Appeal Date Set...

[goferrarigo 0]

Mclaren appeal set for November 15th

Fuel irregularities investigated

Oct.27 (GMM) An appeal lodged by McLaren that could alter the outcome of the 2007 drivers' championship will be heard by the Court of Appeal on November 15.

Ferrari's Kimi Raikkonen was crowned at Interlagos last Sunday, but if three cars had been excluded by stewards for allegedly using illegally cold fuel, Lewis Hamilton would have scored enough points to beat the Finn.

McLaren is appealing the stewards' decision to not penalise both Williams and BMW-Sauber cars even though scrutineers identified a discrepancy.

FIA president Max Mosley, however, is downplaying the possibility of Hamilton being handed the title on appeal.

"You could argue whether McLaren had a right to appeal the stewards' judgment," he is quoted as saying by the British broadsheet newspaper The Guardian.

"They could have protested the result of the race but they didn't. But even if the cars classified ahead of Hamilton would be excluded, would this change his position?

"The court of appeal will have to rule on that," Mosley added.

http://formula-1.updatesport.com/news/arti...er-15/view.html

Well finally the WDC will be decided in 18 days...

[Rainmaster 7]

It shall remain Kimi's, it just has to really...

[goferrarigo 0]

It shall remain Kimi's, it just has to really...

I know it should...I want him to get his much deserved WDC, but what we want doesn't allways have to be the reality so....

[rumblestrip 0]

If there are any penalties, they should be in WCC points only, not in WDC points.

How would you like to be the guy who wins the championship like that? Always an asterisk next to you name.

[Rainmaster 7]

I know it should...I want him to get his much deserved WDC, but what we want doesn't allways have to be the reality so....

Yeah but if you want something really really bad and wish for it, you might just get it, oh wait that's a Disney film. Even if the drivers were excluded Lewis might still not be moved up, they have the ability to keep him where he is but exclude people above him - that is the brilliance of the FIA rulebook.

I'm confident it will come to nothing, I read an article on Autosport which basically says it's difficult to prove the fuel was wrong in the actual car, and that due to the way the rules are written and various other things it is difficult to punish them.

[goferrarigo 0]

Yeah but if you want something really really bad and wish for it, you might just get it, oh wait that's a Disney film. Even if the drivers were excluded Lewis might still not be moved up, they have the ability to keep him where he is but exclude people above him - that is the brilliance of the FIA rulebook.

I'm confident it will come to nothing, I read an article on Autosport which basically says it's difficult to prove the fuel was wrong in the actual car, and that due to the way the rules are written and various other things it is difficult to punish them.

Even i have seen that article but with the FIA being soo inconsistent with its rullings and interpretting the rules the way they want, anything is possible...

[F1 FANatic 1]

for all we know the FIA will fine Honda and STR $23.78 each for littering ice cubes into the BMW and Williams gas tanks

[freaky2 1]

I read an article in which Moseley almost dismissed any posibilities of Lewis winning the WDC. He said something like "For me the championship is already over".

[cristiano84 0]

The result shouldn't be changed. Kimi deserves the title.

And it won't, because FIA will never hurt Ferrari as Jackie Stewart has stated.(read article `McLaren won`t win appeal as FIA favours Ferrari`)

[dribbler 6]

I'm torn. Kimi deserves to hold on to his crown and the sport deserves it too; a decision being up held. But, if this were a race mid-season i think there would be a good chance of BMW and Williams being penalised and why not? They broke the rules.

So, part of me says that to not uphold the rules is incorrect, the other part of me says that to change the decision would be a fiasco. I think a fine to both parties is the way to go.

(As an aside, has anyone calculated who would have won the WCC had Mclaren not been disqualified?)

[cristiano84 0]

I'm torn. Kimi deserves to hold on to his crown and the sport deserves it too; a decision being up held. But, if this were a race mid-season i think there would be a good chance of BMW and Williams being penalised and why not? They broke the rules.

So, part of me says that to not uphold the rules is incorrect, the other part of me says that to change the decision would be a fiasco. I think a fine to both parties is the way to go.

(As an aside, has anyone calculated who would have won the WCC had Mclaren not been disqualified?)

McLaren

I don't even consider the Hungarian GP. It was a complete FIA farce. Hadn't they been disqualified they wouldn't have turned down their appeal for the result in Hungary so they would have won the title.

[freaky2 1]

I'm torn. Kimi deserves to hold on to his crown and the sport deserves it too; a decision being up held. But, if this were a race mid-season i think there would be a good chance of BMW and Williams being penalised and why not? They broke the rules.

