la force supreme des mclaren

Mclaren Fined $100million.........

494 posts in this topic

For doing what, exactly? We know that Pedro and Alonso tried some Ferrari weight distribution settings in the simulator but they were not able to use them in a race. How was Ferrari hurt by this? How was 'competition' and 'motor sports' hurt by this. You need to demonstrate that when citing a breach of 151c. If I have in my possession a drawing from Russ, and try to copy it to sell it later as my own but decide not to, how is Russ hurt by this? He's not and neither is Ferrari. You can't convict on intent.

In light of Toyota employees actually using Ferrari data in a competition and getting no punishment as a team for it, and McLaren taking full punishment as a team for not using Ferrari data obtained by one employee, I wonder at your defiinition of 'fair'.

Not likely -_- .

Here's a telling line from the FIA report:

So the FIA are now convicting, and levelling business-destroying fines, to an entity that the FIA thinks might have obtained a sporting advantage but that advantage cannot be quantified in concrete terms?? "Your honor, I believe that this person might have committed a crime, but I have no concrete proof. I ask for a conviction." The judge then responds, "That is a very strong feeling you have, son, I'll grant that conviction".

The drawings themselves are intellectual property and an asset themselves. To possess that knowledge which was created with hard work and use it is of the interest of a court of law and not the FIA to start with.So the your argument is what does the FIA care if Mclaren had those documents.Again you base that argument on the little things you picked up from various websites and not on the evidence FIA had in order to make that decision.If I have to use an example is like going to a court after a trial has ended and yell at the judge about finding the man guilty, because your neighbour told you he was innocent.Nobody here knows all the facts/evidence FIA had so we shouldn't be so sure FIA made a mistake.

If we accept your theory that all they did was to put some data on the simulator (actually some considerable work is needed by the team to do that, it's no Playstation we are talking about), have you ever considered how helpful was it to carry out some test on already complete and tested setups?Just think that they knew what that car was capable of on track, as well they saved a lot of time trying out solutions for the design, suspension, tire behaviour etc. If they concluded the solution Ferrari had, which could have been simplistic and used by half the grid, was more effective, then their work is done and they know they don't need to try harder because thats all Ferrari had and they didn't have to worry about any suprises and they could go one-better if they already knew all the cards the opponent has. For instance if you know your neighbour has a car similar to yours and his is more powerful and you get a list with all the changes he has done, wouldn't be easier for you to make yours go faster than it is or even faster than his?The ideas they got might not even be original, just tried solutions for given problems, therefore the actual incorporation of these elements on the Mclaren car, couldn't be pointed out. The possibilities they had with these info and the technology they have that allows them to exploit it, leaves little to the imagination. Even the cleaning lady in the Paragon might had seen those documents!!

If I 'm not mistaken the Toyota situation was different. To start with the only procedure I recall(not enough time to look for it) was in a court of law, not the FIA and they were jailed. The actual differences that lead to different punishments (if the FIA was even involved in the Toyota case), belong the "hard core" of the evidence, which we 'll probably never know.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Anyway Ron Dennis thought the emails were important new evidence and so di the FIA...

From ITV-F1.com

http://www.totalf1.com/view-article.php?newsid=226793

McLaren boss Ron Dennis has revealed that he was the source of the new evidence that prompted the FIA to revisit the spying case.

The governing body reconvened the World Motor Sport Council after additional evidence came to light, the core of which was an exchange of emails between McLaren test driver Pedro de la Rosa and world champion Fernando Alonso.

As a result, McLaren was thrown out of the 2007 constructors' championship and hit with a record fine.

Dennis said at Spa on Friday that he approached the FIA as soon as he became aware of the existence of the emails.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It isn't like that at all. Money stolen has an impact on the victim. Ferrari designs and set-up information that never made it to the track on a McLaren didn't harm Ferrari at all.

I was just saying that they did commit a "crime" no doubt about it. Its the impact that the act has had on the cars and the season that is in question.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The drawings themselves are intellectual property and an asset themselves. To possess that knowledge which was created with hard work and use it is of the interest of a court of law and not the FIA to start with.

