la force supreme des mclaren

Mclaren Fined $100million.........

494 posts in this topic

It is hard to comment on the punishment without knowing the crime.

Someone else mentioned Toyota was involved in a worse case then this and escaped punishment.

Moldy old men have decided this years WCC, and have ignored the fact that allowing FA, and LH to drive without penalty is very confusing and inconsistant. The ruling is unfair, and manufactured soley for the benefit of one team. FA and LH are only allowed to compete because without them F1 is an absolute joke, so in order to save thier own asses(FIA) the drivers have been allowed to compete.

In other words, truth and justice are only important if we don't loose any money.

If I was Mclaren I would respectfully decline to race any more. Pull Alonso and Hamilton out, and let the FIA swim in their own cesspool of filth. Please do not tell me this is the pinnacle of motor racing. I think this combined with the Mclaren pit scandal ruling should place the entire sport under the magnifying glass of a gaming commision. Maybe the results have always been more controlled then we like to think.

I think I am tired of F1 and all its silly drama. I finally bother to start watching again, and now this crap. I grow weary.

Edited by YHR

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:mf_tongue:

A ridiculous verdict!

So, F. Alonso and L. Hamilton are allowed to race in an illegal car???

One of them might also become World Campion! Racing an illegal car???

Kings of stupidity!

I am eager to read the full hearing transcript... In case it will not be publicized in whole nobody will trust FIA or the WMSC (not that we do now)...

I wonder what the so-called 'proofs' are (if any)...

And how do Stepney and Coughlan get away with this??? They were the main cause of the whole thing!!! How do they remain unpunished???

And if McLaren gets such a penalty on behalf of one of their personel, why don't punish Ferrari as well? After all, it was Stepney who started it all...

Ah, yes! That was Ferrari's best set-up ever!!!

Congratulations, you champions! Well done! Bravo! A fair and well-deserved glory! You prancing donkeys!...

Championship a la Italiano!

I will come back later... I'm too furious to go on right now...

Very good post there. I couldn't have said it better if I tried.

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Merc will try to decrease the sentence as they say it is too harsh, so thus the appeal...

Vodafone chose a wrong season to switch from Ferrari....

Yeah me too, i wish it was this active just because we were going into SPA, but as they say bad news travels faster than good news, thus discussion on bad news are more.... But in my eyes F1 is still a sport, all sports have their controversies and legal cases, F1 is no exception

Same here AJ - It's still a sport to us all the die hards. I fear it's perception to the general public who don't fully understand the inner workings of our sport.

I will await forming an opinion on the verdict until after I have read the FIA reasoning. I doubt Mclaren will appeal because they'll face worse consequences.

I wish more people here would do as we have done Kay and not jump off the deep end before the facts are presented.

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Will all the details be available to the public?

As I said before, I'm not 100% sure but I think they will :eusa_think:

I guess we will find out for sure within the next 24 hours :)

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It is hard to comment on the punishment without knowing the crime.

Someone else mentioned Toyota was involved in a worse case then this and escaped punishment.

Moldy old men have decided this years WCC, and have ignored the fact that allowing FA, and LH to drive without penalty is very confusing and inconsistant. The ruling is unfair, and manufactured soley for the benefit of one team. FA and LH are only allowed to compete because without them F1 is an absolute joke, so in order to save thier own asses(FIA) the drivers have been allowed to compete.

In other words, truth and justice are only important if we don't loose any money.

If I was Mclaren I would respectfully decline to race any more. Pull Alonso and Hamilton out, and let the FIA swim in their own cesspool of filth. Please do not tell me this is the pinnacle of motor racing. I think this combined with the Mclaren pit scandal ruling should place the entire sport under the magnifying glass of a gaming commision. Maybe the results have always been more controlled then we like to think.

I think I am tired of F1 and all its silly drama. I finally bother to start watching again, and now this crap. I grow weary.

For us with many years watching F1, is no news the is first of all a business, and second, and third, etc. Over the years I saw FIA vs. FOCA and many other "stars wars": turbo powered team vs. normaly aspirated; english teams vs. Jean Marie Balestre ( a FIA vs. FOCA second chapter) and many WDC And WCC manipulated and won on the FIA

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Same here AJ - It's still a sport to us all the die hards. I fear it's perception to the general public who don't fully understand the inner workings of our sport.

I wish more people here would do as we have done Kay and not jump off the deep end before the facts are presented.

In the contrary i think viewership may increase due to this....

Any publicity is good publicity....

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In the contrary i think viewership may increase due to this....

Any publicity is good publicity....

I disagree! The show is now blurred as one cannot tell whether The Mclaren is fast because of the driver or because of the team's alleged cheating - It's the same in Athletics and Cycling where the public cannot reliably trust the integrity of the competition.

The FIA should have disqualified the Team, Car & drivers as all are effectively one and the same.

