Max: Hamilton May Be Negitive To F1

[Elizabeth Sterling 0]

I see your point, but he did score more points than any of the others in the second half of the season, with a different points system I think he would have won by more?

Yep. Under the previous points system he'd have taken it by fully six points.

[Fed up 0]

Yep. Under the previous points system he'd have taken it by fully six points.

Kimi would have been nowhere near the WDC if Ferrari adopted a similar equality policy as Mclaren - No matter what anyone says Massa was the equal of Kimi this season and, but for bad luck, would have had a chance of the WDC.

IMHO Ferrari engineered a WDC for Kimi by using cute team orders - For all those that say Kimi was the outstanding driver of the season, you are deluded as he was not!

[Rainmaster 7]

Kimi would have been nowhere near the WDC if Ferrari adopted a similar equality policy as Mclaren - No matter what anyone says Massa was the equal of Kimi this season and, but for bad luck, would have had a chance of the WDC.

IMHO Ferrari engineered a WDC for Kimi by using cute team orders - For all those that say Kimi was the outstanding driver of the season, you are deluded as he was not!

Yes if Mclaren hadn't adopted that policy then he probably wouldn't be champion, I do believe Ferrari had a similar policy up until Monza/Spa. But no one is saying Kimi was outstanding, he just made the least mistakes of them all at the critical point of the season, not a great way of winning, but a way of winning nontheless. Kimi has the most wins and fastest laps, that'll do for me with regards to deserving his title.

Massa was pretty much the equal of Kimi, it will be interesting to see how they compare next year.

[Elizabeth Sterling 0]

So... other people's opinions are just wrong compared to yours? Do you have anything to back this up?

[Autumnpuma 0]

What is fair? Kimi has six wins this year, the other main contenders have four, in my opinion he deserves it more. He did win his title on the track, as he put in far better performances than Hamilton in the final two races. From what I have read it will be difficult for Mclaren to win anyway. Lewis has plenty of time to shine.

Your argument would be spot on if we awarded the WDC on wins alone. Since we don't, I don't see the relevance of it. Ditto your notion of giving a person the WDC because it was 'his time to shine'. That's absurd.

Not sure it matters, he still didn't make as many mistakes as Lewis, which in my view means he beat him on the track. Kimi put himself in a position where he had the status over Massa, and therefore a better chance of winning races.

Again, this is irrelevant. If two cars are thrown out, and Lewis has the most points, then he is the champion, not Kimi. Was it fair that Jacky Ickx lost the '70 championship to a dead man? No, but point are points and that, for right or wrong, is how we determine a WDC.

[F1 FANatic 1]

If Kimi were to loose the title it would be ten thousand times worse for the sport then anything ever before it.

Anybody who think the FIA is biases toward Ferrari is kidding themselves. the FIA pretty were attached to Hamilton below the hip with their mouth to give him the championship and it didn't work. IF they were to give it to him 2 months after the race it would be catastrophic. The card Ferrari always have in their back pocket is to leave F1. If it were to do so over half of the F1 audience would just disappear and that is a hit to the coin purse even Burnie could not afford. and Really Ferrari could Afford to do pull out. They could break away and form their own series. And people would go there instead of F1 because there you measure yourself against Ferrari. Ferrari are like the Yankees, you play Major league ball to prove you're better then the Yankees, you race against Ferrari to do the same thing.

[schumi4ever 0]

In theory they can, but should they? What's your view on it? In all the years I've watched F1, I can't remember a single instance where a car was excluded from a race and the drivers didn't move up in points because of it.

well actually it happened this year. When Mclaren were stripped of all the constructors points none of the other teams gained points

[Fed up 0]

well actually it happened this year. When Mclaren were stripped of all the constructors points none of the other teams gained points

Yes, but they all gained a position

[schumi4ever 0]

Yes, but they all gained a position

really? I thought i read that everything stayed the same, just the points were taken off mclaren?

edit: just realised, how could they have gained positions if the drivers points weren't taken off? doesn't make any sense... all the classifications remained the same, nobody moved up. Just the points were taken off the mclaren team

edit again: just realised you are probably refering to the fact that everybody in the constructors table gained a position in which case yes you are right, but the drivers weren't affected which is what my original point was

[Skunk0001 0]

Brazil 1995:

After the race both Schumacher and Coulthard were disqualified when their Elf fuel was found not to match the chemical "finger-print" given by the oil company to the FIA at the start of the year. All the fuel companies must submit a "finger-print" sample of the type of fuel they intend to use during the season. If the sample does not match the fuel used at the actual races then it is seen as illegal. It was a harsh decision but teams and oil suppliers had been warned that the FIA intended to take a harsh line.

Later an FIA Court of Appeal would overturn the exclusions, accepting that the fuel had been different from that agreed and, therefore, illegal but being unable to decide if this had given the drivers an advantage as fuel experts present could not agree. The court decided that the drivers could not be held responsible and gave them back their points and instead blamed the teams, refusing to award Constructors' points and fining each $200,000.

From Italy came howls of protest from Ferrari which argued that the decision implied that a driver could win a race in an illegal car. The court had been full of good intention but had set a highly suspect precedent. But justice - in a fashion - had been done.