Did they use it in competition that harmed Ferrari? McLaren have proven that they did not. Set-up data that was discussed between Alonso and Pedro was gained from Coughlan's contact with Stepney. As for possessing it, it was found in the private residence of a McLaren employee. That is different from being found at McLaren HQ. Coughlan is guilty, not McLaren of possessing Ferrari data.

So the your argument is what does the FIA care if Mclaren had those documents..

A crime is a crime only if the person breaks an established rule. Possessing the Ferrari documents may well be a criminal offense but the FIA is not a court of law so that has no bearing on this situation or the FIA's ruling. Possessing another team's data is not a breach of the International Sporting Code, the Formula One Technical Regulations, or the Formula One Sporting Regulations. Using that data in competition is, but possessing is not. McLaren were judged to be in breach of a rule that is vague to say the very least.

If we accept your theory that all they did was to put some data on the simulator (actually some considerable work is needed by the team to do that, it's no Playstation we are talking about), have you ever considered how helpful was it to carry out some test on already complete and tested setups?

Please read the FIA documentation. It's only 14 pages. In that documentation, one of the loose proofs used by the FIA to convict McLaren was Pedro saying they used Ferrari set-up data in the simulator but didn't use it on the cars because it didn't work with the '07 chassis. There is no difference between this and last year's Renault front wing. After the TMD saga ended, Renault developed a unique front wing which was copied by other teams.

Just think that they knew what that car was capable of on track, as well they saved a lot of time trying out solutions for the design, suspension, tire behaviour etc. If they concluded the solution Ferrari had, which could have been simplistic and used by half the grid, was more effective, then their work is done and they know they don't need to try harder because thats all Ferrari had and they didn't have to worry about any suprises and they could go one-better if they already knew all the cards the opponent has.

Irrelevant. The FIA needed to prove that McLaren used Ferrari data in competition in order to make the case that McLaren had breached a regulation. The FIA couldn't prove this and admitted as much.

therefore the actual incorporation of these elements on the Mclaren car, couldn't be pointed out.

Exactly. By your own words, McLaren have breached no regulation.

If I 'm not mistaken the Toyota situation was different. To start with the only procedure I recall(not enough time to look for it) was in a court of law, not the FIA and they were jailed. The actual differences that lead to different punishments (if the FIA was even involved in the Toyota case), belong the "hard core" of the evidence, which we 'll probably never know.

Not quite. Toyota used Ferrari-owned software during races and that is a breach of the Formula One Technical regulations stating that a team may not use any part designed by, or property of, a rival team. Two men were prosecuted for this but Toyota F1 suffered no consequences from the FIA.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I will go further on my thoughts here. Pedro and Alonso are two drivers I rate very highly. I enjoy watching them drive and appreciate the level of expertise they bring to our sport. Knowing that they both attempted to use data they knew came directly from a current Ferrari employee during an ongoing season shows a lack of sportsmanship I find disgusting. Were I Ron Dennis, I would put both drivers on 'Gardening Leave' immediately for the duration of their contracts and put Paffett in Alonso's car for the remainder of the season and possibly next season as well. There must be a point where you stand up for sportsmanship, irregardless of how it may hurt your team. Ron has the courage and morals to do this, but the question is: will he?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mike, I said the verdict was fair. Not the penalty. The stupidity of alonso and de la rosa made it so.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I will go further on my thoughts here. Pedro and Alonso are two drivers I rate very highly. I enjoy watching them drive and appreciate the level of expertise they bring to our sport. Knowing that they both attempted to use data they knew came directly from a current Ferrari employee during an ongoing season shows a lack of sportsmanship I find disgusting. Were I Ron Dennis, I would put both drivers on 'Gardening Leave' immediately for the duration of their contracts and put Paffett in Alonso's car for the remainder of the season and possibly next season as well. There must be a point where you stand up for sportsmanship, irregardless of how it may hurt your team. Ron has the courage and morals to do this, but the question is: will he?

You are RIGHT of course.

