la force supreme des mclaren

Mclaren Fined $100million.........

494 posts in this topic

Ok...errrm...I think Enzo Ferrari should be postumously put in jail, and all the points Ferrari scored in its whole history should be erased. Why? Lemme think..because if it wasn't for Enzo starting Ferrari, none of this would have happened.

Eternal damnation for him! And a daikiri with those little funny umbrellas, for me.

Ah, the mystery of the funny little umbrellas. Daiquiri? Cointreau? You worry me Andres. I blame Murray.

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In short, the penalties do not fit the crime.

I hope Nigel Stepney would reveal all the ugly tactics used by Ferrari in due course. :P

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I haven't had a chance to comment and with all the material now out it provides the resolve needed toward this issue. My following of formula one has taken place over some years, but its been the last several where I have taken a much closer interest toward the sport, so this was quite an interesting period for me as a fan and I'm sure it will continue (unfortunately). With that said it doesn't deter me away from the sport, I still love it and I look forward to my favorite weekend as a viewer.

To comment on the issue as I haven't had a chance, the case put forth by Ferrari to determine the use of information served its intention and for me justice has rightly taken place. To the extent of which it had however, was quite a shock. In my eyes and after reading all the information I would've felt that the docking of all constructor points would've been enough, but it wasn't to be and I'm sure we haven't heard the end of this scenario. Initially I was surprised to have seen the drivers maintain there status in the championship, but with acknowledgment that they adhered to the requirements set by the FIA they therefore maintained there status in the championship. I won't continue, as mentioned all the information has been put forward, but I will leave on this. It shouldn't be forgotten how they received these documents, however in the end justice was served.

Overall this has been an interesting experience for myself as a fan.

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Well after reading that it is sufficient to say that Mclaren were not entirely honest about how much info they had and who knew about it.

It is difficult to believe that not many people knew about the info considering how indepth some of the emails are. They were specific about information and that they wanted to test it to see if it would work. Like they said - a test driver would not be able to make some of these decisions on his own without someone in the management knowing about it :eusa_think:

Whether they did use/test it or not is immaterial they fact is they wanted to do so is the evidence that is damning....

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Well after reading that it is sufficient to say that Mclaren were not entirely honest about how much info they had and who knew about it.

It is difficult to believe that not many people knew about the info considering how indepth some of the emails are. They were specific about information and that they wanted to test it to see if it would work. Like they said - a test driver would not be able to make some of these decisions on his own without someone in the management knowing about it :eusa_think:

Whether they did use/test it or not is immaterial they fact is they wanted to do so is the evidence that is damning....

Indeed

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Ah, the mystery of the funny little umbrellas. Daiquiri? Cointreau? You worry me Andres. I blame Murray.

I wish they would put those umbrellas in a good glass of scotch but they don't.

Of course, because of the FIA, and Todt, and Alonso and Nicolas Kiesa (the role of Kiesa in this affair was seriously underestimated).

I blame Murray, too. Just because.

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Hmm, let's make a bet, who bets that Alonso's car will have issues this weekend?

:D

:prayhands:

It begs the question why Mclaren haven't suspended both Nando & Pedro - If Coughlan is suspended why not Nando & Pedro.

This is a mess and it will leave a very sour taste in the mouth if Alonso were to win the WDC. He complains that Lewis copies his set up, but collude's with Pedro to copy Ferrari's set up - What a hypocrite!

<_<

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:prayhands:

It begs the question why Mclaren haven't suspended both Nando & Pedro - If Coughlan is suspended why not Nando & Pedro.

This is a mess and it will leave a very sour taste in the mouth if Alonso were to win the WDC. He complains that Lewis copies his set up, but collude's with Pedro to copy Ferrari's set up - What a hypocrite!

<_<

Who knows this could still happen or mclaren will make Nando very uncomfortable and possible something might "happen" to him/his car during quali and/ the race......

-_-

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Unbelievable! The Spanish Inquisition strikes again!

Okay,forget about that one............

It's true that engineering curiosity and schoolboy curiosity killed the cat and in this case Mclaren's wcc for 2007.

End of story.

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Hmm. I've read the FIA document now, and it does indeed appear to be Coughlan, Pedro and Fernando up to their necks in it. Lewis? We'll never know the answer to that one, but I tend to believe that he was not privy to the info. He stopped Pedro getting a race seat..........

As for Uncle Ron, I feel sorry for the bloke. He's been shafted by his own employees. And I don't entirely agree with the WMSC in some of their conclusions. Some of the wording smacks of double standards (Toyota, Midland/Spyker), but the verdict is fair.

But I'm sure there's more to come.

