Appeal Date Set...

[z2z 0]

DECISION OF THE INTERNATIONAL COURT OF APPEAL

16.11.2007

The FIA International Court of Appeal met in London on Thursday, November 15, 2007, to examine an appeal lodged by the Motor Sports Association (MSA) on behalf of its licence-holder Vodafone McLaren Mercedes against the decision (document 41) of the Panel of the Stewards of the 2007 Brazilian Grand Prix dated 21 October 2007 and counting towards the 2007 FIA Formula One World Championship.

Following a report from the Technical Delegate indicating that the temperature of fuel pumped into the cars N

[goferrarigo 0]

Thanks for the confirmination. z2z

[Rainmaster 7]

Well there it is.

[Eric 0]

That was stupid.

[redfive 0]

It is horrible that after the title was won fair n square on the track,Mclaren are appealing the decision.At first they said it was just for the best interest of the drivers,but now they are saying it is just to clarify the rules.

The title was not won fair and square, one team was caught cheating by bending the rules with and illegal floor and got away with it

one team bragged to the press that their driver (Massa) was going to cede to Kimi, to allow him to become WDC and did so.....despite this being against the rules! And the FIA sat back and smiled whilst that teams main compeditors had a MARSHALL in their garage to ensure they did not do the same thing!

and one team had the FIA decide in their favor and allowed their driver to keep his WDC because the team that appealed the illegal fuel could not use their evidence or place their appeal because at the time of the cheating that team did not know about it

no siree bob, the title was not won fair and square

[redfive 0]

oooops

[Elizabeth Sterling 0]

The title was not won fair and square, one team was caught cheating by bending the rules with and illegal floor and got away with it

The flexi-floor was legal the whole time it was being run. It took rule clarification to prevent it. That's not cheating.

one team bragged to the press that their driver (Massa) was going to cede to Kimi, to allow him to become WDC and did so.....despite this being against the rules!

No, they didn't say that once in anywhere near the way you portray it and it isn't against the rules either unless it comes from a direct order from the team for one driver to move over. Show us where the order was. Considering Kimi set the fastest lap of the race, was always much more calm and controlled in his driving than Massa and between the white lines it's not exactly an open and shut case that Massa let him through either, or at the very least that he had to had Kimi been racing at full tilt.

And the FIA sat back and smiled whilst that teams main compeditors had a MARSHALL in their garage to ensure they did not do the same thing!

Erm... right, now you're just stretching.

and one team had the FIA decide in their favor and allowed their driver to keep his WDC because the team that appealed the illegal fuel could not use their evidence or place their appeal because at the time of the cheating that team did not know about it

What are you *on* about here? What do you think this whole appeal was about?

no siree bob, the title was not won fair and square

The fact Mclaren weren't thrown out on their arses for the cheat scandal, care to comment on that? Especially as Alonso was totally let of despite admitting he was cheating? No?

[schumi4ever 0]

The title was not won fair and square, one team was caught cheating by bending the rules with and illegal floor and got away with it

one team bragged to the press that their driver (Massa) was going to cede to Kimi, to allow him to become WDC and did so.....despite this being against the rules! And the FIA sat back and smiled whilst that teams main compeditors had a MARSHALL in their garage to ensure they did not do the same thing!

and one team had the FIA decide in their favor and allowed their driver to keep his WDC because the team that appealed the illegal fuel could not use their evidence or place their appeal because at the time of the cheating that team did not know about it

no siree bob, the title was not won fair and square

the title was won fair and square. To put it simply, Mclaren shot themselves in the foot so they deserved to lose. Yes they SHOULD have won, but somehow they were stupid enough to throw it all away. In the end ferrari deserved it

[bani_f1 0]

McLaren got what they deserved the most.Even the international court of appeal kicked their a## pretty hard.They better learn work ethics or everyone will continue kicking their a##.

[goferrarigo 0]

No, they didn't say that once in anywhere near the way you portray it and it isn't against the rules either unless it comes from a direct order from the team for one driver to move over. Show us where the order was. Considering Kimi set the fastest lap of the race, was always much more calm and controlled in his driving than Massa and between the white lines it's not exactly an open and shut case that Massa let him through either, or at the very least that he had to had Kimi been racing at full tilt.

There was no explict order, but i do believe that the extension of the contract for 3 years was done so Massa would oblige and be "happy" to help the team and give up his home race... From the start of the season; whichever when you ferrari drivers were leading the race, the one in front one and never did the other threaten him by pitstops or driving fast, so i believe Massa was called in 2-3 laps earlier(where Kimi pushed) and even according to the commentators calculations he was called earlier to give Kimi a little bit of margin... But in the end, it can't be proved and we will only believe what we want to believe...

