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rodders47

"hamilton - English. Mclaren - English. Alonso - Childish".

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Alonso will never lose my respect as a driver. He is without any doubt the best man on the grid (Raikkonen is not at the same level and Lewis still has a long way to go -see Nurburgring-Shangai-, despite he can surely reach the top level).

But Fernando is losing my respect as a human being. The crap he's saying to the press, the way he is completely unable to accept being beaten, the way he menaced his team in the spy story...

McLaren may be on Hamilton's side but they are a fair team. If not Alonso wouldn't have won at Monza with a huge advantage and also wouldn't have beaten Lewis at Spa fair and square. I seriously hope he's shown the door after Interlagos

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A Sign at the Chinese GP!

TOUCHE :rolleyes:

Actually, it reads like this...

Hamilton and RD and Ecclestone and Whiting and Mosley and McLaren - British.

... but the sign makers were to ashamed to admit it.

Now, do laugh becuase it is truly truly hilarious.

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Alonso will never lose my respect as a driver. He is without any doubt the best man on the grid (Raikkonen is not at the same level and Lewis still has a long way to go -see Nurburgring-Shangai-, despite he can surely reach the top level).

But Fernando is losing my respect as a human being. The crap he's saying to the press, the way he is completely unable to accept being beaten, the way he menaced his team in the spy story...

McLaren may be on Hamilton's side but they are a fair team. If not Alonso wouldn't have won at Monza with a huge advantage and also wouldn't have beaten Lewis at Spa fair and square. I seriously hope he's shown the door after Interlagos

They are soooo fair that they are doing what Alonso could not do several years on his own, they are making people like him. This season we are being fed Hamilton

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I think it's a political statement claiming all Brits whine and cheat.

In all seriousness, the sign does speak the truth. But too call Alonso childish and now Lewis is a little...ehhh...

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McLaren may be on Hamilton's side but they are a fair team. If not Alonso wouldn't have won at Monza with a huge advantage and also wouldn't have beaten Lewis at Spa fair and square. I seriously hope he's shown the door after Interlagos

McLaren did all they could to allow Lewis pass Fernando in the second pit stop, their problem was that Alonso was too fast. You could hear it yesterday. Mclaren's enemy is FA and they are the ones that decide Fernando's strategy... Fernando is unable to accept he's being beaten? Probably but the situation sure doesn't help him to do it. If you don't want to see this you're blind <_<

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I think it's a political statement claiming all Brits whine and cheat.

In all seriousness, the sign does speak the truth. But too call Alonso childish and now Lewis is a little...ehhh...

Yeah man.

It must be a pressure cooker being an F1 driver. An each one reacts to things in his own way. Alonso should have been clear about his status expectations when he was negotiating his McLaren contract. Now we're seeing a mixed reaction of his annoyance with that, plus the pressure of retaining the title, adapting to a new team, dealing with a new car an tyres, and dealing with the likes of a super-quick, media golden boy as a team mate. He needs his own team. There's no place in McLaren for Alonso.

Edit-spelling

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So subtle...

What's Adrian got to do with this?

Yeah a crappy sign really, the one at Spa was better 'Ron want a tenner'? - now that I liked, always best to criticise when someone's at their most vulnerable.

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What's Adrian got to do with this?

Yeah a crappy sign really, the one at Spa was better 'Ron want a tenner'? - now that I liked, always best to criticise when someone's at their most vulnerable.

The one at Hungary was best:

"BERGER ARE TOST ARE DUMB****S" etc. I forget exactly what it said.

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That's just the Brits givin it large to Nando! Could'nt blame them seeing as the rest of the world is givin it large to Hamilton!

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Alonso will never lose my respect as a driver. He is without any doubt the best man on the grid (Raikkonen is not at the same level and Lewis still has a long way to go -see Nurburgring-Shangai-, despite he can surely reach the top level).

But Fernando is losing my respect as a human being. The crap he's saying to the press, the way he is completely unable to accept being beaten, the way he menaced his team in the spy story...

