la force supreme des mclaren

Mclaren Fined $100million.........

494 posts in this topic

Does the FIA said that? FIA guaranteed inmunity to the drivers in this process but never heard the FIA telling McLaren they could not fired them. You're inventing things and trying to use your inventions to demonstrate something. Utter crap is what you're writing... If McLaren would want to fired both PDR and FA sure they could do it, an average lawyer could win that case. If the things were the way british press is reporting and this were only something done by 3 persons (Coughlan, FA and PDR) sure the spaniards would have been kicked out. Why didn't RD fired them as soon as he knew this? (more than a month ago) Why is not McLaren going to appel this if it's SO clear the team is not to blame? Well, maybe (just maybe) things are not the way some people is saying. Now, we know that Kimi was an evidence as well, tomorrow we will probably know that LH knew about this but for sure people will go on talking crap. I'm so tired about this :rolleyes:

+1 agree

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Of course he would appeal to FIA, Tribunal Arbitral du Sport (TAS/CAS) and the International Court of Justice. And we would probably know the whole truth, eventually.

well . . maybe he can just keep quite and leave . . . so that his future in F1 dosent get tarnished by the findings of a formal investigation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Does the FIA said that? FIA guaranteed inmunity to the drivers in this process but never heard the FIA telling McLaren they could not fired them. You're inventing things and trying to use your inventions to demonstrate something. Utter crap is what you're writing... If McLaren would want to fired both PDR and FA sure they could do it, an average lawyer could win that case. If the things were the way british press is reporting and this were only something done by 3 persons (Coughlan, FA and PDR) sure the spaniards would have been kicked out. Why didn't RD fired them as soon as he knew this? (more than a month ago) Why is not McLaren going to appel this if it's SO clear the team is not to blame? Well, maybe (just maybe) things are not the way some people is saying. Now, we know that Kimi was an evidence as well, tomorrow we will probably know that LH knew about this but for sure people will go on talking crap. I'm so tired about this :rolleyes:

What Mosley HAS said is that the FIA would watch for, and take action against reprisals against Alonso or de la Rosa by the team. As fans, we have no way of knowing whether the FIA gave McLaren a more specific definition of what that means. But the FIA has demonstrated a willingness to meddle inappropriately in what should have been strictly team business (Alonso's grid penalty in Hungary). I am not familiar enough with the sporting regs to say for sure, but I would think that the FIA could have stepped in and reversed the stewards' decision before the race was run.

As for firing the drivers out of hand - two words - sponsorship money. I would think that the presence of Fernando Alonso accounts for a sizeable amount (if not majority) of the sponsorship money received by McLaren (and hence its operating budget). I believe (that means OPINION) that accounts for why FA is still on the team (didn't Vodafone go to McL because of FA? I'm not sure of that, but I did think that was the case) Personally, from a team management point of view, I think FA should have been fired when and if he confronted his boss. And I do believe the confrontation with threats took place because: both Mosely and Dennis acknowledge that a confrontation took place, and while not stating excatly what transpired, make no denial of that widely reported threat (make me number 1, or I go to the FIA) took place. Again, as fans, we will never really know. As far as dlR is concerned - I honestly don't know why he's still with the team - but then it's early yet.

I don't know what RD knew, nor when he knew it, but from a team management perspective, it's irrelevant. It's HIS team to protect. It's not about Alonso as a driver - it's about having a disgruntled employee who appears to be prepared to cause significant damage to the team if his requirements are not met. I accept that it was a possibility that no confrontation took place, however considering everything that has been said, I don't feel it's likely. I don't think Alonso is a demon, and I don't think that RD is completely innocent - F1 is a big money business, and you don't succeed by being nice. And if FA isn't with McL next year, I hope he does get a drive elsewhere - he's talented, and talented drivers are always a pleasure to watch.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What Mosley HAS said is that the FIA would watch for, and take action against reprisals against Alonso or de la Rosa by the team. As fans, we have no way of knowing whether the FIA gave McLaren a more specific definition of what that means. But the FIA has demonstrated a willingness to meddle inappropriately in what should have been strictly team business (Alonso's grid penalty in Hungary). I am not familiar enough with the sporting regs to say for sure, but I would think that the FIA could have stepped in and reversed the stewards' decision before the race was run.