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Yeah I see what you mean, Fed Up, about the WDC being blurred - but it always is, and so otherwise I agree with Ankit on this. LH and FA are mainly doing well thanks to a car advantage anyway, so it probably doesn't matter to most people why the car was superior. The real problem as far as the public is concerned is that we are never sure why one driver beats another. To my mind, athletics and cycling are very different. There is more reason to penalise the individuals there because (1) the individuals can reasonably be expected to know what chemicals they are taking but Lewis and Fernando can not necessarily know everything that happens in McLaren and; (2) those sports do much better at providing a level playing field (before any cheating occurs) than F1.

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In the contrary i think viewership may increase due to this....

Any publicity is good publicity....

I hope your right AJ :D

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FIA is always fair.

Both Ferrari and McLaren team members made the mistakes and ONLY McLaren got penalised and handed the constructor championship to Ferrari although they are marred by reliability.

Well done FIA and Ferrari. :clap3::clap3::clap3:

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FIA is always fair.

Both Ferrari and McLaren team members made the mistakes and ONLY McLaren got penalised and handed the constructor championship to Ferrari although they are marred by reliability.

Well done FIA and Ferrari. :clap3::clap3::clap3:

Except Ferrari didn't have or use any McLaren secrets or have any McLaren documents.

Oh how fair.

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It is hard to comment on the punishment without knowing the crime.

Someone else mentioned Toyota was involved in a worse case then this and escaped punishment.

Moldy old men have decided this years WCC, and have ignored the fact that allowing FA, and LH to drive without penalty is very confusing and inconsistant. The ruling is unfair, and manufactured soley for the benefit of one team. FA and LH are only allowed to compete because without them F1 is an absolute joke, so in order to save thier own asses(FIA) the drivers have been allowed to compete.

In other words, truth and justice are only important if we don't loose any money.

If I was Mclaren I would respectfully decline to race any more. Pull Alonso and Hamilton out, and let the FIA swim in their own cesspool of filth. Please do not tell me this is the pinnacle of motor racing. I think this combined with the Mclaren pit scandal ruling should place the entire sport under the magnifying glass of a gaming commision. Maybe the results have always been more controlled then we like to think.

I think I am tired of F1 and all its silly drama. I finally bother to start watching again, and now this crap. I grow weary.

Thanks YHR, a post I can fully agree with.

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Thanks YHR, a post I can fully agree with.

I agree with YHR too, and I think F1 cannot possibly be the considered the pinnacle of motor sport. Maybe the pinnacle of soap opera.

By the way has anyone thought that Mclaren clearly could not have been using any of the Ferrari information 'cause if they had been, then the Mclaren car would be as slow as the Ferrari. Why would any team with a car as fast as the Mclaren want to copy a car as slow as the Ferrari! :lol::clap3:

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I agree with YHR too, and I think F1 cannot possibly be the considered the pinnacle of motor sport. Maybe the pinnacle of soap opera.

By the way has anyone thought that Mclaren clearly could not have been using any of the Ferrari information 'cause if they had been, then the Mclaren car would be as slow as the Ferrari. Why would any team with a car as fast as the Mclaren want to copy a car as slow as the Ferrari! :lol::clap3:

You didn't watch Australia, did you?

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I wonder what Senna, Bajo, Nojvnof1 and other now gone posters would say about this... <_<

by the way wheres Puma???

Probably something more interesting than the knee jerk reactions I've seen so far.

As for Mike, I'm sure he'll be along later.

AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Too much pressure, Mike???

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Too much pressure, Mike???

Look out ... He's going to blow! :wacko:

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This is one big shell game and, when you finally lift all the shells, you will find.....

....nothing.

There are two issues going on at the moment that are getting blurred together.

1. Did McLaren use any part designed or owned by Ferrari on it's '07 car? Merely possessing the plans to said part is not a breach of the F1 Technical Regulations (or is that article in the Sporting Regulations? I'll leave it to the intrepid among you to research that). McLaren provided initial designs of their car as well as designs that were developed and used on the car during the season. There was no proof whatsoever that McLaren had ran any Ferrari-owned part on it's cars. This one is laid to rest. This is why McLaren came away from the WMSC/FIA hearing with no punishment....because they hadn't broken any of the Formula 1 regulations.

2. Did McLaren breach article 151c of the International Sporting Code? Here's the article in question (taken from FIA.com):

c) Any fraudulent conduct or any act prejudicial to the interests of any competition or to the interests of motor sport generally.

So, for this to be the case, it must be shown that McLaren did something fraudulent. For fraud to be committed, one must present an entity as the victim of the fraud. Ferrari? Given the fact that McLaren, by WMSC decision, was cleared of the charge of using Ferrari's designs against Ferrari in a Formula 1 competition, how has Ferrari been impacted? They haven't been. If the new evidence proved that Coughlan had gotten set-up information from Stepney and passed it on to Alonso or Pedro, how exactly is that different from hiring photographers to take a few high res shots of a Williams diffuser? Or of Mikey the Schu looking closely at the McLaren suspension geometry after a race? That set-up knowledge would be useless on the McLaren, but the philosophy behind the Ferrari design could be adapted. How exactly do you copyright a philosophy? Has McLaren been forced to lose actual damages of 30m for an offense equivalent to this? It appears so.