Very well said and I agree 100%

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I will go further on my thoughts here. Pedro and Alonso are two drivers I rate very highly. I enjoy watching them drive and appreciate the level of expertise they bring to our sport. Knowing that they both attempted to use data they knew came directly from a current Ferrari employee during an ongoing season shows a lack of sportsmanship I find disgusting. Were I Ron Dennis, I would put both drivers on 'Gardening Leave' immediately for the duration of their contracts and put Paffett in Alonso's car for the remainder of the season and possibly next season as well. There must be a point where you stand up for sportsmanship, irregardless of how it may hurt your team. Ron has the courage and morals to do this, but the question is: will he?

In an ideal world i would absolutely agree with you but the point is that this is not an ideal world and i don't believe in fairy tales... I'm not saying i applause what FA and PDR have done but this is a puzzle and i'm missing a lot of pieces, we will probably never know the whole truth. Industrial spionage exists not only in F1, the problem for McLaren is that it's been proved that they've done it but i have little doubt ANY team would have done the same.

Thinking this is something that have been done just by 3 or 4 people within the team is absolutelly ludicrous. Sure that if things would be the way you're saying both PDR and FA would have been fired, the fact they have been not just indicates me that, as i said, there's a lot of things we don't know. Moreover... how would you explain that after this (i'm sure Montezemollo knew it last weekend) Ferrari's president was praising FA? (just a few days ago) how would you explain that for the very first time FA is saying that he's being fairly treated for McLaren? This so weird mate that i can believe it. :eusa_think:

Weird, weird, weird...

Edited by kiko01

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I will go further on my thoughts here. Pedro and Alonso are two drivers I rate very highly. I enjoy watching them drive and appreciate the level of expertise they bring to our sport. Knowing that they both attempted to use data they knew came directly from a current Ferrari employee during an ongoing season shows a lack of sportsmanship I find disgusting. Were I Ron Dennis, I would put both drivers on 'Gardening Leave' immediately for the duration of their contracts and put Paffett in Alonso's car for the remainder of the season and possibly next season as well. There must be a point where you stand up for sportsmanship, irregardless of how it may hurt your team. Ron has the courage and morals to do this, but the question is: will he?

I was staying out from all this because, seriously, I've never read so much whining and drivel in my whole life. But your comments, comming from a guy I respect as if he was almost human ( ;) ) are worthy the effort.

1) My respect for both PDLR and FA have taken a hit. FA being more an idiot than a b#####d, but guilty as charged, anyways.

2) My respect for LH has not risen a single bit, because I find it impossible for him not to know any of this. The fact that no e-mails from him have emerged means nothing.

3) The mails themselves prove how McLaren benefited from Stepney. FIA absolved McLaren about the photocopies because they couldn't prove they gained any advantage. The mails show that Stepney's relationship with Coughlan benefited McLaren with more info besides the photocopies. McLaren is still guilty.

4) RD is either the master b#####d a

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I was staying out from all this because, seriously, I've never read so much whining and drivel in my whole life. But your comments, comming from a guy I respect as if he was almost human ( ;) ) are worthy the effort.

1) My respect for both PDLR and FA have taken a hit. FA being more an idiot than a b#####d, but guilty as charged, anyways.

2) My respect for LH has not risen a single bit, because I find it impossible for him not to know any of this. The fact that no e-mails from him have emerged means nothing.

3) The mails themselves prove how McLaren benefited from Stepney. FIA absolved McLaren about the photocopies because they couldn't prove they gained any advantage. The mails show that Stepney's relationship with Coughlan benefited McLaren with more info besides the photocopies. McLaren is still guilty.

4) RD is either the master b#####d a

Edited by kiko01

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I guess I'll take that as a compliment! :lol:

Are we argentinians that bad?

You should :rolleyes:

No, no way... Argentinians have the power to express themselves in an excellent way. Every single post from you is a proof of it

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Did they use it in competition that harmed Ferrari? McLaren have proven that they did not. Set-up data that was discussed between Alonso and Pedro was gained from Coughlan's contact with Stepney. As for possessing it, it was found in the private residence of a McLaren employee. That is different from being found at McLaren HQ. Coughlan is guilty, not McLaren of possessing Ferrari data.

Exactly how are you so sure of this??The data were processed in the Mclaren HQ obviously since they simulated them on the simulator didn't they?