As for firing the drivers out of hand - two words - sponsorship money. I would think that the presence of Fernando Alonso accounts for a sizeable amount (if not majority) of the sponsorship money received by McLaren (and hence its operating budget). I believe (that means OPINION) that accounts for why FA is still on the team (didn't Vodafone go to McL because of FA? I'm not sure of that, but I did think that was the case) Personally, from a team management point of view, I think FA should have been fired when and if he confronted his boss. And I do believe the confrontation with threats took place because: both Mosely and Dennis acknowledge that a confrontation took place, and while not stating excatly what transpired, make no denial of that widely reported threat (make me number 1, or I go to the FIA) took place. Again, as fans, we will never really know. As far as dlR is concerned - I honestly don't know why he's still with the team - but then it's early yet.

I don't know what RD knew, nor when he knew it, but from a team management perspective, it's irrelevant. It's HIS team to protect. It's not about Alonso as a driver - it's about having a disgruntled employee who appears to be prepared to cause significant damage to the team if his requirements are not met. I accept that it was a possibility that no confrontation took place, however considering everything that has been said, I don't feel it's likely. I don't think Alonso is a demon, and I don't think that RD is completely innocent - F1 is a big money business, and you don't succeed by being nice. And if FA isn't with McL next year, I hope he does get a drive elsewhere - he's talented, and talented drivers are always a pleasure to watch.

This is an intelligent and well substained answer... you may not agree with me but you have your own ideas and for sure all the things you wrote made sense. The problem is when people try to use what they read in the sun and the daily mail to demonstrate FA is evil.

You may be right but the point here for me is that i don't know how could Fernando threatened his boss with some e-mails that basically means he's taking the blame for all this mess. Maybe it' s the way you're saying and this is all about money and about the sponsors (it could be) but with the info i have no way i can agree with those who want to crucify Fernando. Just a couple of days ago FA said that those who believe that such a penalty was just because of his e-mail are stupid and i have to say i agree with him. Not because he's my favorite driver (he is) but because other way this makes no sense at all. I repeat, if the only proof the FIA has is the e-mails, they should appeal and fired FA. If RD is the gentlemen he pretends being honour should be over money :naughty:

Edited by kiko01

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What Mosley HAS said is that the FIA would watch for, and take action against reprisals against Alonso or de la Rosa by the team. As fans, we have no way of knowing whether the FIA gave McLaren a more specific definition of what that means. But the FIA has demonstrated a willingness to meddle inappropriately in what should have been strictly team business (Alonso's grid penalty in Hungary). I am not familiar enough with the sporting regs to say for sure, but I would think that the FIA could have stepped in and reversed the stewards' decision before the race was run.

As for firing the drivers out of hand - two words - sponsorship money. I would think that the presence of Fernando Alonso accounts for a sizeable amount (if not majority) of the sponsorship money received by McLaren (and hence its operating budget). I believe (that means OPINION) that accounts for why FA is still on the team (didn't Vodafone go to McL because of FA? I'm not sure of that, but I did think that was the case) Personally, from a team management point of view, I think FA should have been fired when and if he confronted his boss. And I do believe the confrontation with threats took place because: both Mosely and Dennis acknowledge that a confrontation took place, and while not stating excatly what transpired, make no denial of that widely reported threat (make me number 1, or I go to the FIA) took place. Again, as fans, we will never really know. As far as dlR is concerned - I honestly don't know why he's still with the team - but then it's early yet.

I don't know what RD knew, nor when he knew it, but from a team management perspective, it's irrelevant. It's HIS team to protect. It's not about Alonso as a driver - it's about having a disgruntled employee who appears to be prepared to cause significant damage to the team if his requirements are not met. I accept that it was a possibility that no confrontation took place, however considering everything that has been said, I don't feel it's likely. I don't think Alonso is a demon, and I don't think that RD is completely innocent - F1 is a big money business, and you don't succeed by being nice. And if FA isn't with McL next year, I hope he does get a drive elsewhere - he's talented, and talented drivers are always a pleasure to watch.

