la force supreme des mclaren

Mclaren Fined $100million.........

494 posts in this topic

4.

Right from the start, Ron invited both the FIA and Ferrari to examine their car. And what did they find? Absolutely nothing! Nada! No part of Ferrari technology was applied to the car whatsoever! Or maybe the McLaren technicians had covered all those Ferrari-intellectual-property parts so well, that even Ferrari could not recognize them! Ah, that seems more likely!...

Ok So lets say you think Mclaren copied Ferrari's gearbox, will you let FIA and Ferrari engineers go and look exactly at the whole gearbox or only from out side or only the mechanics? And how did Mclaren get all that research from?? A very smart scientist who found all the answers??? And if you let them check anything they want then wouldn't they be able to replicate it????

F1 Live:

Norbert Haug, competition director for McLaren shareholder and engine partner Mercedes-Benz, told the news agency 'sid' at Spa-Francorchamps: "We continue to stand with our partner and also Formula One."

The German also refused to accept that either marque has suffered a blow to its reputation.

He insisted: "I do not believe that people see us as a imitator of others' ideas."

See how he doesn't use the word cheat....

Imitation is the best form of flattery i hear....

Edited by goferrarigo

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But it is the drivers in tandem with a disaffected employee that have caused the whole fiasco.

Actually it was a Ferrai engineer who stole company information and shared it with whoever would listen. IN this case the listening has been blown out of proportion.

I would guess in a court of law only one man is at risk here, and that is the Ferrari engineer. The rest are just pawns in a kangaroo court.

Edited by YHR

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Actually it was a Ferrai engineer who stole company information and shared it with whoever would listen. IN this case the listening has been blown out of proportion.

I would guess in a court of law only one man is at risk here, and that is the Ferrari engineer. The rest are just pawns in a kangaroo court.

Thanks for having the same conclusion. But we can't do anything. Just watch Ferrari get stronger and others become weaker as being victimised by Ferrari and FIA. :blush:

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Mike, I said the verdict was fair. Not the penalty. The stupidity of alonso and de la rosa made it so.

I agree. THE VERDICT WAS FAIR BUT NOT THE PENALTY.

And the whole thing started with >>> Ferrari internal problem which affected >>> Nigel Stepney >>> Mike Coughlan >>> McLaren.

Eventually, McLaren becomes the scapegoat of Ferrari internal problem. What a nice move by Jean Todt. :clap3:

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For instance if you know your neighbour has a car similar to yours and his is more powerful and you get a list with all the changes he has done, wouldn't be easier for you to make yours go faster than it is or even faster than his?

Could not have said it better myself, agreed!!! :clap3::clap3::clap3:

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RD told FIA about those emails between FA and DLR because it was his best chance to reduce damage for the team and show again a few employees as guilty. But Coughlan is already out of the team... They really fired him very, very, very, very quickly.

Why are still Fernado Alonso and Pedro Mart

Edited by abbas_gear

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Even more from Autosport...

space.gifMcLaren may avoid appeal for sake of F1

By Alan BaldwinSaturday, September 15th 2007, 10:18 GMT

McLaren may decide not to appeal their harsh penalty in the interests of Formula One, team boss Ron Dennis said on Saturday.

The record $100 million USD fine and loss of all McLaren's 2007 constructors' points were imposed by the FIA on Thursday at a hearing into the spying controversy.

"If we do not appeal this, it will be because we want closure," Dennis told reporters at the Belgian Grand Prix.

"The other teams I hope will understand the financial penalty we will swallow in the interests of the sport."

McLaren say they did not gain any competitive advantage from the Ferrari data. However, the hearing in Paris heard how double world champion Fernando Alonso and test driver Pedro de la Rosa were aware Coughlan was getting information from inside Ferrari.

Dennis has six days in which to appeal and he said he would make a recommendation to the McLaren shareholders, who would then have the final say.

Dennis was wary of the prospect of months, if not years, of legal argument ahead and the accompanying distraction to the team management.

But he emphasized that any decision against an appeal must not be interpreted as an admission of guilt.

"I don't want to drag this thing on if I can get closure; and closure is for Formula One. It has to be complete closure," he said, when asked about the prospect of legal action by Ferrari rumbling on in the Italian courts for years to come.

