la force supreme des mclaren

Mclaren Fined $100million.........

494 posts in this topic


Thanx for the welcome, ecapdeville!...
I hope you can understand and excuse me...
But, as Andrew Davies writes on planet-f1.com:

..."McLaren have been banned from the Constructors' Championship and fined $100 million. Italian football club AC Milan was involved in the 2005-2006 match-fixing scandal. They were made to play one game behind closed doors and still played in the following year's Champion's League."...

That's upsetting!... Like I said 'a la Italiano' fix of the championship...

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Thanx for the welcome, ecapdeville!...

I hope you can understand and excuse me...

But, as Andrew Davies writes on planet-f1.com:

..."McLaren have been banned from the Constructors' Championship and fined $100 million. Italian football club AC Milan was involved in the 2005-2006 match-fixing scandal. They were made to play one game behind closed doors and still played in the following year's Champion's League."...

That's upsetting!... Like I said 'a la Italiano' fix of the championship...

This is ridiculous...

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There has been no evidence of McLaren racing an illegal car at any time. The only car that has been categorically shown to be illegal this year is the Ferrari in the first 2 races. No penalty.

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There has been no evidence of McLaren racing an illegal car at any time. The only car that has been categorically shown to be illegal this year is the Ferrari in the first 2 races. No penalty.

It was deemed illegal.Till then it was legal.Like the mass dampers last year(if you had been watching F1 last year).Was Renault penalised?

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I wonder how all you proclaimed "experts" comment with such ease!FIA is not a court of law and you better await for the criminal prosecutions to find out when the trial will be held in public. You are (plural) so much over your head, you can't even realise Mclaren are the cheaters and got PUNISHED. Does anyone question the fact they had the documents?Did they use them?Well FIA sure appears to think so.Therefore they cheated Ferrari and their own fans.

Have you ever been remotely close to a procedure of this nature?You think FIA used the internet to gather evidence like you and the others here do?

If you really think so, I believe you should start dealing with simpler things or go to the "kittens" thread or something.

I never said I'm an 'expert', tifosi too!

See that funny little character at the end of the line? It is called a 'questionmark'... So, it means that I am asking questions... Questions, my friend!...

It's you (and FIA, of course) who characterize a whole team 'cheaters'! Like you wrote: 'FIA sure appears to think so'... Think? They should be sure, for $100m and a championship!!! So, let's just wait and see what the proofs are and then we might also think something...

Enough said...

Now, I'm going back to the "kittens" thread and post on the topic "How a kitten can steal Ferrari's technical data, use them in the "kitten's car" (which might have a totally different setup, aero, etc, etc, but still can apply those data!) not use the flexy floor and still beat them on home soil and get the drivers championship"...

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It was deemed illegal.Till then it was legal.Like the mass dampers last year(if you had been watching F1 last year).Was Renault penalised?

What was deemed illegal? McLaren? I don't know where you read this but I haven't seen anything to that effect from the FIA. They ruled the behavior of the team was illegal but not the car. Pity the cheating red team can't make a similar statement, but I guess they don't have to when the FIA is in their pocket.

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I never said I'm an 'expert', tifosi too!

See that funny little character at the end of the line? It is called a 'questionmark'... So, it means that I am asking questions... Questions, my friend!...

It's you (and FIA, of course) who characterize a whole team 'cheaters'! Like you wrote: 'FIA sure appears to think so'... Think? They should be sure, for $100m and a championship!!! So, let's just wait and see what the proofs are and then we might also think something...

Enough said...

Now, I'm going back to the "kittens" thread and post on the topic "How a kitten can steal Ferrari's technical data, use them in the "kitten's car" (which might have a totally different setup, aero, etc, etc, but still can apply those data!) not use the flexy floor and still beat them on home soil and get the drivers championship"...

"I wonder what the so-called 'proofs' are (if any)...

And how do Stepney and Coughlan get away with this??? They were the main cause of the whole thing!!! How do they remain unpunished???

And if McLaren gets such a penalty on behalf of one of their personel, why don't punish Ferrari as well? After all, it was Stepney who started it all...

Ah, yes! That was Ferrari's best set-up ever!!!

Congratulations, you champions! Well done! Bravo! A fair and well-deserved glory! You prancing donkeys!..."

So you just wondering here and not making any statements?Are you sure?

FIA seems to think so, means FIA believe that is the case!I 'll take it English is not your first language, but nether is mine so...

So Mclaren doesn't deny the possesion of the documents, but you do!Those data could/can help in so many ways you can't even imagine or thought hard enough.Till then...

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Stewart 'shocked' by FIA ruling

Thursday, 13, September, 2007, 20:27

Three-time world champion Sir Jackie Stewart has expressed disbelief at the severity of the penalty handed to McLaren at Thursday

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FIA are bloody cowards. I was hoping for a total ban. both team and drivers then we'll see what will happen to F1. If the evidence was solely based on the drivers emails (as comfirmed by Ron), why not disqualify the drivers as well. Disqualify the whole team. They cannot. F1 needs Mclaren. even when we are not winning people still love us. and for ferrari, weve beaten you on the track with your own work in your backyard so go ahead and win the championship but we all know who the real champion is.