:clap3:

Well said

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

More from the WMSC's comedy show! Copying from paragraph 8.8

"In light of the evidence now before it, the WMSC does not accept that the only actions of McLaren deserving censure were those of Coughlan. While this situation might have originated with the actions of a single rogue McLaren employee acting on his own and without McLaren's knowledge or consent, evidence is now available which, when taken in its full context, makes clear that:

...

- Coughlan's role within McLaren (as now understood by the WMSC) put him in a position in which his knowledge of the secret Ferrari information would have influenced him in the performance of his duties".

They could, however, have added a couple of paragraphs more so as to be a little more cinvincing for their decision's reasoning. In fact, they could've used their favourite phrase as well!

Example:

"- It is very unlikely that Raikkonen's role within Ferrari put him in a position in which his knowledge of the secret McLaren information would have influenced him in the performance of his duties".

"- It is very unlikely that Nick Tompazis's role within Ferrari put him in a position in which his knowledge of the secret McLaren information would have influenced him in the performance of his duties".

Should I comment more on this?...

Edited by Sixten

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, I see a difference between "leaving a team and carrying all your knowledge with you" and "stealing knowledge from another team".

No, it does not matter whether McLaren used it in its car or not.

No, it does not matter whether they actively stole the info or rather passively accepted what Nigel, via Mike brought to them.

The mere act of industrial espionage is a crime in itself, besides the advantages McLaren actually obtained from it.

And yes, if the knowledge an employee shares with his new team is confidential data from the old team, he is probably in violation of confidentiality clauses (I have no idea if they have them, but I'm pretty sure something like that must be signed) and therefore a crime.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Well, I see a difference between "leaving a team and carrying all your knowledge with you" and "stealing knowledge from another team".

Who 'stole' the information

:eusa_think:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
No, it does not matter whether they actively stole the info or rather passively accepted what Nigel, via Mike brought to them.

Why didn't you quote the answer to that?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
More from the WMSC's comedy show! Copying from paragraph 8.8

"In light of the evidence now before it, the WMSC does not accept that the only actions of McLaren deserving censure were those of Coughlan. While this situation might have originated with the actions of a single rogue McLaren employee acting on his own and without McLaren's knowledge or consent, evidence is now available which, when taken in its full context, makes clear that:

...

- Coughlan's role within McLaren (as now understood by the WMSC) put him in a position in which his knowledge of the secret Ferrari information would have influenced him in the performance of his duties".

They could, however, have added a couple of paragraphs more so as to be a little more cinvincing for their decision's reasoning. In fact, they could've used their favourite phrase as well!

Example:

"- It is very unlikely that Raikkonen's role within Ferrari put him in a position in which his knowledge of the secret McLaren information would have influenced him in the performance of his duties".

"- It is very unlikely that Nick Tompazis's role within Ferrari put him in a position in which his knowledge of the secret McLaren information would have influenced him in the performance of his duties".

Should I comment more on this?...

Well said pal.

Ferrari even rolled out a statement from Kimi in which he disclosed Mclaren confidential activitity, all be it against his new team.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Who 'stole' the information

:eusa_think:

I have got an idea...wanna ask mr Fry? :eusa_think:

Think at it...Stepney gives Coughlan F2007 drawings then both of them meet Nick Fry at Heathrow...isn't that too strange? BTW Stepney has confessed to italian police he wanted to bring the drawings to Honda together with Coughlan

I think there will be a big surprise when the police will finish the investigation...

Edited by cristiano84

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe I didn't make it clear enough... Please, follow their ratio desidendi:

1. "While this situation might have originated with the actions of a single rogue McLaren employee acting on his own and without McLaren's knowledge or consent"...

(They do realize that!... Again: a. "acting on his own", b. "without McLaren's knowledge or consent"!!!

However, it's McLaren they penalised!!! What a bunch of bucketheads!)

2. "Coughlan's role within McLaren (as now understood by the WMSC) put him in a position in which his knowledge of the secret Ferrari information would have influenced him in the performance of his duties".

