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LBCracer

Rule Clarification

Rule Clarification  

32 members have voted

  1. 1. Was telling Hamilton to wave Alonso by in beginning Q3, illegal team orders?

    • Yes
      2
    • No
      30


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My friend claims Mclaren telling Hamilton to let Alonso pass in Q3, is illegal team orders and Hamilton can't obey them because its illegal. I disagree, saying its their quali strategy that was set earlier in the weekend.

My question is: Is telling Hamilton to wave Alonso by, illegal team orders?

Is it illegal or not?

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I thought about this too, but Ron Dennis is too clever to be so blatantly in violation of the rules. His cheating would be much more subtle, we wouldn't even *understand* what was going on, being the simple primates that we are

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It's team orders for sure, but illegal? I dunno, I thought that was only during the race that they cared.

That was my understanding aswell rumplestrip.

If a team cannot tell their drivers what they want them to do in qualy, it's crazy. McLaren are the only team that dissect Q3 down to the millisecond by my observations, other teams do plan their Q3 strategy yes, but not to within a second like McLaren do.

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I don't know for sure but i would guess that it is not illegal. Teams decide on the order that their cars will hit the track before qualifying and obviously decide when to go out as things develop during the session. They can order their drivers to come in, they can order them to slow down/speed up to create gaps, so why not be able to order a position change? It has no bearing on the outcome of the race and if correctly executed, should have no bearing on the qualifying potential of the drivers. This in my view is the critical issue though because clearly this time it did have a bearing on their potential. Teams shouldn't leave everything to the last second because then things like this are bound to happen.

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Team orders have been restricted by a new rule, following the controversy over Ferrari's manipulation of race results in Austria.

The rules now say that "team orders which interfere with the race result will be prohibited".

In theory, this will prevent a repeat of this year's Austrian Grand Prix, when Ferrari ordered Rubens Barrichello to hand the win to team-mate Michael Schumacher.

However, it remains to be seen how easy it will be to police the rule - teams are likely to be more careful about concealing any intra-team tactics in the future.

source

So could it be that this team order rule apply only in race and not in quali?

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Ok, I officially thought I was going crazy, but no it's ok I have already responded to this question:

http://www.totalf1.com/forums/index.php?s=...st&p=209972

Regardless of the rules (even though it's been said it isn't true) Hamilton allowed Alonso through earlier on in the season, so he had already obeyed them once and so your friends argument holds no water.

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As pointed out the rule applies to orders which affect the outcome of the race. The qualifying strategy of the team is not under observations, if the team did something like Stop Lewis starting until 5 minutes to go so he qualifies heavy then that would be investigated as it could directly affect the outcome of the race as he qualify heavy down the grid.

I think its part of quali though a team only has one pit box and so there is only the oppurtunity to service only one car so a strategy does need to be used by other teams, Mclaren are organised, maybe a little too organised but they do nothing wrong. The team itself is just doing its best to maximise its chances to win or get the best result. None of this is against the rules, its a team strategy, and as proven after Monaco team strategy (keep Hamilton behind Alonso, minimise safety car problems, etc.) is not illegal.

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NO, no and no.

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Here's a new twist. With the Hungarororororoboring being what it is, a processional race, could manipulating the qualy session be construed as manipulating the race result? Hmmmm....

This whole issue is ridiculous anyhow. Looking at the rules, Hamilton disobeyed his team, but that breaks no rule. Alonso held another competitor up and that does break a rule. Alonso's penalty was justified, but McLaren's was not. Why is McLaren clean? Because the team raised the 'lollypop' as a signal for Alonso to go, but Alonso, and not the team, chose to stay in the box. It was at that point Alonso broke the rules and 'impeded' another competitor.

Next issue please.

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Here's a new twist. With the Hungarororororoboring being what it is, a processional race, could manipulating the qualy session be construed as manipulating the race result? Hmmmm....

This whole issue is ridiculous anyhow. Looking at the rules, Hamilton disobeyed his team, but that breaks no rule. Alonso held another competitor up and that does break a rule. Alonso's penalty was justified, but McLaren's was not. Why is McLaren clean? Because the team raised the 'lollypop' as a signal for Alonso to go, but Alonso, and not the team, chose to stay in the box. It was at that point Alonso broke the rules and 'impeded' another competitor.

Next issue please.

You are wrong of course.

Alonso colluded with his engineer in blocking Lewis - His engineer is part of the 'team' hence the 'team' were punished

Next issue please!

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Both are wrong, of course:

The explanation given by Alonso as to why at the expiration of the 20 second period he remained in his pit stop position for a further 10 seconds is not accepted. The Stewards find that he unnecessarily impeded another driver, Hamilton, and as a result he will be penalised by a loss of 5 grid positions.

The explanation given by the team as to why they kept Alonso stationary for 20 seconds after completion of his tire change and therefore delayed Hamilton's own pit stop is not accepted.

That is the Steward's decision transcript.

As easy as that.

Next issue, please.

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Pretty sad when all there is to talk about are stewards actions. The racing has got so predictible, team orders in the pits at qualifying are being considered race fixing!!!!!??????.

A couple of questions for you.

Did Mclaren place one car are on the track that impeded the racing line of the other.??? Was the Mclaren car in the pit box blocking the pit exit to prevent the other Mclaren car from making another lap???? IF the second Mclaren car wanted to make another run why did it pull into the pits???? Must have needed something from the team I suppose, why else would it be driven into the pit.

Seems to me I remember an F1 not long ago, that if this situation had developed the late driver into the pits would cruise through pit lane and pit next lap. I wonder what happened to that option??? He has time and fuel for another lap if he didn't pit, he could see the pit box was being used.