A crime is a crime only if the person breaks an established rule. Possessing the Ferrari documents may well be a criminal offense but the FIA is not a court of law so that has no bearing on this situation or the FIA's ruling. Possessing another team's data is not a breach of the International Sporting Code, the Formula One Technical Regulations, or the Formula One Sporting Regulations. Using that data in competition is, but possessing is not. McLaren were judged to be in breach of a rule that is vague to say the very least.

A crime doesn't need positive actions to take place.It takes place by omission or negligence as well...I don't know if intent is out of the question in this case.

Please read the FIA documentation. It's only 14 pages. In that documentation, one of the loose proofs used by the FIA to convict McLaren was Pedro saying they used Ferrari set-up data in the simulator but didn't use it on the cars because it didn't work with the '07 chassis. There is no difference between this and last year's Renault front wing. After the TMD saga ended, Renault developed a unique front wing which was copied by other teams.

That's not what the quoted e-mails sayso I would ask you to read it again.

The team also prepares the simulator. Please read posts carefully.

"McLaren's Chief Engineer Mr. Lowe gave clear evidence that decisions relating to simulator testing would normally involve a number of engineering and other staff (as would running the tests themselves). It seems highly unlikely that decisions about what would be run in the simulator would by taken by a test driver on his own."

Irrelevant. The FIA needed to prove that McLaren used Ferrari data in competition in order to make the case that McLaren had breached a regulation. The FIA couldn't prove this and admitted as much.

Irrelevant?Pointing their research to the right direction didn't give them an advantage on the track??You honestly believe that??

Exactly. By your own words, McLaren have breached no regulation.

You know its not right to separate peoples sentences just to make it look like they agree with you right?

What I said was:

"The ideas they got might not even be original, just tried solutions for given problems, therefore the actual incorporation of these elements on the Mclaren car, couldn't be pointed out"

Hardly what you quoted!!

Not quite. Toyota used Ferrari-owned software during races and that is a breach of the Formula One Technical regulations stating that a team may not use any part designed by, or property of, a rival team. Two men were prosecuted for this but Toyota F1 suffered no consequences from the FIA.

Again I 'll ask you to read my original post about the lack of info we have of the evidence of both cases and thats exactly why don't know how different or similar they are. Besides if there are serious violation s that take place regularly, the FIA should increase the fines and penalty's to make sure law and order are preserved.

Edited by tifosi too!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mike, I said the verdict was fair. Not the penalty. The stupidity of alonso and de la rosa made it so.

What part of the Decision released today makes you say the verdict was 'fair'? I find many contradictory statements by the WMSC in that document and many areas where they state, essentially, that they don't need to prove anything to make a decision. On the contrary, they need to prove article 151c that I quoted and dissected earlier in this thread. If they proved that and I missed it, please cite me the article number in the Decision.

It's clear from the e-mail conversations presented in the Decision that Alonso and Pedro were discussing with Coughlan aspects of the Ferrari that Coughlan got from Stepney. That was proven beyond any doubt. Those three employees of McLaren were guilty of breaching article 151c of the International Sporting Code. The WMSC failed to prove that any other McLaren employee was involved in this. The WMSC covered their lack of proof by saying that they didn't need to prove it. They went on to say that they simply didn't believe that those three were the only ones at McLaren who were involved. They further stated that because of that belief, they could assume McLaren as a whole were involved and that the verdict was justified. It's a case of compounding suppositions by the WMSC without proof.

If I didn't have to prove anything, and just went by what I 'felt' at the time, I could clear alot of the courts' backlog here in California in a few days....

Nothing of this Decision was 'fair'. The culprits (Pedro, Alonso and Coughlan) get off free and McLaren are crucified.

One other note here concerning drivers. It was stated in article 8.10 that 'it seems unlikely' that a driver would bear the whole responsibility for testing the information gained from Stepney and Coughlan. Bullocks. It takes nothing for a test driver to get his test team together and say 'I would like to try out such and such in the simulators today' without revealing where the ideas came from. Pedro is a highly intelligent and valued tester...I doubt that the test team would be surprised at his suggestions in trying a different weight distribution. It further states in another e-mail that Pedro went and talked to a Bridgestone engineer about the effects of using Ferrari's 'gas' to cool McLaren's tyres. Seems to me that if the testing team were in on this, they would send someone other than Pedro to talk to Bridgestone. By the standards of 'proof' laid out by the WMSC's Decision, this should be enough to prove that Pedro didn't relay any information about Ferrari to the test team, right?