So, part of me says that to not uphold the rules is incorrect, the other part of me says that to change the decision would be a fiasco. I think a fine to both parties is the way to go.

(As an aside, has anyone calculated who would have won the WCC had Mclaren not been disqualified?)

Yes, a couple of times already. Jean Todt was the first to do it and claimed that Ferrari also won the WCC fair and square. There are 2 ways to calculate it:

Adding up the drivers' points in the WDC standings --> McLaren wins.

Adding up the drivers' points in the WDC standings and substracting the penalty imposed to McLaren in Hungary --> Ferrari wins by one point. (204 to 203 I think)

[Elizabeth Sterling 0]

McLaren

I don't even consider the Hungarian GP. It was a complete FIA farce. Hadn't they been disqualified they wouldn't have turned down their appeal for the result in Hungary so they would have won the title.

I take your point, the Hungary penalty was very silly but saying if Mclaren hadn't been penalised for two seperate incidents they'd have lifted the title is somewhat of a stretch. There's always next year for us Mclaren fans of course, though that'll be a steeper climb and I'm still hoping Kimi makes it two in a row in the WDC.

[freaky2 1]

I take your point, the Hungary penalty was very silly but saying if Mclaren hadn't been penalised for two seperate incidents they'd have lifted the title is somewhat of a stretch. There's always next year for us Mclaren fans of course, though that'll be a steeper climb and I'm still hoping Kimi makes it two in a row.

Nah, considering only the on-track stuff and dismissing the espionage saga McLaren are rightful WCC. The FIA decision was a fiasco anyway so...

I'm glad that Kimi won the WDC, I don't care much about the WCC honestly.

[cristiano84 0]

I take your point, the Hungary penalty was very silly but saying if Mclaren hadn't been penalised for two seperate incidents they'd have lifted the title is somewhat of a stretch. There's always next year for us Mclaren fans of course, though that'll be a steeper climb and I'm still hoping Kimi makes it two in a row in the WDC.

Keep faith. I'm also happy for Kimi but I would never hope Ferrari to win two titles in a row. And it won't happen because we will be unbeatable next year!!

[freaky2 1]

Keep faith. I'm also happy for Kimi but I would never hope Ferrari to win two titles in a row. And it won't happen because we will be unbeatable next year!!

Pray for being unbeatable and whiter than white... any spot of red and you're out, it's quite dangerous, that!

[Elizabeth Sterling 0]

Nah, considering only the on-track stuff and dismissing the espionage saga McLaren are rightful WCC. The FIA decision was a fiasco anyway so...

I'm glad that Kimi won the WDC, I don't care much about the WCC honestly.

I've often wondered if they should drop it to remove some of the manufacturers getting drivers to play the softly collect points approach when they don't have a hope of the WDC, especially after recently learning that it actually only came along 7 years after the WDC. Sure, it often gives commendation to a team that has done a great job only to be robbed by one individual's brilliance or bad luck but would it be missed? Look back to Suzuka 99 - only Mclaren were on the pitwall celebrating at the end of the race. Do the teams really care about it?

[dribbler 6]

I've often wondered if they should drop it to remove some of the manufacturers getting drivers to play the softly collect points approach when they don't have a hope of the WDC, especially after recently learning that it actually only came along 7 years after the WDC. Sure, it often gives commendation to a team that has done a great job only to be robbed by one individual's brilliance or bad luck but would it be missed? Look back to Suzuka 99 - only Mclaren were on the pitwall celebrating at the end of the race. Do the teams really care about it?

Yes. It's the very reason Ferrari, for example go racing. Not only that but the marketing benefits that can be gleaned form shouting about a constructors title are huge. Renault exploited their back to back titles massively through their media campaign. This is before you factor in the financial rewards for winning.

[Elizabeth Sterling 0]

Yes. It's the very reason Ferrari, for example go racing. Not only that but the marketing benefits that can be gleaned form shouting about a constructors title are huge. Renault exploited their back to back titles massively through their media campaign. This is before you factor in the financial rewards for winning.

I guess the sponsors like it but the mechanics seem rather apathetic. Fair point on the Renault campaign too. For me it just seems to strengthen the argument for losing it really. It's a slightly desperate move but I'm sure every fan out there can't stand the way the sport has been perverted more and more in to the world's most expensive car advertisment.