The Italian team have taken action against former employee Nigel Stepney, who is accused of leaking the dossier to Coughlan earlier this year.

Italian police notified Dennis and other McLaren managers at Monza last weekend that they were under investigation, while Coughlan faces legal action in England.

The $100 million fine will be minus any prize money that would have come to the team, and that alone could effectively halve the size of any cheque payable.

McLaren, 40 percent owned by DaimlerChrysler's Mercedes and one of the wealthiest teams in the paddock, are debt-free despite having spent in the region of $600 million on their state-of-the-art Woking factory.

Annual turnover is roughly $450-500 million.

"There is not more than one other team in the pitlane who can take a $100 million hit," said Dennis. "At the end of the day, we can swallow it."

So what does everyone make of that? Is it really because they want closure, or because they know they would lose...

Source

Edited by rainmaster

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Max is not a fan of Mclaren :blink:

There does appear to be a lot of jealousy in F1 - Best to accept the fine and move on me thinks.

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I doubt if they would appeal.

When Honda said they would they ended up not doing so in case they got a bigger penalty after much talk from the FIA...

What Max has said today reminds me of that situation.

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Even more from Autosport...

So what does everyone make of that? Is it really because they want closure, or because they know they would lose...

Source

:lolroll: Whoever buys that, deserves the FIA!

Lemme see: Ecclestone says the punishment could have been much worse, but he saved the day. Then he is just exaggerating things to make himself look better.

McLaren says that they will not appeal a 100m fine and losing the WCC (not to mention that they now look like pirates to the rest of the non-McLaren biased world) and I bet the british press will hurry to congratulate for their "gentleman" attitude or some rubbish like that.

This is so ridiculous!

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Another ramifacation of this should/will be the loss of travel money, tv money the worst spot in the pits and no gigantic motor coach parking space.

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FIA president Max Mosley has questioned McLaren team chief Ron Dennis's integrity in his dealing with the governing body during the spying affair - but Dennis himself has defended his actions by insisting he was truthful throughout.

Mosley recounted the events that led the FIA to contact the McLaren drivers and request their collaboration, which resulted in new evidence submitted to the World Motor Sport Council against McLaren.

And the FIA president believes Dennis was not telling him the whole truth on the affair.

Speaking on ITV today, Mosley said: "On the morning of the Hungarian Grand Prix, Ron rang me and he said, 'I've just had Alonso in the motorhome and he says he's got information and he's threatening to give it to the Federation.

"So I said, 'What did you say Ron?' He said, 'I said, go on and hand it over.'

"I said, 'Ron, you said exactly the right thing.'

"And then Ron said, 'But there isn't any information.'

"So I said, 'So it's an empty threat?'

"And he replied: 'Yes, a completely empty threat. There's no information, there's nothing to come out; I can assure you that if there was something, Max, I would have told you.'

"Now this was a week after looking me in the eye in the World Council and telling me there was absolutely nothing wrong and everybody had done exactly as they should do, so I believed him.

"I've known Ron for 40 years; it's very difficult for me, when somebody I've known for 40 years looks me in the eye and says, 'Max, I'm telling the truth with complete sincerity' - you believe him.

"It was only when I got the list from the Italian police [showing] 323 SMS phone calls going over a three-month period between Coughlan and Stepney, [that I concluded] there had to be more to this.

"You don't get 300 messages arranging a visit to Honda. This is something serious. At which point, I sat down and wrote the letter to the drivers, and the rest is history."

Dennis quickly responded to Mosley's accusations, defending his actions and stating at the time of speaking with Mosley, he was telling the truth based on what he himself knew at the time.

"I was a little surprised by what Max said," Dennis told ITV. "I am working hard to get closure on a very unpleasant experience that McLaren have had.

"I don't want to get into the detail, but I do want to address one thing, and that is that when someone asks me a question - and I've answered some difficult questions - at the time I made those answers I told the complete truth.

"At the point of the first hearing, when I was asked the question did I know anything more, the truth was, I didn't.

"The emails that passed between our drivers were as big a surprise to me when I heard, as anyone else - and as I said, if they existed, what I said to Fernando was that he must give them to the FIA.