McLaren may be on Hamilton's side but they are a fair team. If not Alonso wouldn't have won at Monza with a huge advantage and also wouldn't have beaten Lewis at Spa fair and square. I seriously hope he's shown the door after Interlagos

Alonso's a fine driver no-doubt, him being the best though is strictly your opinion. Raikkonen would undoubtebly be ahead on points by now were it not for 2 mechanical failures- Massa included. While in contention for wins or podiums at the least. And Lewis has simply out-performed him. Were it not for the right-front tyre failure in qualifying in Germany, he certainly would have started and finished near the front. I don't think Mclaren would have taken that dumb gamble, which they admitted to seeing that he was far behind anyway, of the wrong tyre were he at the front. And the retirement in China would not have happened had the team not screwed it all up with the tyres. Alonso's mistakes alone cost him a good result in Japan. Plaudits to him for winning 2 championships but that was in more favourable circumstances; like a hopeless teammate. The point is he's still at his prime but is being beaten by guys around his age in evenly matched equipment. So, yes he's great, but its been proven beyond a doubt that he is not the best.

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Alonso's a fine driver no-doubt, him being the best though is strictly your opinion.

Yep. It is all about opinions.

Raikkonen would undoubtebly be ahead on points by now were it not for 2 mechanical failures- Massa included.

True, very true and very painful to acknowledge being myself a kimi fan. There is Monaco, you know, kimi, kiiiiimiiii what did you do!!!

But, hey, don't forget the FIA. Were it not for FIA, Hungary would have not been gifted to Hamilton. Or the crane, or the CHEATING.

This was supposed to be Ferrari's season.

And Lewis has simply out-performed him.

You are talking about out-performing Alonso? Geez, man, Hamilton is only 4 points ahead and has the entire team on his side. You MUST be joking.

Add to that all the FIA irregularities in the application of the rule book and Alonso would be 20 points or more ahead of Hamilton.

Were it not for the right-front tyre failure in qualifying in Germany, he certainly would have started and finished near the front. I don't think Mclaren would have taken that dumb gamble, which they admitted to seeing that he was far behind anyway, of the wrong tyre were he at the front. And the retirement in China would not have happened had the team not screwed it all up with the tyres.

Damn, man, you really have a Hamilton boner, don't ya?

Alonso's mistakes alone cost him a good result in Japan.

Only Hamilton is perfect.

Plaudits to him for winning 2 championships but that was in more favourable circumstances; like a hopeless teammate.

Yeah, right, it was a walk in the park to take on the McLarens two years back or Schumacher last year.

The point is he's still at his prime but is being beaten by guys around his age in evenly matched equipment.

Alonso has won as many races as Hamilton. Actually, one more since Hamilton was gifted Hungary, right or wrong.

So, yes he's great, but its been proven beyond a doubt that he is not the best.

He is the only WC in the field (twice to boot) and he is close to a third with a team that, well, is behaving quite unprofessionaly if not down right illegally.

I've said it before. I never liked Alonso bar some races. But the lynching he has endured this year and the results he's obtained in spite of it... well, the guy deserves total and unreserved respect as a racer.

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Look, I'm not trying to undermine Alonso as a driver, because I have a huge amount of respect for him in this respect. But, you cannot blame the FIA for the disparity in points between himself and his 'debutant' teammate. Lewis has been lucky regards to FIA rulings, true, but it was fruitless in Germany. Can you honestly say that Fernando's outperformed Hamilton though? Safety-car period aside, Lewis was peerless in the rain while Fernando went off-track more than once. I'm definately not a Hamilton fan- I do not want him to win this title, but the fact is he's a wonder. Kimi's error in Monaco did not cost him a points-finish. Alonso's one in Japan however, did, at a very critical stage of the championship. I did not say Fernando had it easy for his titles but he probably wouldn't have won it in 2005 had the Mclaren been as reliable as his Renault or this years Mac for that matter. And actually, LH and FA have each won exactly once since Hungary. Lewis is obviously that little bit better. Yes Fernando deserves respect, but respect usually accompanies results. And his have been found wanting this year. And don't you think Lewis deserves the teams support? One, he's Brittish- it certainly counts for something; and secondly, he's out-performed (since scores count in sport) the youngest double WC. Lastly, maybe FA's been lynched because of his political behaviour. That and under-achieving this year.