[DarkLord 0]

gr8...

So now what will McLaren do? Go again in court and file a complain that kimi slept with an italian actress/modal and he dont deserve to be a champion or Ferrari has a red paint on their car and its similar to their sponsors color so crown Baby Lewis as champ?

[z2z 0]

IMHO ..BMW & Williams escaped Fine or penalty & Ian Mill really unclouded mclaren's intentions!

Great Finally 2007 season is over

...no wait customer car stuff still need to be sorted out

[rodders47 2]

Despite the FIA Technical Delegate

[redfive 0]

The flexi-floor was legal the whole time it was being run. It took rule clarification to prevent it. That's not cheating.

No, they didn't say that once in anywhere near the way you portray it and it isn't against the rules either unless it comes from a direct order from the team for one driver to move over. Show us where the order was. Considering Kimi set the fastest lap of the race, was always much more calm and controlled in his driving than Massa and between the white lines it's not exactly an open and shut case that Massa let him through either, or at the very least that he had to had Kimi been racing at full tilt.Erm... right, now you're just stretching.

What are you *on* about here? What do you think this whole appeal was about?

The fact Mclaren weren't thrown out on their arses for the cheat scandal, care to comment on that? Especially as Alonso was totally let of despite admitting he was cheating? No?

The flexi floor was not legal, there just was not a test in place to catch it

it is like saying smoking pot is legal until everyone if forced to give blood to test for it

Team orders are against the rules - check the FIA website. Again your premise is like saying that it is legal to break into someones house as long as you dont get caught. Massa was rewarded with a 3 yr contract for his cheating. Kimi set fasted lap in the part of the race where Massa slowed down. Massa was faster than Kimi in the first half of the race - until he took his foot off the gas to stage the Kimi overtake in pits trick!

Massa did indeed brag about helping Kimi - and the FIA allowed it - and the FIA put people in the McLaren garage to ensure that McLaren did not do the same

The whole appeal was a sham because McLaren were not allowed to make their case - and they were not allowed because they did appeal directly after the race - another analogy for you - that would be like the police being told that thay could not arrest someone for murder because at the time of the murder, they did not know it was happening

scandalous - please try and look at it without red tinted glasses and you will say the same

[Rainmaster 7]

The flexi floor was not legal, there just was not a test in place to catch it

it is like saying smoking pot is legal until everyone if forced to give blood to test for it

Team orders are against the rules - check the FIA website. Again your premise is like saying that it is legal to break into someones house as long as you dont get caught. Massa was rewarded with a 3 yr contract for his cheating. Kimi set fasted lap in the part of the race where Massa slowed down. Massa was faster than Kimi in the first half of the race - until he took his foot off the gas to stage the Kimi overtake in pits trick!

Massa did indeed brag about helping Kimi - and the FIA allowed it - and the FIA put people in the McLaren garage to ensure that McLaren did not do the same

The whole appeal was a sham because McLaren were not allowed to make their case - and they were not allowed because they did appeal directly after the race - another analogy for you - that would be like the police being told that thay could not arrest someone for murder because at the time of the murder, they did not know it was happening

scandalous - please try and look at it without red tinted glasses and you will say the same

The floor passed the FIA test which was in place at the time, therefore it was legal, it's as simple as that. If it passes the test which deems whether it's legal or illegal, then that's all the FIA can ask for. BTW that is how innovation happens in F1, a designer spots a loophole in the rules and exploits it to gain an advantage, that's the way it's always been. Ferrari didn't do anything wrong in that situation, Mclaren probably kicked themselves for not thinking of it.

Team orders are against the rules, BUT, every team would have a system whereby if necessary then the driver must let his team-mate through, it may not be fair - but that is how it is. The only thing that rule did was force teams to do it more subtly, slower in & out laps instead of blatently moving over on track.

I don't think Massa ever actually said he let Kimi through, he just said he was helping the team (which if asked what he meant he would say getting 8pts for second) so the FIA wouldn't have a case against Ferrari. They would need solid proof and they wouldn't find it, Massa knew the score before he started the race, if Kimi can win the championship let him through - or your not gonna be in a Ferrari next year. For the record, I think he probably did let him through.

So, was the title won 'fair and square'? - well not really, but I reckon that's usually the case. I would say it was won as fair as your gonna get in F1.

One last thing, just to be clear, I'm not a fan of Ferrari or anything.

[Max Mosley 2]

Come on OFFICIALS give me a break. It is either WITHIN the rules or it is NOT. OR more importantly are you guys capable of measuring anything ?