[dribbler 6]

I guess the sponsors like it but the mechanics seem rather apathetic. Fair point on the Renault campaign too. For me it just seems to strengthen the argument for losing it really. It's a slightly desperate move but I'm sure every fan out there can't stand the way the sport has been perverted more and more in to the world's most expensive car advertisment.

Do we really see apathy from mechanics? When one of their cars is about to win/crashes out/is involved in an overtake etc we normally see huge emotion, don't we? The constructors championship is their opportunity to showcase their abilities.

Don't forget too that for the majority of tifosi, it's all about the cars. Take away the constructors championship and there would be riots in Maranello!

[DOF_power 0]

I guess the sponsors like it but the mechanics seem rather apathetic. Fair point on the Renault campaign too. For me it just seems to strengthen the argument for losing it really. It's a slightly desperate move but I'm sure every fan out there can't stand the way the sport has been perverted more and more in to the world's most expensive car advertisment.

The WCC means 60 million dollars + lower transportation costs next year + good publicity.

So what team doesn't want all that ?!

Even when F1 only had the WDC from 1950 till 1957, the teams/bosses like Ferrari belived that it was their their cars/team who were the real winner and the WDC was really their title.

As for "the world's most expensive car advertisment" that was what Grand Prix Racing was from when it was born in 1906 and until the late 1950s when the manufacturers left and it was reduced to a field of garagistes (excluding Ferrari).

So why are some people upset about this when until Cooper's success in 1959 manufacturers like Alfa-Romeo, Maserati, Ferrari, Lancia, MB have took everything ?!

And before the F1 GP format/formulas we had names like Renault (winners of the first official Grand Prix), Peugeot, Bugatti, Auto Union and again MB writing glorious pages of Grand Prix racing history.

The time of the garagistes is a shorter period in the history of GP Racing than the time of the manufacturers.

So what's the problem ?!

[Elizabeth Sterling 0]

My problem isn't that manufacturer backed teams win more frequently, it's that they are deliberately diminishing driver skill and other elements of the cars to play up their own engines. Surely you've not missed the threat of the GMPA offshoot or the idea to make the series single chassis with stabillity control, TC and LC? And as for the money, that's my point, it's the sponsors and the management that love it. The team all want to win the WDC so much more that when they win the WCC and lose the WDC they aren't exactly likely to party as we saw in Suzuka 99. And of course mechanics will be uspet when their driver goes out of the race or gets overtaken, they're on the same team and they want to do as well as possible. If there's anything to be won, even if it's only one point or pride they'll want to win it.

On a side note of course the numbers system is now linked to how a team did in the last WCC (Save 0, 1 and 2 of course) which of course is only a recent development but really spoils the character of the sport where teams had their own special numbers. If that were to be rectified I'd probably lighten up a whole load on the whole WCC thing for a while at least.

[cavallino 2]

(As an aside, has anyone calculated who would have won the WCC had Mclaren not been disqualified?)

Ferrari, 204 points to 203. Taht possibly made me even happier than Kimi's win

[Max Mosley 2]

My problem isn't that manufacturer backed teams win more frequently, it's that they are deliberately diminishing driver skill and other elements of the cars to play up their own engines. Surely you've not missed the threat of the GMPA offshoot or the idea to make the series single chassis with stabillity control, TC and LC? And as for the money, that's my point, it's the sponsors and the management that love it. The team all want to win the WDC so much more that when they win the WCC and lose the WDC they aren't exactly likely to party as we saw in Suzuka 99. And of course mechanics will be uspet when their driver goes out of the race or gets overtaken, they're on the same team and they want to do as well as possible. If there's anything to be won, even if it's only one point or pride they'll want to win it.

I think it would be better to simply get rid of the teams altogether, and the WCC too of course. As things stand, a lot of teams probably care more about the WCC than the WDC, unlike most fans. As a compromise, all teams using a single chassis would be better than today's F1. (Even TC doesn't matter all that much in practice imho.)

[dribbler 6]

I think it would be better to simply get rid of the teams altogether, and the WCC too of course. As things stand, a lot of teams probably care more about the WCC than the WDC, unlike most fans. As a compromise, all teams using a single chassis would be better than today's F1. (Even TC doesn't matter all that much in practice imho.)

I know that you're quite a staunch advocator of the single chassis and the demise of individual teams but i disagree. Each team has a unique personality which is an essential element in what makes the sport interesting. Look at the intense rivalry between the big guns and the discussion it creates amongst fans.

Although individual chassis can create dominance it also creates innovation. Surely F1 should always be the pinnacle?