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Look, I'm not trying to undermine Alonso as a driver, because I have a huge amount of respect for him in this respect. But, you cannot blame the FIA for the disparity in points between himself and his 'debutant' teammate. Lewis has been lucky regards to FIA rulings, true, but it was fruitless in Germany. Can you honestly say that Fernando's outperformed Hamilton though? Safety-car period aside, Lewis was peerless in the rain while Fernando went off-track more than once. I'm definately not a Hamilton fan- I do not want him to win this title, but the fact is he's a wonder. Kimi's error in Monaco did not cost him a points-finish. Alonso's one in Japan however, did, at a very critical stage of the championship. I did not say Fernando had it easy for his titles but he probably wouldn't have won it in 2005 had the Mclaren been as reliable as his Renault or this years Mac for that matter. And actually, LH and FA have each won exactly once since Hungary. Lewis is obviously that little bit better. Yes Fernando deserves respect, but respect usually accompanies results. And his have been found wanting this year. And don't you think Lewis deserves the teams support? One, he's Brittish- it certainly counts for something; and secondly, he's out-performed (since scores count in sport) the youngest double WC. Lastly, maybe FA's been lynched because of his political behaviour. That and under-achieving this year.

Ah, finally! A diamond in the rough! Great post, Nevers :thbup: Good to see someone that can see the good things about a driver without resorting to trash the other.

My only disagreemento would be regarding the bit in bold. The "he wouldn't have been WDC if..." is not much of an excuse for the rest. Most championships could have been won by another driver "were it not for...". Renault was never as dominant as the Ferrari 2004, for example, so I think that McLaren's reliability problems in 2005 are a lame excuse.

All in all I agree with you, though. Maybe I would be a little more lenient towards Alonso, but that could be my bias.

Cheers! :cheers:

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People

Please remember that when dealing with the F1 press there is a big diffference between what a driver actually says and what the press report he has said.

If you are ready to string someone up make sure, you read the entire transcript of a drivers remarks. The British press tend to focus only on their own agenda, and many times an inaccurate quote gathers steam and spreads like a wild fire. People read this and judge a person solely on the bias reporting.

Alonso is a great driver, Hamiliton is a great driver. The FIA is incompetent, end of story. With good governence this would have been a banner year for F1, instead it is a Laughing stock, and hard to imagine professional.

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Please remember that when dealing with the F1 press there is a big diffference between what a driver actually says and what the press report he has said.

If you are ready to string someone up make sure, you read the entire transcript of a drivers remarks. The British press tend to focus only on their own agenda, and many times an inaccurate quote gathers steam and spreads like a wild fire. People read this and judge a person solely on the bias reporting.

Alonso is a great driver, Hamiliton is a great driver. The FIA is incompetent, end of story. With good governence this would have been a banner year for F1, instead it is a Laughing stock, and hard to imagine professional.

Good luck trying to convince everybody on that one! :lol: Well, except for the FIA incompetent bit, everybody agrees on that.

I completely agree.

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No worries. We can chat it out.

Look, I'm not trying to undermine Alonso as a driver, because I have a huge amount of respect for him in this respect.

Ok, sure. Like I said, Alonso minus the lynching and I would still look through him as if he wasn't really there.

But, you cannot blame the FIA for the disparity in points between himself and his 'debutant' teammate.

I don't.

First, the disparity of points is FOUR.

Second, the FIA (right or wrong) has penalized Alonso severely and given free walks to Hamilton.

Third, McLaren is well on Hamilton's side to put it mildly.

So no "debutant' and case close. All of it adds up... to a FOUR point lead. Sorry but it stacks clearly in favor of Alonso.

Lewis has been lucky regards to FIA rulings, true,

Say that again. How many points has he gotten out of that "luck"? More than FOUR points, perhaps?

Can you honestly say that Fernando's outperformed Hamilton though?

I can honestly say that Hamilton has in no way whatsoever, outperformed Alonso.

I can also say with equal honesty that Hamilton could outperform Alonso and perhaps will. But, today, as things are, Hamilton's standings are artificial and more so in comparison to Alonso's, Kimi's, or anyone else's.

Safety-car period aside, Lewis was peerless in the rain while Fernando went off-track more than once.

Which race are you talking about? Not China, I gather.

I'm definately not a Hamilton fan- I do not want him to win this title, but the fact is he's a wonder.

Hamilton is good but to what extent we will not know until he proves himself. He needs to shed the godfathers and race his own races like all other drivers and under the same rules as everyone else.