Yeah I feel sorry for Ron too. Throughout the year he has bent over backwards to give the drivers a fair chance to race each other to the detriment of the team, as they both inevitably take the proverbial mile. Now several team members turn out to be cheating behind his back. I actually respect Ron a lot more now than at the start of the year.

I read the FIA report kindy provided by Kay (and thanks Fed Up too for the 5-Live podcast) but what I wonder is how PDLR and FA managed to get away without providing these details before. Surely the FIA asked them in June whether they had access to any Ferrari info before accepting McLaren's assertion that no performance advantage was obtained?

Ah, the mystery of the funny little umbrellas. Daiquiri? Cointreau? You worry me Andres. I blame Murray.
I blame Murray, too. Just because.

:lol: I get that a lot! Normally from girls, but.... :P

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<h3 class="fessystemerrorh3">Pitpass</h3> PHP/Database Error encountered - Unable to generate page ERROR - No article id value passed to script

And choose your own smileys next time :nono1: !You copied my post's structure :eusa_think:

Old habits die hard heh... :clap3:

Edited by tifosi too!

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Yeah I feel sorry for Ron too. Throughout the year he has bent over backwards to give the drivers a fair chance to race each other to the detriment of the team, as they both inevitably take the proverbial mile. Now several team members turn out to be cheating behind his back. I actually respect Ron a lot more now than at the start of the year.

I read the FIA report kindy provided by Kay (and thanks Fed Up too for the 5-Live podcast) but what I wonder is how PDLR and FA managed to get away without providing these details before. Surely the FIA asked them in June whether they had access to any Ferrari info before accepting McLaren's assertion that no performance advantage was obtained?

:lol: I get that a lot! Normally from girls, but.... :P

Well i guess at that stage the "team" still didnt think/know what other incriminating evidence there was. So it was better to just deny it based on what evidence it appeared they have. However this time around the drivers were given an immunity IF they provided the emails detailing knowledge of the documents :eusa_think:

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If someone has forwarded this question I apologize for its upbringing. If you were in the position of those involved in McLaren would you not have considered the use of these documents?

Consider for one minute as I assume you are humane the above question.

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If someone has forwarded this question I apologize for its upbringing. If you were in the position of those involved in McLaren would you not have considered the use of these documents?

Consider for one minute as I assume you are humane the above question.

FOR SURE!!! But I would also have considered the legal consequences...

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First thing's first.

UrKo, The FIA took away Williams and Benetton's Constructor's points from Brazil 1995 because the fuel didn't match the sample provided to the FIA at the start of the weekend. The chemical footprint wasn't identical. The drivers had their points reinstated because the FIA felt that the drivers couldn't have done anything about it.

FUSchumi, you do realize what a team could do with 780 pages of documents, do you? Did you not see the emails?

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Don't even waste your breath my friend... it's just useless with some posters

That is so true :thbup: !!

But I don't mind really!

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>

^ If true Alonso's the hottest driver on the market now.

He knows both the secrets of McLaren/MP4-22 and Ferrari/F2007.

Very Funny... Thanks DOF, a light moment in an otherwise dark thread....

:rofl::lol:

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If someone has forwarded this question I apologize for its upbringing. If you were in the position of those involved in McLaren would you not have considered the use of these documents?

Consider for one minute as I assume you are humane the above question.

Definatly... As i have said earlier as well if i had infomation of my competitor i would use it... but make sure to keep it very confidential...

Thanks Kay and Fed Up for the document and the podcast...

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First thing's first.

UrKo, The FIA took away Williams and Benetton's Constructor's points from Brazil 1995 because the fuel didn't match the sample provided to the FIA at the start of the weekend. The chemical footprint wasn't identical. The drivers had their points reinstated because the FIA felt that the drivers couldn't have done anything about it.

ok...now i remember...thanks :thbup:

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Penalty aside you have to question the stupidity of such discussions over e-mail, especially when you do not delete them.

I'd imagine Lewis had similar data but that he wasn't stupid enough to be throwing e-mails around or did not have the context to realise where the data was from. (Yes that is speculation)

PDLR not only makes it clear that he has Ferrari data, but that he knows full well how it was obtained and that it was reliable. To know data is reliable you must have used it at some time and so any argument Mclaren could come back with is gone.

I'm neither an Alonso or a Lewis fan, but I believe that MC / PDLR with their connection to one another are mainly to fault for this. Alonso was stupid enough to get involved clearly.

And I thought I lacked common sense. More to follow.

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This is a mess and it will leave a very sour taste in the mouth if Alonso were to win the WDC. He complains that Lewis copies his set up, but collude's with Pedro to copy Ferrari's set up - What a hypocrite!