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What was deemed illegal? McLaren? I don't know where you read this but I haven't seen anything to that effect from the FIA. They ruled the behavior of the team was illegal but not the car. Pity the cheating red team can't make a similar statement, but I guess they don't have to when the FIA is in their pocket.

I wa sanswering your post so the answer i gave was reffering to it.I was talking about the "flexi floor".So what is your problem specifically?You believe that based on the current evidence Mclaren was too severely punished in order to favour Ferrari?If you have seen the evidence let us all know!We are waiting...

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There is no point on judging on the harshness of this sentence until the full truth comes out. Speculation is pointless. Either way, it is a bitter blow to the last remaining portion of Formula One that was still regarded as a sport. How Ferrari will take joy in their inheritance of the 2007 WCC, only they will know. They have lost sight of what they are involved in.

It leaves a very bad taste in my mouth, as i'm sure it does for many. Only the staunchest and hard nosed tifosi will take joy in this outcome. To gloat is to totally lose sight of what we are all here for.

I cannot fathom how it has been deemed that Mclaren have made use of the Ferrari documents to good effect and to their own advantage. If that hasn't been proven today then the punishment is a farce.

The evidence had better be good or the FIA have got trouble on their hands. Damning the most professional outfit in F1 makes me feel uneasy. Indy '05 was nothing compared to this.

Agreed. A sensible view of things.

But as usual the FIA had the oppurtunity to end this whole affair but they have left the door open !!

Instead of putting an end to it now -if the evidence is there punish Mclaren now - but why leave the door open for further punishment for next season !!

IF McLaren were going to use Ferrari designs (and as yet no-one has confirmed this to be the case) on their car what use are they really going to be next year ??

I cannot comment on the severity of the punishment until I know all the facts.. but I doubt we will ever know all the facts....

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More from Autosport...

Mercedes 'shocked' by FIA verdict

Thursday, September 13th 2007, 19:03 GMT

Mercedes motorsport head Norbert Haug has said the FIA decision to penalise McLaren has come as "an extreme shock" to the team.

The British squad have been kicked out of the 2007 constructors' championship race and fined a record $100 million in the spying controversy involving leaked information from Ferrari.

McLaren partners Mercedes voiced their surprise at the verdict and suggested they would appeal the verdict.

"This judgment comes as an extreme shock for all team members and, as demonstrated by the reactions of large parts of the public, the media and Formula One viewers, is a shock for large segments of the public as well," said Haug.

"We will now fight with all our resolve in order to give a proper response on the circuit, as we last did in Monza, and to get justice before the court."

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Can some members (ok im thinking of only a couple here) note that instead of starting a new thread with this information, i just posted it here - because it is related, no need to start a new thread everytime a new story comes out...

space.gif

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Well hopefully we will get more clarity soon on the exact nature of the documents that were incriminating.

Should be out on friday morning. We will then hopefully have a better understanding of the evidence against Mclaren.

I still wonder why Alonso was not at the hearing today, still seems strange.

Wasn't it last week that FIA said that if the drivers supply them with the info that they want they will effectively get amnesty.

Is that why the drivers were not punished perhaps???

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I'd like to know what evidence was presented today before I pass judgement on the decision.

I'm the same - It's all too easy to rant and rave about something we are yet to know the full details on. The details will imerge in the next 24 hours or so. Everybody chill until then and when everything is a little clearer make a informed decision on the penalty handed out by the FIA.

True, true. Super Aguri is the exchange student and Honda is the girl who got knocked up.

Ah, I'm sending "e-face punches" to all McLaren detractors. How fun was Indianapolis when only Ferrari, Minardi and some other team (sorry) ran the race? That's what would happen if some wishes expressed in this forum came true.

Jordan - Toyota is the team your trying to think of :)

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Well hopefully we will get more clarity soon on the exact nature of the documents that were incriminating.

Should be out on friday morning. We will then hopefully have a better understanding of the evidence against Mclaren.

I still wonder why Alonso was not at the hearing today, still seems strange.

Wasn't it last week that FIA said that if the drivers supply them with the info that they want they will effectively get amnesty.

Is that why the drivers were not punished perhaps???

As someone said in the thread, Damage Limitation by Mclaren

Yes as ecap i beleive has posted it from the WMSC descision that the drivers get immunity...

TBH FIA will/can't give out the full thruth tommorrow simply because they are dealing with confidential data, it would be pointless if they said Ferrari copied Mclarens gearbox in this way and its suspension in that way, So Tommorrows report IMO won't give a lot of details....

The drivers should be punished but since they gave infomation about it to WMSC they should be immune and thus i feel it is quite fair from the drivers point of view...

100m is a lot of mney to anyone in any industry no matter how rich he is...

