la force supreme des mclaren

Mclaren Fined $100million.........

494 posts in this topic

Does everyone remember the kid at school who spurted so much drivel that it was easier to ignore them than it was to take the p!ss out of them? Not because it was more fun but because it was a waste of time to do anything else; they wouldn't get it anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

no u are horribly wrong. the evidence only applies if its against mclaren. otherwise it doesnt matter. the evidence against the toyota employees were overwhelming (2 of them were imprisoned)

you see here people I think that thats where Nigel and mike should be in prison.

they is the one who started it, NOT McLaren it's only Mike who had the documents in his own home ay so why should McLaren have to suffer so badly?

It should be these two employees that should be thrown away in prison!

Ferrari should be getting the knives out for both of them and not necessarly Just McLaren!

I wonder if they feel guilty for what they done?

I find it funny that McLaren have to suffer for something that Ferrari couldn't fix "in house" so to speak...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

FIA has said they didn't investigate Toyota because NO ONE asked them

The damaged part in this case was again Ferrari but they didn't ask for a punishment....

Coming to McLaren they went on saying they wanted "the truth to come out"

bulls##t

They wanted to win the title no matter how

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This is one big shell game and, when you finally lift all the shells, you will find.....

....nothing.

There are two issues going on at the moment that are getting blurred together.

1. Did McLaren use any part designed or owned by Ferrari on it's '07 car? Merely possessing the plans to said part is not a breach of the F1 Technical Regulations (or is that article in the Sporting Regulations? I'll leave it to the intrepid among you to research that). McLaren provided initial designs of their car as well as designs that were developed and used on the car during the season. There was no proof whatsoever that McLaren had ran any Ferrari-owned part on it's cars. This one is laid to rest. This is why McLaren came away from the WMSC/FIA hearing with no punishment....because they hadn't broken any of the Formula 1 regulations.

2. Did McLaren breach article 151c of the International Sporting Code? Here's the article in question (taken from FIA.com):

So, for this to be the case, it must be shown that McLaren did something fraudulent. For fraud to be committed, one must present an entity as the victim of the fraud. Ferrari? Given the fact that McLaren, by WMSC decision, was cleared of the charge of using Ferrari's designs against Ferrari in a Formula 1 competition, how has Ferrari been impacted? They haven't been. If the new evidence proved that Coughlan had gotten set-up information from Stepney and passed it on to Alonso or Pedro, how exactly is that different from hiring photographers to take a few high res shots of a Williams diffuser? Or of Mikey the Schu looking closely at the McLaren suspension geometry after a race? That set-up knowledge would be useless on the McLaren, but the philosophy behind the Ferrari design could be adapted. How exactly do you copyright a philosophy? Has McLaren been forced to lose actual damages of 30m for an offense equivalent to this? It appears so.

Now the next item is 'any act prejudicial to the interests of any competition or to the interests of motorsport generally'. Hell, the fuel-burn phase of Q3 is prejudicial to the interests of motor sports because it's made F1 a laughingstock in environmental circles. Flavio would be prejudicial to motor sports in the same way every time he lights up an offensive cigarette. This rule is very vague and shouldn't be the basis for a real monetary fine that could seriously impact a business. I say this because McLaren has done nothing prejudical to the interests of competition (remember, they didn't use any of the Ferrari knowledge...and if you think they used the set-up data to be easier on their tyres, I suggest you ask Hammy about Istanbul). In fact, the continual leaks by Ferrari to the press over a situation they suffered no damages from has escalated this whole affair to the point that it has become 'prejudicial to the interests of motor sport generally'. Some of the posts above showing fans' anger and dissatisfaction with F1 tend to prove this.

The final point that some make is the most relevant one. Toyota actually used Ferrari-owned property on their cars and the two involved employees were hit with charges, but the Toyota F1 team was not punished at all. Why is McLaren, another F1 team, getting hammered for the actions of two employees (Coughlan and Alonso or Pedro) while Toyota hasn't?

Mike, you raise some good points, as always. Let me just say, that I pretty much agree with you, but what the hell, I am just playing a bit of devil's advocate! :lol:

You can't really say for point 1 that it is laid to rest because McLaren escaped any punishment by the FIA/WMSC in the hearing and then go on to question if McLaren did actually breach article 151c, because it contradicts your reasoning slightly, if I am reading it correctly. If you accept that there was no evidence of Ferrari information being used, because the FIA/WMSC adjudged it to be so, then surely you have to accept that McLaren breached article 151c because the FIA/WMSC said that they did in the same hearing? The FIA/WMSC did actually state that Coughlan being in possession of the Ferrari dossier breaches 151c. Now, whether a single employee being in posession, should be attributed to the whole team is a different argument altogether, I think.