Now the next item is 'any act prejudicial to the interests of any competition or to the interests of motorsport generally'. Hell, the fuel-burn phase of Q3 is prejudicial to the interests of motor sports because it's made F1 a laughingstock in environmental circles. Flavio would be prejudicial to motor sports in the same way every time he lights up an offensive cigarette. This rule is very vague and shouldn't be the basis for a real monetary fine that could seriously impact a business. I say this because McLaren has done nothing prejudical to the interests of competition (remember, they didn't use any of the Ferrari knowledge...and if you think they used the set-up data to be easier on their tyres, I suggest you ask Hammy about Istanbul). In fact, the continual leaks by Ferrari to the press over a situation they suffered no damages from has escalated this whole affair to the point that it has become 'prejudicial to the interests of motor sport generally'. Some of the posts above showing fans' anger and dissatisfaction with F1 tend to prove this.

The final point that some make is the most relevant one. Toyota actually used Ferrari-owned property on their cars and the two involved employees were hit with charges, but the Toyota F1 team was not punished at all. Why is McLaren, another F1 team, getting hammered for the actions of two employees (Coughlan and Alonso or Pedro) while Toyota hasn't?

Edited by Autumnpuma

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@Mike's point that shows far more thought than I've been willing to put into this whole charade:

:clap3:

Well said, sir. May I pour you two fingers of "barely legal" Scotch?

:worshippy:

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@Mike's point that shows far more thought than I've been willing to put into this whole charade:

:clap3:

Well said, sir. May I pour you two fingers of "barely legal" Scotch?

:worshippy:

Hell friggin' yes!!

I'm stating now that this thread is the only one in which the Puma will be appearing on this topic.

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"I wonder what the so-called 'proofs' are (if any)...

And how do Stepney and Coughlan get away with this??? They were the main cause of the whole thing!!! How do they remain unpunished???

And if McLaren gets such a penalty on behalf of one of their personel, why don't punish Ferrari as well? After all, it was Stepney who started it all...

Ah, yes! That was Ferrari's best set-up ever!!!

Congratulations, you champions! Well done! Bravo! A fair and well-deserved glory! You prancing donkeys!..."

So you just wondering here and not making any statements?Are you sure?

FIA seems to think so, means FIA believe that is the case!I 'll take it English is not your first language, but nether is mine so...

So Mclaren doesn't deny the possesion of the documents, but you do!Those data could/can help in so many ways you can't even imagine or thought hard enough.Till then...

No, I am not making any statements, tifosi too!. Stepney's and Coughlan's relationship (going back to Bennetton years) is common knowledge. Based on what we know so far (Coughlan's recent statements, Richards' statements, McLaren's statements, and so on) I am making assumptions and expressing my opinion. But 'making assumptions' is a totally different thing from penalising a team in such a way. To do so someone needs to have facts.

Putting it in another way, we know for sure that Coughlan (Coughlan, not McLaren) had those documents in his hands. We don't know who else saw those documents. At least, nobody accepts anything like this at McLaren. Coughlan stated that he showed those documents to nobody, apart from a brief sketch of Ferrari's flexy floor he drawed and showed to Lowe. So, as you rightly ask yourself, 'did McLaren make use of these documents'? The possession of a gun is a totally different crime from using it to kill someone, and thus it burdens a totally different punishment. So, the WMSC should present the 'body' if the are to justify their decision. Even after the hearing Dennis, Haug, Whitmarsh and other McLaren staff insist that all evidence provided proved that they did not make use of the document's content because they just didn't know it!

As you rightly mention in a previous post, my source is the Internet. I suppose most people's sources in this forum is the Internet. If someone has a different source and thus knows more things than the rest of us, we'd be glad to read it...

Finally, no English is not my first language. I am Greek and in my language the words 'think', 'believe', 'know', 'assume', have totally different and exact meanings.

P.S. I don't want this to get personal in any case. So please consider my writings as simple thoughts of an F1 (and McLaren's since 1978) fan.

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Firstly, there is no consistency in the decision. Punish the team but not the drivers? Well done FIA.

Secondly, if anyone said that Mclaren copied Ferarri entirely, then I ask why then is Mclaren leading WCC? Why are they quicker than the Ferrari in Monza? If you agree with me that Mclaren had benefited very little from the information gained then why disqualify them? Wouldn't points deduction make more sense? It is not as if Mclaren would end up pointless if they didn't get any info about Ferrari.

Lastly, if anyone is actually glad with the outcome they are a disgrace. It is like watching your enemy since high school battling cancer and enjoying every minute of it. I am sure true racing fans would agree with me that winning under this kind of circumstances is completely menaingless. I hope Lewis wont win the WDC.

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Firstly, there is no consistency in the decision. Punish the team but not the drivers? Well done FIA.

It's happened before, so there is consistency.

Brazil 1995 anybody?

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Except Ferrari didn't have or use any McLaren secrets or have any McLaren documents.

Oh how fair.

So far were there any ex-McLaren dirver or employee joint Ferrari?

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