la force supreme des mclaren

Mclaren Fined $100million.........

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Not sure what to think of this. Nando and Pedro had some role in it, no? Nando took it too far IF he had a major role and IF his intent was to **** McLaren.

I doubt that was his intent. Yeah, Nando was treated "unfairly" and Pedro "got screwed out of a ride"...but I doubt either of them would hurt McLaren. I think they used the data to help McLaren, not to hurt it. You never cheat thinking you'll get caught. And Nando and Pedro had to think that they could both be banned over this. Therefore, they used the data, but it wasn't to **** McLaren.

However, I can't help but be a little disappointed, as this really shows what F1 is. It's a drama, not a form of motorsport. Advantages are gained by engineers, not drivers. It really echoes everything bad about F1, and everything about why I can't seem to get interested in F1. Industrial espionage implies business, and business is not something I want the main focus to be on.

Okay, enough whining for today, off to The Cafe.

I'll get lambasted, but I'll say my piece regardless -

Alonso has shown himself to have very little class. To threaten a man of Ron's caliber and standing in F1 is unbelievable and showed an unbelievable lack of respect. I do not accept that there is any excuse for such behaviour as Ron Dennis is the head of a very successful multi national company. It's like Michael Schumacher or Kimi saying the same sort of thing to Luca at Ferrari. It just wouldn't happen -

You know Ferrari have an unwritten policy of never hiring Italians to drive one of their race cars. It's something to do with their latin temperament that they believe does not lend it self to the discipline and balance required for F1 - Nando has this kind of temperament which he displays when under immense pressure.

Condemnation for Nando is currently universal. As to where he goes from here, it is likely that his stock has dropped considerably with only Renault a reaslistic home for his petulant ways. Teams up and down the pit lane will be nervous to employ Nando as he has shown himself to lack respect for authority

Did Lewis know about the Coughlan info? probably - But I can wager good money that if there was any evidence of his direct knowledge Nando or Pedro would have outed him as the FIA made it clear that non co-operation would render a driver or team member liable for sanction. If he ws not implicated in 300 odd emails and text messages I dont think he was directly in the loop.

FWIW I used to like Nando as I met at Goodwood and found him to be a very pleasant chap. His decision to live in Oxfordand support Liverpool FC I found very refreshing in a world full of prima donna's. Now I think his d!ck head like some of his supporters.

:wacko:

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As already said in the thread Damage Limitation... If Alonso went, he would have made it worse for Mclaren(as Ron confirms that he and ALonso did have a heated arguement)

Lewis IMO just hid the infomation well, like a smart kid

Very good posts Andres and Russ, A pleasure to read them

EDIT: btw, i think it is christano84 = FIArrari.....

So many congrats on my posts lately, I think my head will start to swell...Suddenly, I have this strange need to drive a McLaren...

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I wonder why Mike Coughlan was fired so quickly while Fernando Alonso is still working for McLaren... If it was only three disloyal employees who knew about that why did not fired them all?

I have my own theory, McLaren tryed to f*ck Alonso and now Alonso is in position to f*ck McLaren up.

which position? :unsure:

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fu ck off ferrari, fu ck off FIA. Anyone who says this wasn't biased needs their heads checking over. Clearly we all know now F1 is here to boast the name ferrrari all over the world and try and show that they're better than everyone else. But they're just cheating dirty b#####ds. Same with shoemaker. dont give a sh!t what everyone else thinks, they can **** off. Cant even be bothered with it anymore. F ucking ridiculas

fu ck off ferrari

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fu ck off ferrari, fu ck off FIA. Anyone who says this wasn't biased needs their heads checking over. Clearly we all know now F1 is here to boast the name ferrrari all over the world and try and show that they're better than everyone else. But they're just cheating dirty b#####ds. Same with shoemaker. dont give a sh!t what everyone else thinks, they can **** off. Cant even be bothered with it anymore. F ucking ridiculas

fu ck off ferrari

You're right but no one will believe you because saying to some people FIArrari is getting support from the FIA is like saying "The Area 51 exists!" or "Elvis is alive!"

But they are far from the truth

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Spin :rolleyes:

By exaggerating what could have happened he is trying to manage public opinion on the apparent harshness of the actual sanction - Clever, but obvious.

Spot on, my simian friend.

Mike, i think your are argueing intent and not action had been taken by Mclaren...

I just bring forth an example: If you take a gun on an aircraft in USA and when you get caught, will you say you have no proof of my attempt to hijack or something like that??? I think you would spend time in eastern europe mostly for that, no questions will be asked to you...

Having a gun on a plane doesn't mean your intent is to hijack that plane. That person could be a security guard that likes to carry his gun or perhaps a very nervous woman afraid of rape. Nevertheless, I do see your point, AJ.