However following team orders in qualifying has now been deemed illegal???? I am so confused. I wonder how a team is supposed to time the pit stops and have the right tires ready for their respective drivers if they are no longer allowed control of the pit box??? Hmmmmm. If we let the drivers control when they pit I suggest what we saw in the last race will be quite common, as a pit stop is an orchastrated event, that must be planned. Any time there is a plan there are orders, and the person who fails to follow the plan, that then spins out of control, should not walk away scott free in my world.

A very interesting precedent has been delivered, that seems pretty ridiculous, to me and a large majority of the players in the sport..

Sad to see F1 reduced to this.

Next issue.

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No it's not illegal to have a team strategy in qualifying. The strategy was only in place because Ron (to his great credit imho) wanted to give both drivers as fair a chance as possible.

Yes YHR, it is sad indeed that this is the most exciting thing about F1 right now.

And I sooooo want to say:

Next issue please!

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No it's not illegal to have a team strategy in qualifying. The strategy was only in place because Ron (to his great credit imho) wanted to give both drivers as fair a chance as possible.

Yes YHR, it is sad indeed that this is the most exciting thing about F1 right now.

And I sooooo want to say:

Next issue please!

I know. That is the real kick in the a## over this. McClaren's strategy was in place to deliver a level playing field for both drivers over the entire season, and yet they are the team penalized because of some short sightedness and knee jerk reaction by the stewards.

Oh well, just image instead we could have been talking about the duel between the two Mclaren drivers and the race on the track.

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You are wrong of course.

Alonso colluded with his engineer in blocking Lewis - His engineer is part of the 'team' hence the 'team' were punished

Next issue please!

It's getting very boring to read your posts when you are determined to say 'You are wrong, of course' in response to every post of mine. For some reason you've taken it upon yourself to 'bring me down'. Pathetic.

Andres, the reality of what happened was not relayed to the stewards by McLaren. In the hearing, McLaren attempted to put on a 'team' front and say that everything happened as it was supposed to...all proper procedures and all that. That clearly was not the case. As we saw (I have seen the incident since my initial post saying I'd not seen it yet) Ron Dennis was extrememly angry at Alonso's engineer (wasn't it his physiotherapist or somesuch?) and was seen going up to him just after the 10 second mark (past the lolipop raising). This realtiy is in conflict with the official statement given to the stewards by team McLaren.

As I said in an earlier post, the team had no plan to keep Alonso an additional 10 seconds - if this were the case then the lolipop would not have raised. Despite the rather 2-dimensional way of thinking demonstrated by Fed up, a team member can act on his own and be held accountable for it without it being endorsed by the team. I suppose that when McLaren stood by Alonso's 'engineer' when questioned by the stewards, the team set itself up for a reprimand of the team, but that doesn't change the reality of the situation, or the culpability of the involved parties.

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It's getting very boring to read your posts when you are determined to say 'You are wrong, of course' in response to every post of mine. For some reason you've taken it upon yourself to 'bring me down'. Pathetic.

Andres, the reality of what happened was not relayed to the stewards by McLaren. In the hearing, McLaren attempted to put on a 'team' front and say that everything happened as it was supposed to...all proper procedures and all that. That clearly was not the case. As we saw (I have seen the incident since my initial post saying I'd not seen it yet) Ron Dennis was extrememly angry at Alonso's engineer (wasn't it his physiotherapist or somesuch?) and was seen going up to him just after the 10 second mark (past the lolipop raising). This realtiy is in conflict with the official statement given to the stewards by team McLaren.

As I said in an earlier post, the team had no plan to keep Alonso an additional 10 seconds - if this were the case then the lolipop would not have raised. Despite the rather 2-dimensional way of thinking demonstrated by Fed up, a team member can act on his own and be held accountable for it without it being endorsed by the team. I suppose that when McLaren stood by Alonso's 'engineer' when questioned by the stewards, the team set itself up for a reprimand of the team, but that doesn't change the reality of the situation, or the culpability of the involved parties.

No offense, but that statement is pure conjecture. No way to really know unless you were inside Ron's head. I agree McClaren put on a Brave face about the incident when talking to the Stewards, but the fact it even came to that is mind boggling.

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It's getting very boring to read your posts when you are determined to say 'You are wrong, of course' in response to every post of mine. For some reason you've taken it upon yourself to 'bring me down'. Pathetic.

Andres, the reality of what happened was not relayed to the stewards by McLaren. In the hearing, McLaren attempted to put on a 'team' front and say that everything happened as it was supposed to...all proper procedures and all that. That clearly was not the case. As we saw (I have seen the incident since my initial post saying I'd not seen it yet) Ron Dennis was extrememly angry at Alonso's engineer (wasn't it his physiotherapist or somesuch?) and was seen going up to him just after the 10 second mark (past the lolipop raising). This realtiy is in conflict with the official statement given to the stewards by team McLaren.

As I said in an earlier post, the team had no plan to keep Alonso an additional 10 seconds - if this were the case then the lolipop would not have raised. Despite the rather 2-dimensional way of thinking demonstrated by Fed up, a team member can act on his own and be held accountable for it without it being endorsed by the team. I suppose that when McLaren stood by Alonso's 'engineer' when questioned by the stewards, the team set itself up for a reprimand of the team, but that doesn't change the reality of the situation, or the culpability of the involved parties.

You could be right, but who cares, it's yesterday's news now.

Next topic!

-_-

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ok.if you all insist we'll start with the next issue: is Alonso a whiner and is Raikkonen a car breaker?

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