Also, the lack of evidence linking Hamilton to this would also indicate that the information's source was kept secret between Pedro, Alonso and Coughlan. At the time of the emails, Alonso hadn't had a falling out with Hamilton or even an indication the rookie would be a challenge. It's logical to assume Alonso would bring Hamilton in on this, but there was no proof that he was in on it. The bad part about this revelation is that it would appear Hamilton hasn't been deeply involved in the testing of the McLaren's set-up. It confirms my belief that the bulk of set-up and testing was done by Alonso and Pedro.

I'm not a supporter of any team in F1, but this is injustice, pure and simple.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I will go further on my thoughts here. Pedro and Alonso are two drivers I rate very highly. I enjoy watching them drive and appreciate the level of expertise they bring to our sport. Knowing that they both attempted to use data they knew came directly from a current Ferrari employee during an ongoing season shows a lack of sportsmanship I find disgusting. Were I Ron Dennis, I would put both drivers on 'Gardening Leave' immediately for the duration of their contracts and put Paffett in Alonso's car for the remainder of the season and possibly next season as well. There must be a point where you stand up for sportsmanship, irregardless of how it may hurt your team. Ron has the courage and morals to do this, but the question is: will he?

I agree with most of what you have said on this subject. How can Toyota get away scott free using stolen software in competition and get nothing for punishment, and yet McLaren gets dinged for knowing but not using Ferrari info.

I am not so willing to condemn the drivers. These guys are constantly experimenting with set-ups, and sharing info with others in the team. So what they went in the simulator and tried some Ferrari set-ups. Engineers are always giving them new things to try. It is second nature to them. Honestly they probably didn't think there was a whole bunch wrong with doing it. They probably tried it and said, well that might work with the Ferrari, but it doesn't do too much for the Mclaren. I am not so sure if I would know using Ferrari set-ups in a McLaren simulator is illegal. I`d be curious though.

The F1A has just shown their incompetence and magnified their stupidity with a 100 million fine for the innocent and I will admit if there was anyone who should be told they should have none better is Alonso, and he gets way with nothing.

For the first time I am actually believing some of the crap I have read about the F1A and Ferrari. Too many things get decided in this council that always improve Ferrari`s chances of winning. I think it is beginning to stink.

PS

What is the point of watching this gong show anymore. Ferrari has won the WCC , and the WDC has been turned into a joke. Doubt I`ll be getting up early any more this year!!!!!

Edited by YHR

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I am not so willing to condemn the drivers. These guys are constantly experimenting with set-ups, and sharing info with others in the team. So what they went in the simulator and tried some Ferrari set-ups. Engineers are always giving them new things to try. It is second nature to them. Honestly they probably didn't think there was a whole bunch wrong with doing it. They probably tried it and said, well that might work with the Ferrari, but it doesn't do too much for the Mclaren. I am not so sure if I would know using Ferrari set-ups in a McLaren simulator is illegal. I`d be curious though.

But it is the drivers in tandem with a disaffected employee that have caused the whole fiasco.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Autumnpuma was the first to write something that makes sense since the WMSC publicized the 'evidence'...

What 'evidence'? I ask...

This is even more ridiculous than I initially thought!...

Plain and simple there are NO evidence!... WMSC's decision was totally based on assumptions!

Read carefully the WMSC's announcement!

1.

There are no less than 9 instances of the phrase 'it seems unlikely'!!! What? Seems unlikely? You can't condemn anyone just because something 'seems unlikely' to you!!! It might as well be more 'likely' than you'll ever think! 'It seems unlikely' means 'I can't believe that', nut it's not proof in any way! 'It seems unlikely' meens I am making an assumption! What 'seems ulikely' to you might 'seem' very true to me and vice versa. Do you believe in God? Well, to me it seems unlikely that such a thing exists... It also seems very ulikely to me that M. Shoemaker got all those championships fairly... But do I have any proof? It also seems very unlikely to me that FIA and WMSC are not favouring Ferrari (I could put forward lots of indications, but do I have any proof?)...