Yes it sounds like a fudge to me.

[Fed up 0]

The floor passed the FIA test which was in place at the time, therefore it was legal, it's as simple as that. If it passes the test which deems whether it's legal or illegal, then that's all the FIA can ask for. BTW that is how innovation happens in F1, a designer spots a loophole in the rules and exploits it to gain an advantage, that's the way it's always been. Ferrari didn't do anything wrong in that situation, Mclaren probably kicked themselves for not thinking of it.

Team orders are against the rules, BUT, every team would have a system whereby if necessary then the driver must let his team-mate through, it may not be fair - but that is how it is. The only thing that rule did was force teams to do it more subtly, slower in & out laps instead of blatently moving over on track.

I don't think Massa ever actually said he let Kimi through, he just said he was helping the team (which if asked what he meant he would say getting 8pts for second) so the FIA wouldn't have a case against Ferrari. They would need solid proof and they wouldn't find it, Massa knew the score before he started the race, if Kimi can win the championship let him through - or your not gonna be in a Ferrari next year. For the record, I think he probably did let him through.

So, was the title won 'fair and square'? - well not really, but I reckon that's usually the case. I would say it was won as fair as your gonna get in F1.

One last thing, just to be clear, I'm not a fan of Ferrari or anything.

I'm of the opinion that Mclaren & Lewis fcuked the whole WDC thing up - The pressure exerted by the FIA could be argued as a contributing factor, but ultimately Lewis should have won the WDC in a canter in the end - To lose 17 points in 2 races when only 4 cars (3 if you include the obvious sabotage of Nando) were capable of running at the front beggars belief.

There was a race, cant remember which one, when Ferrari engineered a Kimi pass of Felipe by making Felipe make an extra splash and dash stop when it was obvious that he had the legs of his team mate. No matter what anyone says Kimi was the chosen one at Ferrari and his WDC win is down to his obvious ability but also team orders in the ferrari camp.

It is hypocritical to appoint a FIA delegate to oversee the Mclaren team for equality but not do the same for Ferrari. Mclaren had to bend over backwards to prove equality while Ferrari could focus all their efforts, including one of their drivers, in their pursuit of the WDC.

Lewis lost the WDC and Kimi won it, period!

[redfive 0]

not so much period really massa gave kimi the championship - illegaly

[Fed up 0]

not so much period really massa gave kimi the championship - illegaly

It can't be proven that Massa gave Kimi the WDC - If Lewis & the Mclaren team had used their heads in China and 'raced' Kimi instead of focusing on Nando Lewis could have scored 4 points (5th position) and eliminated Kimi from the reckoning It wasn't Kimi or Massa's fault that Mclaren dithered or Lewis pushed his tyres.

Lewis needed a 4th place finish in Brazil - Why didn't the team fuel him long in quali - It was obvious and predictable that the two Ferrari's and nando would squeeze him at the start as they had less to lose than Lewis - A heavier fuel strategy would perhaps have placed him in 4th place on the grid and he could have paced his race - Nando's pace was ridiculously slow so there was never any danger that he would challenge the Ferrari's for the win and Lewis' car was at least 0.5 sec/lap faster than nando with it's uprated engine.

Yes Ferrari did their best for Kimi to win, but so did Mclaren with their inept display.

[redfive 0]

it cannot be proven that McLaren used the so called stolen documents either

but you finished it PERIOD and then admit there is some doubt but not provable - we all know he ceded his position, but yeah its not provable - but that does not make it any better

if you get away with a crime, you are still a criminal

[goferrarigo 0]

I'm of the opinion that Mclaren & Lewis fcuked the whole WDC thing up - The pressure exerted by the FIA could be argued as a contributing factor, but ultimately Lewis should have won the WDC in a canter in the end - To lose 17 points in 2 races when only 4 cars (3 if you include the obvious sabotage of Nando) were capable of running at the front beggars belief.

There was a race, cant remember which one, when Ferrari engineered a Kimi pass of Felipe by making Felipe make an extra splash and dash stop when it was obvious that he had the legs of his team mate. No matter what anyone says Kimi was the chosen one at Ferrari and his WDC win is down to his obvious ability but also team orders in the ferrari camp.

It is hypocritical to appoint a FIA delegate to oversee the Mclaren team for equality but not do the same for Ferrari. Mclaren had to bend over backwards to prove equality while Ferrari could focus all their efforts, including one of their drivers, in their pursuit of the WDC.

Lewis lost the WDC and Kimi won it, period!