Also, I think the wording of the FIA from the original hearing is slightly vague. It said (I am just linking to the first one I found from the BBC site, so I hope it is correct) -

However, there is insufficient evidence that this information was used in such a way as to interfere improperly with the FIA Formula One world championship. We therefore impose no penalty
.

That just seems a bit vague to me. Presumably, these sort of press releases are checked, rechecked, etc, etc before being released. Insufficient evidence does not mean no evidence to me, but I accept I may be being a bit pedantic over it. However, I was just checking back over the whole saga and that sort of jumped out at me. Was it intentional, or was it just stupid wording?

Hopefully, though I am not holding my breath, some things may be clearer after the FIA press release today. I am not sure what I want to hear from them really.

Edited by pabloh20

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It's happened before, so there is consistency.

Brazil 1995 anybody?

refresh my memory.. :eusa_think:

FIA has said they didn't investigate Toyota because NO ONE asked them

coz Toyota can't challange ferrari...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I won't comment till I se the FIA report, till then this has been one big circle jerk.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
:mf_tongue:

A ridiculous verdict!

So, F. Alonso and L. Hamilton are allowed to race in an illegal car???

One of them might also become World Campion! Racing an illegal car???

Kings of stupidity!

I am eager to read the full hearing transcript... In case it will not be publicized in whole nobody will trust FIA or the WMSC (not that we do now)...

I wonder what the so-called 'proofs' are (if any)...

And how do Stepney and Coughlan get away with this??? They were the main cause of the whole thing!!! How do they remain unpunished???

And if McLaren gets such a penalty on behalf of one of their personel, why don't punish Ferrari as well? After all, it was Stepney who started it all...

Ah, yes! That was Ferrari's best set-up ever!!!

Congratulations, you champions! Well done! Bravo! A fair and well-deserved glory! You prancing donkeys!...

Championship a la Italiano!

I will come back later... I'm too furious to go on right now...

Agreed!

I asked the same question in an older thread

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This is one big shell game and, when you finally lift all the shells, you will find.....

....nothing.

There are two issues going on at the moment that are getting blurred together.

1. Did McLaren use any part designed or owned by Ferrari on it's '07 car? Merely possessing the plans to said part is not a breach of the F1 Technical Regulations (or is that article in the Sporting Regulations? I'll leave it to the intrepid among you to research that). McLaren provided initial designs of their car as well as designs that were developed and used on the car during the season. There was no proof whatsoever that McLaren had ran any Ferrari-owned part on it's cars. This one is laid to rest. This is why McLaren came away from the WMSC/FIA hearing with no punishment....because they hadn't broken any of the Formula 1 regulations.

2. Did McLaren breach article 151c of the International Sporting Code? Here's the article in question (taken from FIA.com):

So, for this to be the case, it must be shown that McLaren did something fraudulent. For fraud to be committed, one must present an entity as the victim of the fraud. Ferrari? Given the fact that McLaren, by WMSC decision, was cleared of the charge of using Ferrari's designs against Ferrari in a Formula 1 competition, how has Ferrari been impacted? They haven't been. If the new evidence proved that Coughlan had gotten set-up information from Stepney and passed it on to Alonso or Pedro, how exactly is that different from hiring photographers to take a few high res shots of a Williams diffuser? Or of Mikey the Schu looking closely at the McLaren suspension geometry after a race? That set-up knowledge would be useless on the McLaren, but the philosophy behind the Ferrari design could be adapted. How exactly do you copyright a philosophy? Has McLaren been forced to lose actual damages of 30m for an offense equivalent to this? It appears so.

Now the next item is 'any act prejudicial to the interests of any competition or to the interests of motorsport generally'. Hell, the fuel-burn phase of Q3 is prejudicial to the interests of motor sports because it's made F1 a laughingstock in environmental circles. Flavio would be prejudicial to motor sports in the same way every time he lights up an offensive cigarette. This rule is very vague and shouldn't be the basis for a real monetary fine that could seriously impact a business. I say this because McLaren has done nothing prejudical to the interests of competition (remember, they didn't use any of the Ferrari knowledge...and if you think they used the set-up data to be easier on their tyres, I suggest you ask Hammy about Istanbul). In fact, the continual leaks by Ferrari to the press over a situation they suffered no damages from has escalated this whole affair to the point that it has become 'prejudicial to the interests of motor sport generally'. Some of the posts above showing fans' anger and dissatisfaction with F1 tend to prove this.

