can't they rely on their own damn talent and not the car?

Yes, right now, I do agree that the driver does rely on the car, but saying that they should is something I really disagree with.

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But from another perspective, what would have Renault (with a good car) won with 2 drivers like Fisico ?!

Answer 2 victories per seasons instead of 2 WCs.

BTW I don't like Massa in a Ferrari either.

Yes so put 2 of the worst drivers in the best car and you *only* get 2 victories per season!

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Since the question was Car or Driver and not a mixture of both, it has to be the Car.

Granted great drivers can get more out of a car than a mediocre driver. But in this age of electronics, there are no missed gear changes, slip ups or anything else, so that has closed the gap between the great and the junk drivers. The car does so many things that the great drivers from ages past had to deal with in skill. Traction control, seamless shifting, heck the list goes on.

It's not all the car though. Choose one of the worst drivers from years past, maybe Alex Young (I don't want to be mean to the guy, but his named popped into my head ^_^ ). Put him in this years Ferrari or McLaren and he wouldn't be getting the results that the current drivers of those cars are. Another good example is Fisi & Alonso. Unless Renault really did give Alonso the best car, Fisi simply could not deliver.

So in the year of 2007 it's predominantly car over driver.

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The car gets you to the front, but the driver gets you to the checkered flag.

Fangio put the ratio at about 70-30 in favor of the car. That's correct, but it needs a bit of explaining. There are years where one team has a supremely dominant car to the point that the championship was really about which teammate would win but those years are not typical. A typical season sees at least two or three teams having dominant cars, and they battle each other for the championship. This is the '70%' Fangio was talking about. You need to have the car to put you at the front, but there will be other teams with very close-performing cars so Fangio's 70% only gets you into the position for a win.

The driver provides the final, and I think most important, 30% to take that car and beat the one (or two) teams that have nearly equal machinery.

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I disagree (of course!). Fangio later said this:

"In my day it was 75 percent car and mechanics, 25 percent driver and luck. Today it is 95 percent car. A driver can emerge in a good new car, become world champion, and a year later disappear to the back of the queue. Driving skill hardly counts any more."

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driver, a really good driver can win in any car, because they makethe car good.

Car affected by = money (for facilities, car parts, technology and etc) + human resources + team experience + others

Dirver affected by = skills + physical capability + luck + team preferential + experience + motivation + others

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