Kimi's error in Monaco did not cost him a points-finish.

Don't remind me. Uggg!!!

Alonso's one in Japan however, did, at a very critical stage of the championship.

So? Better on the track than on the pitlane?

I did not say Fernando had it easy for his titles but he probably wouldn't have won it in 2005 had the Mclaren been as reliable as his Renault or this years Mac for that matter.

I would like to think so too but we can only settle on "perhaps".

And actually, LH and FA have each won exactly once since Hungary.

Which was gifted to Hamilton, let us not forget.

Lewis is obviously that little bit better.

With help and still debatable.

Yes Fernando deserves respect, but respect usually accompanies results.

The results are FOUR points difference with a sht storm to deal with while Hamilton has enough godfathers to pack a stadium.

And his have been found wanting this year. And don't you think Lewis deserves the teams support?

McLaren brags about equality but cannot deliver. On that account, they undermine Hamilton's skill and give more value to Alonso's struggle for the WC. If Alonso wins, it will have been against all odds. If Hamilton wins, it will have been a victory of many and not all together clean.

One, he's Brittish- it certainly counts for something;

No kidding.

and secondly, he's out-performed (since scores count in sport) the youngest double WC.

He simply hasn't. In fact, since Hamilton was not allowed to leech Alonso's data, his performance went to crap. Only a gift from FIA in Hungary and a questionable race in Japan would count anyway.

Lastly, maybe FA's been lynched because of his political behaviour. That and under-achieving this year.

The under-achieving is a fabrication that doesn't hold up.

Alonso has been lynched because:

1) Hamilton's godfathers don't believe Hamilton has a prayer otherwise.

2) RD chose Alonso as a scapegoat to cowardly evade his own responsibilities.

3) The British press is vehemently harsh... with locals and foreigners. I still remember the first insult/headline, way back when, "The Big Baby".

When RD dismissed Alonso's victory in Monaco, my fear was that this behaviour would end up destroying Hamilton. You see, I was a Hamilton fan through GP2. I mean, what a sense of grip!! Beautiful to watch, just beautiful. Anyway, the season has proven my right. First, RD, then FIA have all pushed Hamilton down our throats and have only accomplished one thing, to put the stink of fraud all over Hamilton. It is unfair, for sure. But it is the way it is too.

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You're right QuietOne, its the results that count at the end of the day. FA made the best of the situation, he deserves his title.

I'm sorry if it seems I'm perpetuating the lynching, that's not where I'm going.

But Maure, I think your anti-Lewis bias is on overdrive. The 4 points do not tell the full story. It was the team that kept Lewis out on canvasses instead of calling him in sooner. Or should he have taken it in before the crew got ready?And what, exactly, suggests Mclaren have given advantage to Hamilton? Mclaren's biggest sin is letting them race on equal terms- a sin alright because FA deserves some advantage for all his worth. He did get it in Monaco though. But on absolute equal terms, he's been beaten more times than not.

6 Pole-positions to 2, equal on wins and NO experience to draw from. Artificial? Lewis must have alot of friends in important places.

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Alonso will never lose my respect as a driver. He is without any doubt the best man on the grid (Raikkonen is not at the same level and Lewis still has a long way to go -see Nurburgring-Shangai-, despite he can surely reach the top level).

But Fernando is losing my respect as a human being. The crap he's saying to the press, the way he is completely unable to accept being beaten, the way he menaced his team in the spy story...

McLaren may be on Hamilton's side but they are a fair team. If not Alonso wouldn't have won at Monza with a huge advantage and also wouldn't have beaten Lewis at Spa fair and square. I seriously hope he's shown the door after Interlagos

Can you explain the contradiction in your post? One the one hand you are saying that Fernando is better than Lewis, on the other you are saying that Lewis has beaten him fairly. I don't understand.

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First, the disparity of points is FOUR.

Second, the FIA (right or wrong) has penalized Alonso severely and given free walks to Hamilton.

Third, McLaren is well on Hamilton's side to put it mildly.

So no "debutant' and case close. All of it adds up... to a FOUR point lead. Sorry but it stacks clearly in favor of Alonso.

Lewis has been lucky regards to FIA rulings, true,

Say that again. How many points has he gotten out of that "luck"? More than FOUR points, perhaps?