2.

I am not a lawyer, but as far as I know e-mails and phone calls do not consist proof in any civil court. What if I send an e-mail to Autumnpuma stating 'thank you for fixing Ayrton Senna's accident'? Is that a proof that Autumnpuma really did so? Get serious! Of course there was e-mail exchange between Alonso, De La Rosa and Coughlan but it seems very unlikely that the information exchanged really helped McLaren and hurt Ferrari...

3.

McLaren sacked Coughlan the very same day Ferrari did the same to Stepney, but even before that, when the team realized there was a 'vast' exchange of e-mails between the two, they set-up a firewall to stop this kind of action. So, they could set-up a firewall to their servers but they couldn't just delete those incriminating e-mails for 7 months now! Really? Even when they realized how serious the situation was (months ago) they thought they might as well just keep all those information on their servers. Or maybe they couldn't find that 'Delete' button on the keyboard! Oh, yes! That seems very likely! The same applies for the aforementioned drivers. Instead of deleting those messages from their PCs, they just ignored them (I repeat, even when the situation got really bad)!... If I was in their shoes I would have formatted my hard disc long ago... Does this seem likely to you? Thought it did...

4.

Right from the start, Ron invited both the FIA and Ferrari to examine their car. And what did they find? Absolutely nothing! Nada! No part of Ferrari technology was applied to the car whatsoever! Or maybe the McLaren technicians had covered all those Ferrari-intellectual-property parts so well, that even Ferrari could not recognize them! Ah, that seems more likely!...

5.

And now let's get to the 'knowing' point. Using the same reasoning that someone's knowledge might influence his work ("4.15 In sum, the new information on the number and timing of the contacts between Coughlan and Stepney inevitably had an impact on the WMSC's appreciation of the nature of the contacts between Coughlan and Stepney, on its appreciation of the emails between the drivers and on the likelihood of Ferrari confidential information received by Coughlan having an influence on his work with McLaren."), I am asking a simple question: do you think Kimi's years with McLaren can influence his work at Ferrari? Do you think he might pass some information to the team? To put it in other words, does it seem likely to you? No?... Well, it seems very likely to me! So, is this also spying? Should they get any penalties, because, I repeat, it seems very likely! Or you might argue that Coughlan knew a lot more from his contacts with Stepney, than Kimi ever learned in all his McLaren years...

6.

I could go on forever but there is no point... I will resume my thoughts stating that from all the 'evidence' I can only blame 4 people and none of them is punished! None! Instead, the WMSC decided to punish a team in such a way that only one other team is clearly favoured! Finally, I tend to believe that there was only one really incriminating e-mail, which is referred twice in WMSC's statement (so to make an impact), which still however doesn't prove (as Autumnpuma stated) that there was any information used which favoured McLaren and hurt Ferrari...

Again, just assumptions and a black day for the sport... Shame on anyone who's to blame (including McLaren drivers)...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What part of the Decision released today makes you say the verdict was 'fair'? I find many contradictory statements by the WMSC in that document and many areas where they state, essentially, that they don't need to prove anything to make a decision. On the contrary, they need to prove article 151c that I quoted and dissected earlier in this thread. If they proved that and I missed it, please cite me the article number in the Decision.

It's clear from the e-mail conversations presented in the Decision that Alonso and Pedro were discussing with Coughlan aspects of the Ferrari that Coughlan got from Stepney. That was proven beyond any doubt. Those three employees of McLaren were guilty of breaching article 151c of the International Sporting Code. The WMSC failed to prove that any other McLaren employee was involved in this. The WMSC covered their lack of proof by saying that they didn't need to prove it. They went on to say that they simply didn't believe that those three were the only ones at McLaren who were involved. They further stated that because of that belief, they could assume McLaren as a whole were involved and that the verdict was justified. It's a case of compounding suppositions by the WMSC without proof.

If I didn't have to prove anything, and just went by what I 'felt' at the time, I could clear alot of the courts' backlog here in California in a few days....

Nothing of this Decision was 'fair'. The culprits (Pedro, Alonso and Coughlan) get off free and McLaren are crucified.