Yes, I do accept that Coughlan 'stole' - 'was given' is more proper I think; he didn't break into Ferrari's headquarters to actually 'steal' it - that information, but - as stated above - "without McLaren's knowledge" of where his 'knowledge' or 'influence' might come from). And definitely without McLaren's consent, as the WMSC accepts. Don't forget that as soon as the team discovered Coughlan's source they took all appropriate measures: told him to get rid of the papers, firewalled his communications and finally fired him. However, they didn't told FIA about it... What any of you (us) would have done in a similar situation? Run to the FIA first thing in the morning?...

Again, what the WMSC condemned in the end is Coughlan's influence in the performance of his duties! This is the final part of it all! This is the result of all his previous incriminating actions! His knowledge that have influenced him in the performance of his duties (again: without McLaren's knowledge or consent) might (or might not) have helped McLaren to gain in position, harmed Ferrari, etc, etc... This is what McLaren lost their championship points for and ordered to pay such a ridiculous sum... This and a series of 'intentions' and 'very unlikely' kind of assumptions...

Come on guys... It doesn't take the brains of Einstein to realize that the whole farce is based (as stated again) on assumptions... They (Ferrari in total co-operation with the WMSC) just wanted McLaren out! Just like that! They penalised the team instead of penalising Stepney, Coughlan, Alonso and De La Rosa (the latter two merely on 'intentions' though)...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Well said pal.

Ferrari even rolled out a statement from Kimi in which he disclosed Mclaren confidential activitity, all be it against his new team.

And a few months ago Mika Salo (a Ferrari test driver then) also stated that Ferrari kept on listening to McLaren's radio. He stated that every now and then they had lots of pages of Hakkinen's conversations with his engineers.

Moreover, Jean Todt himself accepted that 'hacking other teams' radio is a common practice for them! However, it seems that such 'practices' are 'very unlikely' to favour Ferrari, thus they remain unpunished...

Enough said...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Maybe I didn't make it clear enough... Please, follow their ratio desidendi:

It's "ratio decidendi". Just FYI, don't mean to sound pedantic, I was just forced to study Latin for 5 years (and it was awful!) and I happen to know that. I wish they taught me English, instead. As you can see, my English is not as good as my Latin :lol: (yes, yes, somebody will say "your English is just fine" but it's not!)

1. "While this situation might have originated with the actions of a single rogue McLaren employee acting on his own and without McLaren's knowledge or consent"...

(They do realize that!... Again: a. "acting on his own", b. "without McLaren's knowledge or consent"!!!

However, it's McLaren they penalised!!! What a bunch of bucketheads!)

2. "Coughlan's role within McLaren (as now understood by the WMSC) put him in a position in which his knowledge of the secret Ferrari information would have influenced him in the performance of his duties".

Yes, I do accept that Coughlan 'stole' - 'was given' is more proper I think; he didn't break into Ferrari's headquarters to actually 'steal' it - that information, but - as stated above - "without McLaren's knowledge" of where his 'knowledge' or 'influence' might come from). And definitely without McLaren's consent, as the WMSC accepts. Don't forget that as soon as the team discovered Coughlan's source they took all appropriate measures: told him to get rid of the papers, firewalled his communications and finally fired him. However, they didn't told FIA about it... What any of you (us) would have done in a similar situation? Run to the FIA first thing in the morning?...

Again, what the WMSC condemned in the end is Coughlan's influence in the performance of his duties! This is the final part of it all! This is the result of all his previous incriminating actions! His knowledge that have influenced him in the performance of his duties (again: without McLaren's knowledge or consent) might (or might not) have helped McLaren to gain in position, harmed Ferrari, etc, etc... This is what McLaren lost their championship points for and ordered to pay such a ridiculous sum... This and a series of 'intentions' and 'very unlikely' kind of assumptions...

Come on guys... It doesn't take the brains of Einstein to realize that the whole farce is based (as stated again) on assumptions... They (Ferrari in total co-operation with the WMSC) just wanted McLaren out! Just like that! They penalised the team instead of penalising Stepney, Coughlan, Alonso and De La Rosa (the latter two merely on 'intentions' though)...