This case will definatly go on APPEAL and we will be discussing it all winter.... Hey atleast its something to talk about....

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As someone said in the thread, Damage Limitation by Mclaren

Yes as ecap i beleive has posted it from the WMSC descision that the drivers get immunity...

TBH FIA will/can't give out the full thruth tommorrow simply because they are dealing with confidential data, it would be pointless if they said Ferrari copied Mclarens gearbox in this way and its suspension in that way, So Tommorrows report IMO won't give a lot of details....

The drivers should be punished but since they gave infomation about it to WMSC they should be immune and thus i feel it is quite fair from the drivers point of view...

100m is a lot of mney to anyone in any industry no matter how rich he is...

This case will definatly go on APPEAL and we will be discussing it all winter.... Hey atleast its something to talk about....

If McLaren and Mercedes Benz think there is a chance of them losing less face and have a glimer of hope in what they will be apealing, then yes they will appeal.

Another point I would like to raise here is what the implications are with some of the McLaren sponsors. I can only speculate to what exactly is written into their contracts now McLaren are ineligible for Constructors points.

Many sponsorship deals could one, be in breach with this happening, and two most sponsorship contracts are written and paid on a point per dollar / pound / Euro basis? The sponsor

Edited by aussief1

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If McLaren and Mercedes Benz think there is a chance of them losing less face and have a glimer of hope in what they will be apealing, then yes they will appeal.

Another point I would like to raise here is what the implications are with some of the McLaren sponsors. I can only speculate to what exactly is written into their contracts now McLaren are ineligible for Constructors points.

Many sponsorship deals could one, be in breach with this happening, and two most sponsorship contracts are written and paid on a point per dollar / pound / Euro basis? The sponsor's hunters from all other teams will be doing their best at the moment to convince the McLaren marquee sponsors to change teams and not have their brand associated with this debacle.

I wish we were talking about something a little more positive for the sport*.

*I use the word "sport" loosely at this point in time :(

I agree they will most likely appeal, unsuccessfully in my opinion. There may be sposorship issues, but then again any publicity is good publicity - esp when Mclaren are being portrayed, rightly or wrongly, as a little victimised.

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If McLaren and Mercedes Benz think there is a chance of them losing less face and have a glimer of hope in what they will be apealing, then yes they will appeal.

Another point I would like to raise here is what the implications are with some of the McLaren sponsors. I can only speculate to what exactly is written into their contracts now McLaren are ineligible for Constructors points.

Many sponsorship deals could one, be in breach with this happening, and two most sponsorship contracts are written and paid on a point per dollar / pound / Euro basis? The sponsor

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TBH FIA will/can't give out the full thruth tommorrow simply because they are dealing with confidential data, it would be pointless if they said Ferrari copied Mclarens gearbox in this way and its suspension in that way, So Tommorrows report IMO won't give a lot of details....

I'm not 100% sure, but I think it will be published for all to see AJ :eusa_think:

What is your next course of action?

Martin Whitmarsh:"We believe we have got the grounds for an appeal, but of course we are going to wait for the findings of the FIA, which we believe are going to be published tomorrow, and will consider those carefully before we make that decision.

Source: www.mclaren.com

Edited by aussief1

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I will await forming an opinion on the verdict until after I have read the FIA reasoning. I doubt Mclaren will appeal because they'll face worse consequences.

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FIA are ridiculous. The facts are:

1)After so many rumours in the end there is still no FACTUAL PROOF of McLaren using Ferrari's secrets, so the punishment absolutely doesn't fit the crime. If there was FACTUAL PROOF of cheating exclusion would have been certain and undeniable But this sentence does keep Todt and Ferrari happy, without ruining too much the sport's image

2)How can you declare a car illegal and then not punish the drivers? Just wondering what would have happened if Pedro De La Rosa was driving instead of Hamilton...The drivers would certainly have been punished too

3)Toyota was caught in the act of spying Ferrari in late 2003 with two guys charged by law with industrial espionage and arrested. Spyker boss Colin Kolles was found in possession of Red Bull-Toro Rosso drawings, in both cases the FIA did NOTHING. With McLaren still no proof has been colleceted by the authorities here in Italy, despite some claims by the press who have been denied. Toyota and Spyker were not fighting Ferrari for the title anyway

4)Leaking secret FIA information into the media is in the breach of the now famous art.151 of the sporting code (bringing the sport into disrepute). Ferrari blatantly did it with the italian media. But being Ferrari this is obviously not going into investigation

5)Toyota and Honda confirmed contacts with both Coughlan and Stepney in June. Stepney has vconfessed he intended to bring the drawings with him at either Honda or Toyota along with Coughlan. Again no investigation has been made within Honda or Toyota. Why?

PS Congratulations to Jean Todt and Max Mosley (I consider him a part of the team) for their well deserved WCC victory. Goodnight to everyone. The sport has died once again thank you FIArrari. Just hoping Stepney will talk and reveal what he menaced to reveal so some heads will roll down in Paris.

Edited by cristiano84

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