Explain 'severely'. It (FIA rulings) wouldn't be an issue at all if he was consistantly outperforming Hamilton, which he isn't.

Can you honestly say that Fernando's outperformed Hamilton though?

I can honestly say that Hamilton has in no way whatsoever, outperformed Alonso.

I can also say with equal honesty that Hamilton could outperform Alonso and perhaps will. But, today, as things are, Hamilton's standings are artificial and more so in comparison to Alonso's, Kimi's, or anyone else's.

I'm definately not a Hamilton fan- I do not want him to win this title, but the fact is he's a wonder.

Hamilton is good but to what extent we will not know until he proves himself. He needs to shed the godfathers and race his own races like all other drivers and under the same rules as everyone else.

Throughout the season Hamilton has outperformed Alonso slightly, hence four points. Artificial? He has won races, stringed together nine podiums. Artificial?

Explain to me for who else Hamilton races for if not himself.

Alonso's one in Japan however, did, at a very critical stage of the championship.

So? Better on the track than on the pitlane?

Hmm, better how? A non-finish is a non-finish, no points, Hamilton's tyres were destroyed of course.

Yes Fernando deserves respect, but respect usually accompanies results.

The results are FOUR points difference with a sht storm to deal with while Hamilton has enough godfathers to pack a stadium.

You make Hamilton sound like he's in the mafia with all this 'godfathers' talk.

And his have been found wanting this year. And don't you think Lewis deserves the teams support?

McLaren brags about equality but cannot deliver. On that account, they undermine Hamilton's skill and give more value to Alonso's struggle for the WC. If Alonso wins, it will have been against all odds. If Hamilton wins, it will have been a victory of many and not all together clean.

You have no concrete evidence Mclaren are sabotaging Alonso, your theory/opinion conveniently undermines Hamilton and flatters Alonso.

and secondly, he's out-performed (since scores count in sport) the youngest double WC.

He simply hasn't. In fact, since Hamilton was not allowed to leech Alonso's data, his performance went to crap. Only a gift from FIA in Hungary and a questionable race in Japan would count anyway.

His performance went to crap? He beat him in Japan and was leading him in China, you know whenever you devalue Hamilton you are also devalueing Alonso - it works both ways.

Lastly, maybe FA's been lynched because of his political behaviour. That and under-achieving this year.

Alonso has been lynched because:

1) Hamilton's godfathers don't believe Hamilton has a prayer otherwise.

Horse Sh#t.

2) RD chose Alonso as a scapegoat to cowardly evade his own responsibilities.

O-K.

3) The British press is vehemently harsh... with locals and foreigners. I still remember the first insult/headline, way back when, "The Big Baby".

So the Spanish aren't like this?

When RD dismissed Alonso's victory in Monaco, my fear was that this behaviour would end up destroying Hamilton. You see, I was a Hamilton fan through GP2. I mean, what a sense of grip!! Beautiful to watch, just beautiful. Anyway, the season has proven my right. First, RD, then FIA have all pushed Hamilton down our throats and have only accomplished one thing, to put the stink of fraud all over Hamilton. It is unfair, for sure. But it is the way it is too.

You recognise this is unfair, yet you are an example of someone who has taken all the Hamilton hype to seriously, and have become totally biased.

EDIT: I'm replying to maure here, slighly confusing but not any of the bits in bold (Nevers), apart from the last bit of course.

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You're right QuietOne, its the results that count at the end of the day. FA made the best of the situation, he deserves his title.

I'm sorry if it seems I'm perpetuating the lynching, that's not where I'm going.

But Maure, I think your anti-Lewis bias is on overdrive. The 4 points do not tell the full story. It was the team that kept Lewis out on canvasses instead of calling him in sooner. Or should he have taken it in before the crew got ready?And what, exactly, suggests Mclaren have given advantage to Hamilton? Mclaren's biggest sin is letting them race on equal terms- a sin alright because FA deserves some advantage for all his worth. He did get it in Monaco though. But on absolute equal terms, he's been beaten more times than not.

6 Pole-positions to 2, equal on wins and NO experience to draw from. Artificial? Lewis must have alot of friends in important places.

If you actually read what I write, you will find that I say nothing but good things about Hamilton. In fact, I continue to express my opinion that the situation created by RD, McLaren, and FIA is harming Hamilton. But I understand you are forced to ignore that in order to have an argument at all.