"Was given" is more appropiate, I accept that. But being given (and accepting) stolen goods is still a crime, unless you are a bonafide victim, which in this case Coughlan was not, for he knew perfectly that those documents were stolen.

I also accept that FIA's sudden interest in the sport's fair play is a first in its whole history. Ditto for Ferrari, and Todt, and Montezemolo, and Mosley, and Briatore and...and...but that is irrelevant. Either you infringed the rules or you didn't. No matter if everybody else did it, too. That won't exonerate you of any blame.

What FIA means when talking about Coughlan is that there is no way that he could "forget" all the info in the documents and act as if they never existed. Any decision he made after reading those documents was inevitably influenced by them. If you play hide'n seek with your friends and you happen to know where is one of them hidden, your actions will not be the same as if you ignored where they all hid. Is that simple.

FIA's decision is awful, I give you that, too. It gets worse as days pass and new info is unveiled. They fail to be consistent with their rulings, Mosley's comments are slowly convincing me that this was indeed a manhunt for Dennis, the drivers should have been punished, and many, many other things.

However, once again, FIA's ruling and McLaren's culpability are two independent issues. You can't use one to argue against the other.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
yes, yes, somebody will say "your English is just fine" but it's not!

I'm waiting.... nope.... no one has said it yet... :P

"Was given" is more appropiate, I accept that. But being given (and accepting) stolen goods is still a crime, unless you are a bonafide victim, which in this case Coughlan was not, for he knew perfectly that those documents were stolen.

You mean bona fide? Nah I'm only kidding here. Your linguistic ability is terrific. What does ratio decidendi mean anyway? "Spoken reasoning"?

PS Do you always pronounce the letter c as a hard c in Latin (like a k in English)? I guess that would make it easier to remember how to spell it.

Edited by Murray Walker

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Quiet One

Excuse my Latin :) ! Although I was also forced to study Latin for 3 years in high school, it seems I didn't study hard enough!!!

I won't disagree with any of your statements. However, it is 'McLaren's culpability' that I am not convinced about... And reading the media all over the Internet it seems that I am not the only one... Many people have a very strong feeling that there was no evidence at all...

Reading on Planet-F1's Belgian GP Winners and Losers by AD:

"Mosley's Saturday appearance was the FIA president at his worst. The revelation that it was Ron Dennis himself who had tipped off the FIA about driver e.mails was too much for Max to bear. He couldn't have Dennis gaining the upper hand in the PR battle after the FIA had received a good shoeing from the world's media for the incredible treatment they'd meted out to McLaren.

On Thursday the FIA had singularly failed to find any hard evidence against Mclaren and he gathered a cabale of pressmen to shoot from the lip, talking about the 323 SMS calls that all couldn't all be about Coughlan and Stepney going off to join Honda.

One of his good lines was "once we get this culture of cheating in the sport" as though they had actually proven something. And that it hadn't gone for the last 57 years. They couldn't prove anything, other than there had been a whole lot more communication than Coughlan and McLaren had previously admitted to"...

Edited by Sixten

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
... you may not agree with me but you have your own ideas and for sure

Well said - but that's the fun of being a fan - we all get our own opinions, beat each other over the head with them, and hopefully, laugh about it. The wonderful thing about the internet is that I get to meet fans from all over the world. The awful thing about the internet is being able to meet fans from all over the world, and never having the chance to meet face to face over drinks (and since we can see each other, know that despite the occasional harsh words, there are no hard feelings), F1, and some laughs!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Well said - but that's the fun of being a fan - we all get our own opinions, beat each other over the head with them, and hopefully, laugh about it. The wonderful thing about the internet is that I get to meet fans from all over the world. The awful thing about the internet is being able to meet fans from all over the world, and never having the chance to meet face to face over drinks (and since we can see each other, know that despite the occasional harsh words, there are no hard feelings), F1, and some laughs!

:beer22:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
@Quiet One

Excuse my Latin :) ! Although I was also forced to study Latin for 3 years in high school, it seems I didn't study hard enough!!!