Ok So lets say you think Mclaren copied Ferrari's gearbox, will you let FIA and Ferrari engineers go and look exactly at the whole gearbox or only from out side or only the mechanics? And how did Mclaren get all that research from?? A very smart scientist who found all the answers??? And if you let them check anything they want then wouldn't they be able to replicate it????

See how he doesn't use the word cheat....

Imitation is the best form of flattery i hear....

And what happens when Williams hires a chief aero guy from Renault. Isn't he bringing Renault's research with him? You can't stop that level of imitation. I will have to say that

Another ramifacation of this should/will be the loss of travel money, tv money the worst spot in the pits and no gigantic motor coach parking space.

There's no 'should' in that, Bruce, they 'will' have to deal with all that. I've read websites that talk about McLaren only paying 30m instead of 100m and that's bullsh!t. McLaren have lost far more than 30m. They have lost next year's projected revenues. Most F1 teams pay for the next year with this year's revenue and McLaren will have to eat that cost minus 30m. They will end up 'paying' a fine of 100m anyway, just not as an official 'fine' to the FIA.

If it were only Coughlan involved, as was first thought, then I don't think that the WMSC would have changed their verdict from the previous hearing. The emails, to my eyes at least, show clear intent by de la Rosa and Alonso to make use of the information provided by Coughlan. That's a different kettle of fish to a lone rogue employee. That's dissemination of a rival's technical information within the McLaren team. Like it or not, McLaren the team are responsible for the conduct of their employees. An engineer I once knew leaked tender information to the rival bidders so that his preferred contractor got the job. He got found out. He was fired. His company was sued for a large sum. They lost. Vicarious liability. That's the way it is.

Coughlan, Alonso and de la Rosa get off free? We'll see. Max gave the drivers immunity in return for information. Isn't that similar to what happens in the US courts? You suggested gardening leave. My earlier post is more to the point. Coughlan certainly ain't getting off free. It so happens that I don't believe that Ron was involved, and I have sympathy for him, as well as respect. As for Lewis, again I posted earlier the reasons I thought he was out of the loop - you pointed out another valid reason. With Lowe and Neale I'm not so sure.

Based on the evidence as presented, I would find McLaren guilty, with much regret. The penalty, on the other hand, is disproportionate and engineered to maintain the illusion of a sporting contest in the final 4 races.

I'll buy that, Russ, and it dovetails with what Bruce said to me yesterday over the phone. Bruce said that what a company is responsible for what it's employees do. That is very correct. Coughlan was in charge of parts R&D and manufacturing/designing so he would be working with the test design and track crews. This means that his contact with Pedro on this matter would be expected. He likely works closely with Pedro and the test crew. This goes along with the evidence which repeatedly mentions 'testing' in relation to using the Ferrari data. I would wager that the supervisors of the testing crew were in on this as well, but how can you possibly sort that out? You can't. The company as a whole must be punished for the actions of a few employees. That goes against my personal view of 'fair' but there it is.

In an ideal world only the guilty would be punished. Ron, and the house he built, would not be touched while the true guilty parties (Pedro, Alonso and Coughlan) would be hanged, so to speak. When presented with the emails by Ron Dennis, Max had a choice to make. Punish the guilty parties or take down McLaren. He chose to grant immunity to the guilty and take down the innocent. Nice. But, as you and Bruce point out, the president of a company must take the hit for his employees. That and the FIA would stand to make more money off of McLaren than Pedro, Alonso and Coughlan.

Ron may not be completely innocent in this, I feel. The emails talk about knowing when Ferrari were going to pit in two races (Australia and Bahrain). Ron might have known this, as he sits on the pit wall, but each driver has his own race engineer to develop pit strategies and such so it's equally possibly Ron didn't know. The matter of the tyre gas, if used at a race, Ron surely would know about. Thing is, he likely would not have known the source of the information. In the end I think Ron probably wasn't in the loop. His matrix management style is set up so that the information he gets is from his department heads and this Ferrari scandal seems to have gone on a few levels below that.

One other thought about Hamilton. I've no proof at all for this, but it's possible Alonso may have used the Ferrari tyre gas in his tyres, and not shared that with Hamilton (I point to Hammy's two tyre failures).

Now a question: Does Alonso's immunity extend to disciplinary action within the team? Why grant Alonso immunity in the first place? Dennis turned over all the emails so what more could Max gain from this? The only reason, really, to grant the guy immunity would be to preserve the excitement of the driver's championship. So, what if Ron stuffs the appeal, and as I suggested earlier, removes Alonso from the game. That would be a great middle finger extended to Max, wouldn't it?