"I just want to be very clear that at no stage did I ever say any lie to anybody.

"I put my integrity above everything. I just want to be very clear about that particular point."

The words in bold...absolutely pathetic. Everything is becoming fair.They want Ron out that's all..

Edited by cristiano84

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:lolroll: Whoever buys that, deserves the FIA!

Lemme see: Ecclestone says the punishment could have been much worse, but he saved the day. Then he is just exaggerating things to make himself look better.

Next step that bernie must do is to take F1 away from the FIA and establish its own delegates...

F the FIA

McLaren says that they will not appeal a 100m fine and losing the WCC (not to mention that they now look like pirates to the rest of the non-McLaren biased world) and I bet the british press will hurry to congratulate for their "gentleman" attitude or some rubbish like that.

This is so ridiculous!

if i was Ron ( thank god im not :lol: ..) i would appeal...

Edited by UrKo

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Watch it mate. You are attacking the church <_<

:blink:

Hamiltonian Church, you mean.

Edited by AleHop

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What part of the Decision released today makes you say the verdict was 'fair'? I find many contradictory statements by the WMSC in that document and many areas where they state, essentially, that they don't need to prove anything to make a decision. On the contrary, they need to prove article 151c that I quoted and dissected earlier in this thread. If they proved that and I missed it, please cite me the article number in the Decision.

It's clear from the e-mail conversations presented in the Decision that Alonso and Pedro were discussing with Coughlan aspects of the Ferrari that Coughlan got from Stepney. That was proven beyond any doubt. Those three employees of McLaren were guilty of breaching article 151c of the International Sporting Code. The WMSC failed to prove that any other McLaren employee was involved in this. The WMSC covered their lack of proof by saying that they didn't need to prove it. They went on to say that they simply didn't believe that those three were the only ones at McLaren who were involved. They further stated that because of that belief, they could assume McLaren as a whole were involved and that the verdict was justified. It's a case of compounding suppositions by the WMSC without proof.

If I didn't have to prove anything, and just went by what I 'felt' at the time, I could clear alot of the courts' backlog here in California in a few days....

Nothing of this Decision was 'fair'. The culprits (Pedro, Alonso and Coughlan) get off free and McLaren are crucified.

One other note here concerning drivers. It was stated in article 8.10 that 'it seems unlikely' that a driver would bear the whole responsibility for testing the information gained from Stepney and Coughlan. Bullocks. It takes nothing for a test driver to get his test team together and say 'I would like to try out such and such in the simulators today' without revealing where the ideas came from. Pedro is a highly intelligent and valued tester...I doubt that the test team would be surprised at his suggestions in trying a different weight distribution. It further states in another e-mail that Pedro went and talked to a Bridgestone engineer about the effects of using Ferrari's 'gas' to cool McLaren's tyres. Seems to me that if the testing team were in on this, they would send someone other than Pedro to talk to Bridgestone. By the standards of 'proof' laid out by the WMSC's Decision, this should be enough to prove that Pedro didn't relay any information about Ferrari to the test team, right?

Also, the lack of evidence linking Hamilton to this would also indicate that the information's source was kept secret between Pedro, Alonso and Coughlan. At the time of the emails, Alonso hadn't had a falling out with Hamilton or even an indication the rookie would be a challenge. It's logical to assume Alonso would bring Hamilton in on this, but there was no proof that he was in on it. The bad part about this revelation is that it would appear Hamilton hasn't been deeply involved in the testing of the McLaren's set-up. It confirms my belief that the bulk of set-up and testing was done by Alonso and Pedro.

I'm not a supporter of any team in F1, but this is injustice, pure and simple.

If it were only Coughlan involved, as was first thought, then I don't think that the WMSC would have changed their verdict from the previous hearing. The emails, to my eyes at least, show clear intent by de la Rosa and Alonso to make use of the information provided by Coughlan. That's a different kettle of fish to a lone rogue employee. That's dissemination of a rival's technical information within the McLaren team. Like it or not, McLaren the team are responsible for the conduct of their employees. An engineer I once knew leaked tender information to the rival bidders so that his preferred contractor got the job. He got found out. He was fired. His company was sued for a large sum. They lost. Vicarious liability. That's the way it is.