One other note here concerning drivers. It was stated in article 8.10 that 'it seems unlikely' that a driver would bear the whole responsibility for testing the information gained from Stepney and Coughlan. Bullocks. It takes nothing for a test driver to get his test team together and say 'I would like to try out such and such in the simulators today' without revealing where the ideas came from. Pedro is a highly intelligent and valued tester...I doubt that the test team would be surprised at his suggestions in trying a different weight distribution. It further states in another e-mail that Pedro went and talked to a Bridgestone engineer about the effects of using Ferrari's 'gas' to cool McLaren's tyres. Seems to me that if the testing team were in on this, they would send someone other than Pedro to talk to Bridgestone. By the standards of 'proof' laid out by the WMSC's Decision, this should be enough to prove that Pedro didn't relay any information about Ferrari to the test team, right?

Also, the lack of evidence linking Hamilton to this would also indicate that the information's source was kept secret between Pedro, Alonso and Coughlan. At the time of the emails, Alonso hadn't had a falling out with Hamilton or even an indication the rookie would be a challenge. It's logical to assume Alonso would bring Hamilton in on this, but there was no proof that he was in on it. The bad part about this revelation is that it would appear Hamilton hasn't been deeply involved in the testing of the McLaren's set-up. It confirms my belief that the bulk of set-up and testing was done by Alonso and Pedro.

I'm not a supporter of any team in F1, but this is injustice, pure and simple.

Ahhh these posts I enjoy so much more than the regulars "FIA this!!" "McLaren that!!" been a while since I last enjoying reading a post I don't agree with :D

Oh yes, I guess I have to reply. A real challenge, at last!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

More from Autosport...

Ecclestone fought to keep McLaren in

By Pablo ElizaldeFriday, September 14th 2007, 17:10 GMT

Formula One supremo Bernie Ecclestone has said he campaigned for McLaren to be fined, the Briton admitting the Woking-based squad came close to exclusion from the championship for two years.

"It came very close to McLaren being thrown out, it really was a genuine possibility," Ecclestone told the BBC on Friday.

"A few of us sort of battled on and campaigned for the fine instead," he added.

McLaren were stripped of all their constructors' championship points and fined $100 million in the spy controversy hearing on Thursday.

Ecclestone said the possibility of an exclusion was "much closer than everybody says", and the Briton admitted that would have been bad for the sport.

"Formula One is now more open than it has ever been because the threat is definitely there now if any team is helping anyone else," added Ecclestone. "Even if it is a smaller team than McLaren, they're gone, without any hesitation.

"The alternative to the fine was worse, being excluded from the championship for two years. It was much closer than everybody says it was.

"It really would have been bad news. McLaren would have lost more than they have been fined, if they'd have not been able to keep going."

Any thoughts?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Autumnpuma was the first to write something that makes sense since the WMSC publicized the 'evidence'...

What 'evidence'? I ask...

This is even more ridiculous than I initially thought!...

Plain and simple there are NO evidence!... WMSC's decision was totally based on assumptions!

Read carefully the WMSC's announcement!

1.

There are no less than 9 instances of the phrase 'it seems unlikely'!!! What? Seems unlikely? You can't condemn anyone just because something 'seems unlikely' to you!!! It might as well be more 'likely' than you'll ever think! 'It seems unlikely' means 'I can't believe that', nut it's not proof in any way! 'It seems unlikely' meens I am making an assumption! What 'seems ulikely' to you might 'seem' very true to me and vice versa. Do you believe in God? Well, to me it seems unlikely that such a thing exists... It also seems very ulikely to me that M. Shoemaker got all those championships fairly... But do I have any proof? It also seems very unlikely to me that FIA and WMSC are not favouring Ferrari (I could put forward lots of indications, but do I have any proof?)...

2.

I am not a lawyer, but as far as I know e-mails and phone calls do not consist proof in any civil court. What if I send an e-mail to Autumnpuma stating 'thank you for fixing Ayrton Senna's accident'? Is that a proof that Autumnpuma really did so? Get serious! Of course there was e-mail exchange between Alonso, De La Rosa and Coughlan but it seems very unlikely that the information exchanged really helped McLaren and hurt Ferrari...

3.