That was Fuji, and going into that race, Massa was mathmeatically out of contension for the WDC, and since Ferrari had won thw WCC, it didn't matter if he finished 4th or 6th, but for Kimi it would have...

and i Feel the contract was signed to make Massa give up his HOME RACE and the record for whinning it a consecitive time and let Kimi win the WDC.

The way Ferrari did its team orders can't be proven, as all were done via pits (and the excuse can easily be, "we needed to check his car for problems" etc). So as they say, Innocent until proven guilty...

[goferrarigo 0]

it cannot be proven that McLaren used the so called stolen documents either

but you finished it PERIOD and then admit there is some doubt but not provable - we all know he ceded his position, but yeah its not provable - but that does not make it any better

if you get away with a crime, you are still a criminal

If no one knows what you stole; how are you a criminal???

[Elizabeth Sterling 0]

The flexi floor was not legal, there just was not a test in place to catch it

it is like saying smoking pot is legal until everyone if forced to give blood to test for it

Team orders are against the rules - check the FIA website. Again your premise is like saying that it is legal to break into someones house as long as you dont get caught. Massa was rewarded with a 3 yr contract for his cheating. Kimi set fasted lap in the part of the race where Massa slowed down. Massa was faster than Kimi in the first half of the race - until he took his foot off the gas to stage the Kimi overtake in pits trick!

Massa did indeed brag about helping Kimi - and the FIA allowed it - and the FIA put people in the McLaren garage to ensure that McLaren did not do the same

The whole appeal was a sham because McLaren were not allowed to make their case - and they were not allowed because they did appeal directly after the race - another analogy for you - that would be like the police being told that thay could not arrest someone for murder because at the time of the murder, they did not know it was happening

scandalous - please try and look at it without red tinted glasses and you will say the same

You must be the first person on earth to accuse me of being a Ferrari fangirl. I've no love for the scuderia at all, I'm a woking girl born and raised. The appeal was nothing to do with Mclaren not being allowed to make their case.

1 - No, Massa did not 'brag' about helping Kimi.

2 - They appealed after the race and were turned down by the stewards, that's how things are handled in F1.

3 - The rule states that the team must not make any calls that engineer the outcome of a race. That's not to say they can't advise it before the race, that drivers can't agree beforehand between themselves (See Melbourne 98/Suzuka 91) or that in fact he did move over for Kimi.

4 - If the tests say it's legal it is. Remember the Honda case? They proved that standard practice constituted official rules. End of.

it cannot be proven that McLaren used the so called stolen documents either

but you finished it PERIOD and then admit there is some doubt but not provable - we all know he ceded his position, but yeah its not provable - but that does not make it any better

if you get away with a crime, you are still a criminal

What? It was quite easily proven that Mclaren handled Mclaren documets. They had confessions, outside witnesses and found the documents that had been leaked and Mclaren has made no attempt to deny it since. Also, aren't you contradicting yourself with that last line?

[goferrarigo 0]

You must be the first person on earth to accuse me of being a Ferrari fangirl. I've no love for the scuderia at all, I'm a woking girl born and raised. The appeal was nothing to do with Mclaren not being allowed to make their case.

1 - No, Massa did not 'brag' about helping Kimi.

2 - They appealed after the race and were turned down by the stewards, that's how things are handled in F1.

3 - The rule states that the team must not make any calls that engineer the outcome of a race. That's not to say they can't advise it before the race, that drivers can't agree beforehand between themselves (See Melbourne 98/Suzuka 91) or that in fact he did move over for Kimi.

4 - If the tests say it's legal it is. Remember the Honda case? They proved that standard practice constituted official rules. End of.

What? It was quite easily proven that Mclaren handled Mclaren documets. They had confessions, outside witnesses and found the documents that had been leaked and Mclaren has made no attempt to deny it since. Also, aren't you contradicting yourself with that last line?

Back then Team orders were allowed....

[pabloh20 1]

it cannot be proven that McLaren used the so called stolen documents either

but you finished it PERIOD and then admit there is some doubt but not provable - we all know he ceded his position, but yeah its not provable - but that does not make it any better

if you get away with a crime, you are still a criminal

Massa is allowed to cede his place, if he so chooses, as is any driver. If a driver decides to help his team mate, then that is not against the rules. However if a team forces a driver to help his team mate, then that is against the rules, according to the FIA. Proving/disproving that it was the driver's decision is the tricky bit, but I don't think it was relevant in this case.

Personally, I do feel that Massa is not quite getting the credit, for want of a better word. I don't think he needed to be bribed to not win his home race, if it was possible for him to win it. I imagine he was disappointed by not figuring in the latter stages of the WDC, but after that initial disappointment, I am sure he was ore than willing to help the team and Kimi.