The final point that some make is the most relevant one. Toyota actually used Ferrari-owned property on their cars and the two involved employees were hit with charges, but the Toyota F1 team was not punished at all. Why is McLaren, another F1 team, getting hammered for the actions of two employees (Coughlan and Alonso or Pedro) while Toyota hasn't?

As usual Mike you make valid points.

As I had mentioned earlier.

I ,personally, will have to read the report before I weigh-in on how justified the ruling is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

News just breaking on 5 Live Sports Extra that is pretty damning on McLaren.

The dossier is out, and there are numerous pieces of evidence and quotes that incriminate McLaren. Exchanges between Coughlan, Alonso and de la Rosa discussing Ferrari setups, weight distribution, tyre pressures, strategies etc.

There was something quoted on the radio to the effect of "The information we have on the Red cars is from a reliable source; it comes from Nigel Stepney, who is the one who tipped us off that Kimi would be stopping on lap 18 in Australia".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

and Alonso & Pedro volunteered the information after hamilton advised that he had nothing to disclose

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
FIA justice has a strange logic of its own. With FIA you get fined first and you get to know why 24 hours later.

:lol:

Sorry, excuse the joviality in a serious thread, but that made me laugh!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
and Alonso & Pedro volunteered the information after hamilton advised that he had nothing to disclose

Ahh come on, Fed Up, you make it sound confrontational. Almost like Hammy resisted the FIA but Alonso & Pedro weren't strong enough! Let's get all the info first.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ahh come on, Fed Up, you make it sound confrontational. Almost like Hammy resisted the FIA but Alonso & Pedro weren't strong enough! Let's get all the info first.

Look mate, it is very obvious what has happened here. The existence of the emails was leaked to the FIA, it is also obvious that Nando and Pedro were the beneficiaries of the Ferrari technical information - Howver, rather than Nando or Pedro being penalised Mclaren get stung heavy -

What do the following nando utterances now mean

1. 6/10ths

2. I dont care for the WCC

3. He didn't attend the hearing

Sorry if you are behind, but the FIA report is being discussed on 5 live

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
News just breaking on 5 Live Sports Extra that is pretty damning on McLaren.

The dossier is out, and there are numerous pieces of evidence and quotes that incriminate McLaren. Exchanges between Coughlan, Alonso and de la Rosa discussing Ferrari setups, weight distribution, tyre pressures, strategies etc.

There was something quoted on the radio to the effect of "The information we have on the Red cars is from a reliable source; it comes from Nigel Stepney, who is the one who tipped us off that Kimi would be stopping on lap 18 in Australia".

Do you have a link, or has anyone else seen this on any other sites as yet??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Look mate, it is very obvious what has happened here. The existence of the emails was leaked to the FIA, it is also obvious that Nando and Pedro were the beneficiaries of the Ferrari technical information - Howver, rather than Nando or Pedro being penalised Mclaren get stung heavy -

What do the following nando utterances now mean

1. 6/10ths

2. I dont care for the WCC

3. He didn't attend the hearing

Sorry if you are behind, but the FIA report is being discussed on 5 live

I heard it, thanks for asking. However, did they not say it was a fairly comprehensive document?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I heard it, thanks for asking. However, did they not say it was a fairly comprehensive document?

The crux of the case centres around the leaked emails and their contents. Mclaren have been penalised for the actions of Coughlan, Nando & Pedro

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The crux of the case centres around the leaked emails and their contents. Mclaren have been penalised for the actions of Coughlan, Nando & Pedro

I heard that bit and example of a couple of emails, but it is impossible to say, from what I heard anyway, that Alonso, De La Rosa and Coughlan were entirely to blame. Personally, I would like to have more information before I would say something like that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Firstly, there is no consistency in the decision. Punish the team but not the drivers? Well done FIA.

Secondly, if anyone said that Mclaren copied Ferarri entirely, then I ask why then is Mclaren leading WCC? Why are they quicker than the Ferrari in Monza? If you agree with me that Mclaren had benefited very little from the information gained then why disqualify them? Wouldn't points deduction make more sense? It is not as if Mclaren would end up pointless if they didn't get any info about Ferrari.

Lastly, if anyone is actually glad with the outcome they are a disgrace. It is like watching your enemy since high school battling cancer and enjoying every minute of it. I am sure true racing fans would agree with me that winning under this kind of circumstances is completely menaingless. I hope Lewis wont win the WDC.

When you decide to copy anything, you always copy the good bits not the bad ones...

When you cheat on a exam do you copy the full exam even if youu think your friend got something wrong?

Mclaren thus technically got 2 research teams....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now