McLaren sacked Coughlan the very same day Ferrari did the same to Stepney, but even before that, when the team realized there was a 'vast' exchange of e-mails between the two, they set-up a firewall to stop this kind of action. So, they could set-up a firewall to their servers but they couldn't just delete those incriminating e-mails for 7 months now! Really? Even when they realized how serious the situation was (months ago) they thought they might as well just keep all those information on their servers. Or maybe they couldn't find that 'Delete' button on the keyboard! Oh, yes! That seems very likely! The same applies for the aforementioned drivers. Instead of deleting those messages from their PCs, they just ignored them (I repeat, even when the situation got really bad)!... If I was in their shoes I would have formatted my hard disc long ago... Does this seem likely to you? Thought it did...

4.

Right from the start, Ron invited both the FIA and Ferrari to examine their car. And what did they find? Absolutely nothing! Nada! No part of Ferrari technology was applied to the car whatsoever! Or maybe the McLaren technicians had covered all those Ferrari-intellectual-property parts so well, that even Ferrari could not recognize them! Ah, that seems more likely!...

5.

And now let's get to the 'knowing' point. Using the same reasoning that someone's knowledge might influence his work ("4.15 In sum, the new information on the number and timing of the contacts between Coughlan and Stepney inevitably had an impact on the WMSC's appreciation of the nature of the contacts between Coughlan and Stepney, on its appreciation of the emails between the drivers and on the likelihood of Ferrari confidential information received by Coughlan having an influence on his work with McLaren."), I am asking a simple question: do you think Kimi's years with McLaren can influence his work at Ferrari? Do you think he might pass some information to the team? To put it in other words, does it seem likely to you? No?... Well, it seems very likely to me! So, is this also spying? Should they get any penalties, because, I repeat, it seems very likely! Or you might argue that Coughlan knew a lot more from his contacts with Stepney, than Kimi ever learned in all his McLaren years...

6.

I could go on forever but there is no point... I will resume my thoughts stating that from all the 'evidence' I can only blame 4 people and none of them is punished! None! Instead, the WMSC decided to punish a team in such a way that only one other team is clearly favoured! Finally, I tend to believe that there was only one really incriminating e-mail, which is referred twice in WMSC's statement (so to make an impact), which still however doesn't prove (as Autumnpuma stated) that there was any information used which favoured McLaren and hurt Ferrari...

Again, just assumptions and a black day for the sport... Shame on anyone who's to blame (including McLaren drivers)...

1. Where were the evidence published?there is only a decision where there are small references.We don't know what evidence the FIA examined.And even if we did, we probably wouldn't be able to understand that much. It takes a certain level of proffesionalism, which we don't have (unless someone here is professionaly dealing with motorsports or F1 especially).

2. Emails and phone calls are circumstancial evidence. They may be inadmissible to courts around the world because it may be against the constitution. In some countries though its not.

3. So who is to blame for the emails then and the fact they were discovered?Ferrari of course!

4,5,6 are pretty much answered in this thread.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Spin :rolleyes:

By exaggerating what could have happened he is trying to manage public opinion on the apparent harshness of the actual sanction - Clever, but obvious.

I think you are correct, well done, your prize? $100m - enjoy!

:)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Did they use it in competition that harmed Ferrari? McLaren have proven that they did not. Set-up data that was discussed between Alonso and Pedro was gained from Coughlan's contact with Stepney. As for possessing it, it was found in the private residence of a McLaren employee. That is different from being found at McLaren HQ. Coughlan is guilty, not McLaren of possessing Ferrari data.

A crime is a crime only if the person breaks an established rule. Possessing the Ferrari documents may well be a criminal offense but the FIA is not a court of law so that has no bearing on this situation or the FIA's ruling. Possessing another team's data is not a breach of the International Sporting Code, the Formula One Technical Regulations, or the Formula One Sporting Regulations. Using that data in competition is, but possessing is not. McLaren were judged to be in breach of a rule that is vague to say the very least.

Mike, i think your are argueing intent and not action had been taken by Mclaren...

I just bring forth an example: If you take a gun on an aircraft in USA and when you get caught, will you say you have no proof of my attempt to hijack or something like that??? I think you would spend time in eastern europe mostly for that, no questions will be asked to you...

Edited by goferrarigo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now