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I'll get lambasted, but I'll say my piece regardless -

Alonso has shown himself to have very little class. To threaten a man of Ron's caliber and standing in F1 is unbelievable and showed an unbelievable lack of respect. I do not accept that there is any excuse for such behaviour as Ron Dennis is the head of a very successful multi national company. It's like Michael Schumacher or Kimi saying the same sort of thing to Luca at Ferrari. It just wouldn't happen -

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Lewis IMO just hid the infomation well, like a smart kid

Not so. I've seen how persons of one nation will stick together rather tightly. I believe Pedro and Alonso sharing the same nationality gave them a closer friendship than Alonso had with Hamilton. Add to that Pedro's bitterness at not getting Hamilton's seat and I come away with the picture that none of this was shared with Hamilton.

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I happened before. It the good old days (aka the 50s) there were even cases of punches and bloody noses between drivers and their superiors.

True.

Alonso has lost none of his racecraft or technical knowledge so he might be employed in another team to good effect, but what he's done in this saga drops him below Ide in my book. Pedro too.

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So many congrats on my posts lately, I think my head will start to swell...Suddenly, I have this strange need to drive a McLaren...

Maybe you can be the new rookie who kicks Hamiltons a##....

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Not so. I've seen how persons of one nation will stick together rather tightly. I believe Pedro and Alonso sharing the same nationality gave them a closer friendship than Alonso had with Hamilton. Add to that Pedro's bitterness at not getting Hamilton's seat and I come away with the picture that none of this was shared with Hamilton.

Very true, those are the key reasons why Hami probably didn't know, or didn't know to the extent of others...

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From pitpass.com

15/09/2007

Ron Dennis' comments earlier today confirmed that he did indeed advise the FIA that new evidence was available relating to the spy saga following a confrontation with Fernando Alonso on the morning of the Hungarian GP.

In recent days there have been rumours doing the rounds claiming that Dennis contacted Max Mosley after Alonso allegedly demanded number one status within the team, telling the McLaren boss that unless his demands were met he would go the FIA.

Today's comments from Dennis and indeed Mosley appeared to confirm that this was true.

However, in a further twist to the saga, Mosley has now thanked Alonso for his actions, essentially providing the evidence that condemned his own team.

"Without Alonso we wouldn't have known what had happened," the Gazzetta dello Sport website quotes Mosley as saying. "He was the only one on his team who did the right thing. Until that moment we only had the communications provided by the Italian police but no certainty, which however we obtained with Alonso's e-mails."

Speaking at the post qualifying press conference, Alonso refused to talk about Mosley's comments, however, he told reporters that he is confident that there will no change in the attitude of the team towards him and that it will continue to treat him and Lewis Hamilton as equals.

"I am not concerned," he said, when asked if he thought the team might favour Hamilton. "They always said they will do the best they can to win races and to help both drivers win races and championships. It's the way it is going now so I am not worried."

Meanwhile, just in case the Woking boys should feel inclined to put a 'spanner in the works' after the Spaniard brought the inquisition to its door, Max Mosley sent out a firm warning.

"If they do anything wrong against Alonso, they will have to answer to us in Paris and we will do what is necessary," he said.

The first part in bold shows just exactly why I despise Max Mosley. Alonso is the only one in the team that did the 'right thing'? How far from the truth that is!!

The second part in bold answers a question I had about Alonso. It would appear that Alonso's immunity extends to his place in the team as well. How the FIA get power to dictate to a private company who it should and should not fire is beyond me. Then again, I've seen how decisions about F1 are made and this doesn't surprise me.

I hope the clever boys at Woking can figure out a way to screw Alonso without it being traced. Fingers crossed on that one.

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From pitpass.com

The first part in bold shows just exactly why I despise Max Mosley. Alonso is the only one in the team that did the 'right thing'? How far from the truth that is!!

The second part in bold answers a question I had about Alonso. It would appear that Alonso's immunity extends to his place in the team as well. How the FIA get power to dictate to a private company who it should and should not fire is beyond me. Then again, I've seen how decisions about F1 are made and this doesn't surprise me.

I hope the clever boys at Woking can figure out a way to screw Alonso without it being traced. Fingers crossed on that one.

:nono1:

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:nono1:

Was that in reference to my hopeful wish that McLaren screw Alonso? I hope they screw him so hard he whistles when he walks.

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"If they do anything wrong against Alonso, they will have to answer to us in Paris and we will do what is necessary," he said.

:yikes:

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Was that in reference to my hopeful wish that McLaren screw Alonso? I hope they screw him so hard he whistles when he walks.

:lol: but still :nono1:

British media needs a scapegoat and they are laying all responsibility on Alonso. Not only is unfair, it doesn't even makes sense.

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From pitpass.com

The first part in bold shows just exactly why I despise Max Mosley. Alonso is the only one in the team that did the 'right thing'? How far from the truth that is!!

The second part in bold answers a question I had about Alonso. It would appear that Alonso's immunity extends to his place in the team as well. How the FIA get power to dictate to a private company who it should and should not fire is beyond me. Then again, I've seen how decisions about F1 are made and this doesn't surprise me.