:roll::roll::yahoo::injured::lmavfa::loljump::lolroll::meh: ->Tito Ron

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Thanks Kay, that's pretty damning stuff, McLaren deserves the punishment..................nuff said..

For doing what, exactly? We know that Pedro and Alonso tried some Ferrari weight distribution settings in the simulator but they were not able to use them in a race. How was Ferrari hurt by this? How was 'competition' and 'motor sports' hurt by this. You need to demonstrate that when citing a breach of 151c. If I have in my possession a drawing from Russ, and try to copy it to sell it later as my own but decide not to, how is Russ hurt by this? He's not and neither is Ferrari. You can't convict on intent.

Hmm. I've read the FIA document now, and it does indeed appear to be Coughlan, Pedro and Fernando up to their necks in it. Lewis? We'll never know the answer to that one, but I tend to believe that he was not privy to the info. He stopped Pedro getting a race seat..........

As for Uncle Ron, I feel sorry for the bloke. He's been shafted by his own employees. And I don't entirely agree with the WMSC in some of their conclusions. Some of the wording smacks of double standards (Toyota, Midland/Spyker), but the verdict is fair.

But I'm sure there's more to come.

In light of Toyota employees actually using Ferrari data in a competition and getting no punishment as a team for it, and McLaren taking full punishment as a team for not using Ferrari data obtained by one employee, I wonder at your defiinition of 'fair'.

Now to get Mike to agree.

Not likely -_- .

Here's a telling line from the FIA report:

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Its more like " I know this man has stolen money, I'm just not sure how much, so make him give me some arbitrary amount."

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Its more like " I know this man has stolen money, I'm just not sure how much, so make him give me some arbitrary amount."

It isn't like that at all. Money stolen has an impact on the victim. Ferrari designs and set-up information that never made it to the track on a McLaren didn't harm Ferrari at all.

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For doing what, exactly? We know that Pedro and Alonso tried some Ferrari weight distribution settings in the simulator but they were not able to use them in a race. How was Ferrari hurt by this? How was 'competition' and 'motor sports' hurt by this. You need to demonstrate that when citing a breach of 151c. If I have in my possession a drawing from Russ, and try to copy it to sell it later as my own but decide not to, how is Russ hurt by this? He's not and neither is Ferrari. You can't convict on intent.

In light of Toyota employees actually using Ferrari data in a competition and getting no punishment as a team for it, and McLaren taking full punishment as a team for not using Ferrari data obtained by one employee, I wonder at your defiinition of 'fair'.

Not likely -_- .

Here's a telling line from the FIA report:

So the FIA are now convicting, and levelling business-destroying fines, to an entity that the FIA thinks might have obtained a sporting advantage but that advantage cannot be quantified in concrete terms?? "Your honor, I believe that this person might have committed a crime, but I have no concrete proof. I ask for a conviction." The judge then responds, "That is a very strong feeling you have, son, I'll grant that conviction".

Well I agree, I still don't know what Mclaren, as a team, did wrong. The actions of individuals clearly acting of their own interests caused this whole affair, it was not some Mclaren meeting where they decided to steal or spy some Ferrari info. I don't understand how they can use any information gained to improve performance anyway - the two cars are so obviously different, how you can base your setup or development on a completely different car, I'll never know. It just doesn't make sense, even if Mclaren discuss Ferrari design secrets, and that leads to some kind of brilliant innovation that they can somehow adjust to their car, how can you punish that? Surely that kind of copying/inspiration happens whenever key team members change teams. For me, the decision stinks and the punishment is excessive - the fine should not exist.

I mean Ok sure, dock/remove constructor's points because certain Mclaren staff had some access to Ferrari secrets, but why bother with the fine? Did they use those secrets to gain a competitive advantage? I am not convinced. Perhaps Ferrari should of spent more time building a more reliable car - isn't it the fundemental design of the Ferrari which meant that it was less competitive on some tracks? Whereas Mclaren's general design (shorter wheelbase) is more suited to most tracks.

And so what they knew when Kimi pits at Australia - don't they spend hours speculating/calculating this anyway - additionally, this didn't exactly hurt Ferrari.

Ferrari are behind due to poor reliability, more driver errors, longer wheelbase, poor strategy (no Ross Brawn), and at some point in the season they were reported to have taken a wrong turn in the development process - I think it was Spain?

Irrelevant of Mclaren, Ferrari are behind of their own accord.

Maybe next year Mclaren would of atempted to put Ferrari data to more use, but that's not what they've been punished for.

Edited by rainmaster

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