I won't disagree with any of your statements. However, it is 'McLaren's culpability' that I am not convinced about... And reading the media all over the Internet it seems that I am not the only one... Many people have a very strong feeling that there was no evidence at all...

Reading on Planet-F1's Belgian GP Winners and Losers by AD:

"Mosley's Saturday appearance was the FIA president at his worst. The revelation that it was Ron Dennis himself who had tipped off the FIA about driver e.mails was too much for Max to bear. He couldn't have Dennis gaining the upper hand in the PR battle after the FIA had received a good shoeing from the world's media for the incredible treatment they'd meted out to McLaren.

On Thursday the FIA had singularly failed to find any hard evidence against Mclaren and he gathered a cabale of pressmen to shoot from the lip, talking about the 323 SMS calls that all couldn't all be about Coughlan and Stepney going off to join Honda.

One of his good lines was "once we get this culture of cheating in the sport" as though they had actually proven something. And that it hadn't gone for the last 57 years. They couldn't prove anything, other than there had been a whole lot more communication than Coughlan and McLaren had previously admitted to"...

No problem about the Latin thing ;) (and yes, Muzza, I meant "Bona Fide", poetic justice, I guess...but it was a typo, just for the record :lol: )

Yes, I've seen many sites saying things along those lines. I would suggest you to read any other F1 site except Planet F1, they are the worst! :lol: I read them because sometimes they are really funny, but since all this started they became the most partisan site on the net.

I know I won't convince you. I am not convinced at all myself that RD or McLaren as a team acted with any evil intent. But I find it funny that most sites that attack the FIA saying that they acted on mere assumptions go on to attack Nando, Pedro or Mosley (in the British sites) or Lewis, Ron and Mosley again (in the case of Spanish sites) based on assumptions, too.

Thinking that Nando tried to harm Ron on purpose is acting on assumptions. Thinking that Ron didn't know anything about this is acting on assumptions.

This is all about assumptions. You pick yours, I'll pick mine. Then we get to fight each other to death! :fisticufs:

@Murray: "Ratio Decidendi" means "reasons to decide"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I have got an idea...wanna ask mr Fry? :eusa_think:

Think at it...Stepney gives Coughlan F2007 drawings then both of them meet Nick Fry at Heathrow...isn't that too strange? BTW Stepney has confessed to italian police he wanted to bring the drawings to Honda together with Coughlan

I think there will be a big surprise when the police will finish the investigation...

Nick Fry should have destroyed the evidence months ago.

In addition, I believe it won't work because there is a new rule implied in F1/FIA i.e. "F1 teams are free to send their dossiers to any other teams without any punishment." :clap3:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Interesting article

This is from BBC5 radio - interesting once you get past the rather inflammatory title.

Two things...

1) FA has said it's not true he threatened RD with blackmailing the e-mails but anyhow this article is the best i've read by far in the press regarding this issue. Not a surprise coming from the BBC have to say though. Whoever wrote this article shows empathy, no hate wich is what i see in the not serious british and spanish press. Have to say too that some journalists in spain are fair enough to reckon LH is a hell of a racer and FA has a certain tendence to belive himself "a prima donna"

2) I got really sad when i went to a forum where people was discussing the news... Mate, the ones you can read in the spanish websites make me feel ashamed of being spanish. Don't know how the spanish websites allow the people to write the things they write with no censure. As i said... What a diference, don't have any problem in reckon that my country has a lot to learn from british people in terms of politeness and general knowledge about F1.

Go the BBC, The Beatles, Liverpool FC and the Queen Elizabeth :clap3:

Edited by kiko01

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I won't disagree with any of your statements. However, it is 'McLaren's culpability' that I am not convinced about... And reading the media all over the Internet it seems that I am not the only one... Many people have a very strong feeling that there was no evidence at all...

Is it the reason why RD is not appealing?

On Thursday the FIA had singularly failed to find any hard evidence against Mclaren and he gathered a cabale of pressmen to shoot from the lip, talking about the 323 SMS calls that all couldn't all be about Coughlan and Stepney going off to join Honda.

Or is it this one?

Edited by AleHop

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now