I hope the clever boys at Woking can figure out a way to screw Alonso without it being traced. Fingers crossed on that one.

Wow! I almost cannot believe that article.

I actually thought my opinion of Max Mosley couldn't sink any further, it has.

Question: Is Mosley spanish? Has Alonso got something on him? Strange!

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:lol: but still :nono1:

British media needs a scapegoat and they are laying all responsibility on Alonso. Not only is unfair, it doesn't even makes sense.

Makes perfect sense. Coughlan talked with Pedro who talked with Alonso. The WMSC Decision supports this. The three of them then tried to use Ferrari data. There is no proof that the whole McLaren company was involved. If there was, please let me know where I missed that.

I also don't care one whit about the British media's views. I form my opinions from the WMSC Decision and the email proofs contained therein. Alonso needs to be screwed like a hooker wearing a 1/2 OFF sale T-shirt. Without lube.

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Wow! I almost cannot believe that article.

I actually thought my opinion of Max Mosley couldn't sink any further, it has.

Question: Is Mosley spanish? Has Alonso got something on him? Strange!

Well, Max is no doubt overjoyed that Alonso tried to use Ferrari's data because it means he can then use that to sucker-punch a man he loathes: Ron Dennis.

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I hope the clever boys at Woking can figure out a way to screw Alonso without it being traced. Fingers crossed on that one.

Polonium 210 perhaps?

ooh the controversy...

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Makes perfect sense. Coughlan talked with Pedro who talked with Alonso. The WMSC Decision supports this. The three of them then tried to use Ferrari data. There is no proof that the whole McLaren company was involved. If there was, please let me know where I missed that.

I also don't care one whit about the British media's views. I form my opinions from the WMSC Decision and the email proofs contained therein. Alonso needs to be screwed like a hooker wearing a 1/2 OFF sale T-shirt. Without lube.

The e-mails show the intent of using that info. As per previous posts, I would have guessed you all would say they are innocent, based on that. Why that intent makes McLaren innocent and Alonso guilty all of a sudden?

Alonso blackmailing Ron Dennis? Unless he sleeps with Mosley, I don't think he is so smart when it comes to F1 politics (and no one can't deny he is not smart at all when it comes to politics!) to risk putting his a## on the line in the hopes that the FIA would save him. He is in no enviable position now. He might be hot headed, stubborn and even moronic at times, but you don't have to be a genius to figure out that all this means he is now damaged goods. Who would like to hire a "traitor"? No, I don't think Alonso was benefited at all from all this.

Ron Dennis, betrayed by his drivers and closest collaborators? For 6 months??? And he never suspected a thing??? Well, then he might be a guy of high morals (although McLaren's history is far from being squeaky clean) but this cast a huge shadow on his skills as a team director.

Everybody is playing a game of poker now. Ron Dennis, Alonso, Lewis, Coughlan, Mosley...they are all bluffing. It is rather obvious. So why believe Ron's bluff over Alonso's? (or viceversa, for that matter)

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The e-mails show the intent of using that info. As per previous posts, I would have guessed you all would say they are innocent, based on that. Why that intent makes McLaren innocent and Alonso guilty all of a sudden?

Alonso blackmailing Ron Dennis? Unless he sleeps with Mosley, I don't think he is so smart when it comes to F1 politics (and no one can't deny he is not smart at all when it comes to politics!) to risk putting his a## on the line in the hopes that the FIA would save him. He is in no enviable position now. He might be hot headed, stubborn and even moronic at times, but you don't have to be a genius to figure out that all this means he is now damaged goods. Who would like to hire a "traitor"? No, I don't think Alonso was benefited at all from all this.

Ron Dennis, betrayed by his drivers and closest collaborators? For 6 months??? And he never suspected a thing??? Well, then he might be a guy of high morals (although McLaren's history is far from being squeaky clean) but this cast a huge shadow on his skills as a team director.

Everybody is playing a game of poker now. Ron Dennis, Alonso, Lewis, Coughlan, Mosley...they are all bluffing. It is rather obvious. So why believe Ron's bluff over Alonso's? (or viceversa, for that matter)

My biggest problem is that I see things as either black or white. Mosely & Ron are both on record as stating that Alonso was attempting to blackmail Ron if he was not afforded No1 status in the team - This is fact!

It beggars belief that Alonso is now being lauded as the next best thing for outing the team and has even got the backing of the FIA in his quest to win the WDC - What happens if the team make a mistake in a pitstop or a tyre bursts and it costs Alonso a victory - Will Mclaren be in the dock again?

This is just unbelievable

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Just to remind everybody that the alleged threats by Alonso come in the same race in which Hamilton told RD to f*** himself and the team orders...

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