Coughlan, Alonso and de la Rosa get off free? We'll see. Max gave the drivers immunity in return for information. Isn't that similar to what happens in the US courts? You suggested gardening leave. My earlier post is more to the point. Coughlan certainly ain't getting off free. It so happens that I don't believe that Ron was involved, and I have sympathy for him, as well as respect. As for Lewis, again I posted earlier the reasons I thought he was out of the loop - you pointed out another valid reason. With Lowe and Neale I'm not so sure.

Based on the evidence as presented, I would find McLaren guilty, with much regret. The penalty, on the other hand, is disproportionate and engineered to maintain the illusion of a sporting contest in the final 4 races.

Edited by monza gorilla

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"I've known Ron for 40 years; it's very difficult for me, when somebody I've known for 40 years looks me in the eye and says, 'Max, I'm telling the truth with complete sincerity' - you believe him.

Now Ron says he didn't know that the drivers knew that Coughlan had known that Stepney...

A biger liar!

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If it were only Coughlan involved, as was first thought, then I don't think that the WMSC would have changed their verdict from the previous hearing. The emails, to my eyes at least, show clear intent by de la Rosa and Alonso to make use of the information provided by Coughlan. That's a different kettle of fish to a lone rogue employee. That's dissemination of a rival's technical information within the McLaren team. Like it or not, McLaren the team are responsible for the conduct of their employees. An engineer I once knew leaked tender information to the rival bidders so that his preferred contractor got the job. He got found out. He was fired. His company was sued for a large sum. They lost. Vicarious liability. That's the way it is.

Coughlan, Alonso and de la Rosa get off free? We'll see. Max gave the drivers immunity in return for information. Isn't that similar to what happens in the US courts? You suggested gardening leave. My earlier post is more to the point. Coughlan certainly ain't getting off free. It so happens that I don't believe that Ron was involved, and I have sympathy for him, as well as respect. As for Lewis, again I posted earlier the reasons I thought he was out of the loop - you pointed out another valid reason. With Lowe and Neale I'm not so sure.

Based on the evidence as presented, I would find McLaren guilty, with much regret. The penalty, on the other hand, is disproportionate and engineered to maintain the illusion of a sporting contest in the final 4 races.

I have'nt read a better post in ages, with all the Sh#t flying around here lately...

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If it were only Coughlan involved, as was first thought, then I don't think that the WMSC would have changed their verdict from the previous hearing. The emails, to my eyes at least, show clear intent by de la Rosa and Alonso to make use of the information provided by Coughlan. That's a different kettle of fish to a lone rogue employee. That's dissemination of a rival's technical information within the McLaren team. Like it or not, McLaren the team are responsible for the conduct of their employees. An engineer I once knew leaked tender information to the rival bidders so that his preferred contractor got the job. He got found out. He was fired. His company was sued for a large sum. They lost. Vicarious liability. That's the way it is.

Coughlan, Alonso and de la Rosa get off free? We'll see. Max gave the drivers immunity in return for information. Isn't that similar to what happens in the US courts? You suggested gardening leave. My earlier post is more to the point. Coughlan certainly ain't getting off free. It so happens that I don't believe that Ron was involved, and I have sympathy for him, as well as respect. As for Lewis, again I posted earlier the reasons I thought he was out of the loop - you pointed out another valid reason. With Lowe and Neale I'm not so sure.

Based on the evidence as presented, I would find McLaren guilty, with much regret. The penalty, on the other hand, is disproportionate and engineered to maintain the illusion of a sporting contest in the final 4 races.

Just one minor point that you seem to ignore here is the the email traffic between Alonso and de la Rosa is dated before the confidential dossier got to McLaren... Exactly, how do you explain that?

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That's because it is a minor point. So you're saying that de la Rosa's email is actually bullsh!t? That there was no info from Coughlan to Pedro relating to Ferrari?

EDIT: It's obvious! Pedro is an undercover Ferrari agent planting incriminating information! Why didn't I see it before?? :dam:

Edited by monza gorilla

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I'm a little bit surprised by FA & LH. I thought both of them would tank the remaining races so as not to get the tag of a "wdc from a cheating team."

Let's see what happens.

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