Regarding the 4 points, yep, it is in favor of Alonso that has had to swim upriver while Hamilton has had nothing but helping hands.

Regarding equality, nope, there isn't any as RD naively confessed the other day. Beyond that, my view is that Alonso deserves nothing more than anyone else. I understand that others may disagree and that there are economic reasons to support the driver that has the best chance. However, the Shumacher/Barrichello affair was so disgusting that I can no longer endorse anything other than equality.

Regarding Hamilton's friends, of course they are in important places. First, there is RD that is not a friend but Hamilton's btch and the man that is in the best position to decide who and what is given to each driver in terms of everything, from machinery to strategy. Second, Ecclestone drools eveytime he speaks of Hamilton and has clearly said in no uncertain terms that he wants Hamilton to win. Third, Whiting again and again claims that Hamilton's actions are punishable _next_ time. Those three are "friends in important places", damn, they have the _only_ places of importance.

Thus, Hamilton's standings are artificial becuase they have many fathers. It is unclear, unfortunately, what Hamilton would be able to do on his own or, worse, if he were dealing with the sht storm that Alonso is dealing with. Hopefully, Hamilton will have a chance to truly demonstrate what he can do it, if he is lucky enough to get a seat in any other team.

Is your Hamilton boner still on overdrive?

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Explain 'severely'. It (FIA rulings) wouldn't be an issue at all if he was consistantly outperforming Hamilton, which he isn't.

Throughout the season Hamilton has outperformed Alonso slightly, hence four points. Artificial? He has won races, stringed together nine podiums. Artificial?

Alonso is not outperforming Hamilton enough to counteract the enormous favoritism Hamilton enjoys... but almost.

Yeap, I keep saying Hamilton is good and you guys keep ignoring it to have something to argue with. Well, here is again, Hamilton can race. The extent of his skill is UNFORTUNATELY unclear because of all the hands pushing him while holding others back.

Explain to me for who else Hamilton races for if not himself.

Hmm, better how? A non-finish is a non-finish, no points, Hamilton's tyres were destroyed of course.

You make Hamilton sound like he's in the mafia with all this 'godfathers' talk.

You have no concrete evidence Mclaren are sabotaging Alonso, your theory/opinion conveniently undermines Hamilton and flatters Alonso.

His performance went to crap? He beat him in Japan and was leading him in China, you know whenever you devalue Hamilton you are also devalueing Alonso - it works both ways.

It doesn't. You can insist that Hamilton is not being favored by RD, McLaren, and FIA. It doesn't change the fact that he is.

So the Spanish aren't like this?

You recognise this is unfair, yet you are an example of someone who has taken all the Hamilton hype to seriously, and have become totally biased.

I can speculate that the Spanish press is as bad. Couldn't say. All I read from Spain is the purposely mangled and bigoted translations I get from the British press.

What is true is that I am forced to acknowledge that the game is not fair PRECISELY because I don't give a sht about hype. If I did, I would consider Hamilton an untouchable god and we all be happily agreeing that F1 was nothing before his greatness showed up.

In any case, and as I explained and you chose to ignore, my concerns started in Monaco AND they were concerns for Hamilton. Since then, things have only gotten worse (for Hamilton). It was only when RD cowardly chose Alonso as a scapegoat to elude his own responsibilities that I said "enough"... and here we are.

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Explain to me for who else Hamilton races for if not himself.

Hmm, better how? A non-finish is a non-finish, no points, Hamilton's tyres were destroyed of course.

You make Hamilton sound like he's in the mafia with all this 'godfathers' talk.

You have no concrete evidence Mclaren are sabotaging Alonso, your theory/opinion conveniently undermines Hamilton and flatters Alonso.

His performance went to crap? He beat him in Japan and was leading him in China, you know whenever you devalue Hamilton you are also devalueing Alonso - it works both ways.

It doesn't. You can insist that Hamilton is not being favored by RD, McLaren, and FIA. It doesn't change the fact that he is.

Do not state your opinions as facts. You haven't produced a shred of evidence that the FIA is favouring Hamilton- you've merely sidestepped every legitimate question which has been asked of you by the others on this thread who have attempted to engage you in a discussion. The least you could do is extend them the same courtesyby replying to the points above.

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