Based on that the teams could/should lose their points, but the drivers shouldnt.

Of course, nothing in F1 makes that much sense.

Its ironic (and amusing) that Ferrari objected, I wonder if they will take the same stance this time

[Elizabeth Sterling 0]

Especially considering that the year before one of their drivers had rather foolishly let slip that the cars had traction control.

[Jem of the Shire 0]

I think NOT awarding the championship to the points leader would make a joke of F1. I would feel bad for Kimi as well, but rules are rules. Kimi didn't win it on the track, he won it through mistakes made by Hamilton. Could we not say that if two cars are DQ'd Hamilton would win the title by mistakes from Williams and BMW?

I see your point, I just think it would be quite sad for the whole sport if a title was awarded to 1 driver then handed to someone else a couple of weeks after. Even as a Hamilton fan I'm content with Kimi being champion. He did win it on track, because Lewis made a couple of mistakes and Kimi didn't

Kimi would have been nowhere near the WDC if Ferrari adopted a similar equality policy as Mclaren - No matter what anyone says Massa was the equal of Kimi this season and, but for bad luck, would have had a chance of the WDC.

IMHO Ferrari engineered a WDC for Kimi by using cute team orders - For all those that say Kimi was the outstanding driver of the season, you are deluded as he was not!

You fail to mention that Kimi himself had 2 mechanical failures in races, which cost him 14 points. Massa outperformed Kimi on many occasions, but overall Kimi was the more impressive

[Rainmaster 7]

Your argument would be spot on if we awarded the WDC on wins alone. Since we don't, I don't see the relevance of it.

It is relevant because if you look at past championships then it is normally the guy with the most wins who gets it, I was simply stating that one of the most important factors when assessing the worthiness of a WDC is how many wins the driver has. Kimi has the most wins, that's why Kimi, to quote myself 'deserves it more' (my opinion). I know the WDC is decided on points and sometimes wins plays second fiddle to consistency.

Ditto your notion of giving a person the WDC because it was 'his time to shine'. That's absurd.

No, I was merely saying that Kimi deserved it more, then softening the blow to the Lewis fans by saying that he has plenty of time, it's not an argument for why he shouldn't be made champion - or why Kimi should retain his crown.

Again, this is irrelevant. If two cars are thrown out, and Lewis has the most points, then he is the champion, not Kimi. Was it fair that Jacky Ickx lost the '70 championship to a dead man? No, but point are points and that, for right or wrong, is how we determine a WDC.

Well of course you are technically correct, if two (surely it will be three?) cars are thrown out, then Lewis should be moved up, and under the current (second place rewarding) points system that would make him champion. But, I would still believe Raikkonen deserves it more, Lewis lost the championship through mistakes, bad strategy and ill judgement by Mclaren. To me, it would feel completely wrong having Lewis as champion after his performances in the last two races, Kimi did outperform him on track, as in made less mistakes. There is also the fact that, if this had happened mid-season that may affect the ruling, which shouldn't be the case of course, then again I don't like seeing racing decided in a courtroom. Despite this, if the FiA did make Lewis champion, I would not stop watching F1.

I'm also fairly convinced this was not intentional, they were just caught out by an extremely hot Brazilian GP.

Anyway, I think we are jumping ahead a little, we should wait to see if the evidence is there and the explanation of the findings. As for the actual crime itself, I'm not sure, can it proven? The FiA's sensor is located on the fuel pump, which measures the fuel as it goes into the car, not when it is inside car (the FiA rules relate to temperature inside the car). There is also an FiA approved seperate company which supplies the data to teams as to the upper and lower bounds for fuel temperature at a Grand Prix, which means there are two sets of information going around with regards to weather, both have FiA approval, which is slighly confusing for the teams - yes they are only supposed to use one set of information (which is shown on the timing screens, and supplied by the FiA's own weather radar), but it does give them more ground to argue from.

[Autumnpuma 0]

No, I was merely saying that Kimi deserved it more, then softening the blow to the Lewis fans by saying that he has plenty of time, it's not an argument for why he shouldn't be made champion - or why Kimi should retain his crown.

I always hear this 'deserved it more' argument and I think it's so much fantasy. Lewis may have lost the championship in Brazil, but he was the points leader for most of the season through consistency and running mistake free while the other teams and drivers made mistakes left and right. So, if we're calculating 'deserving' shouldn't we go on the strength of the whole season, not one race in Brazil?

Well of course you are technically correct, if two (surely it will be three?) cars are thrown out, then Lewis should be moved up, and under the current (second place rewarding) points system that would make him champion. But, I would still believe Raikkonen deserves it more, Lewis lost the championship through mistakes, bad strategy and ill judgement by Mclaren. To me, it would feel completely wrong having Lewis as champion after his performances in the last two races, Kimi did outperform him on track, as in made less mistakes. There is also the fact that, if this had happened mid-season that may affect the ruling, which shouldn't be the case of course, then again I don't like seeing racing decided in a courtroom. Despite this, if the FiA did make Lewis champion, I would not stop watching F1.

Technically correct is the only important kind of correct, isn't it?

Anyway, I think we are jumping ahead a little, we should wait to see if the evidence is there and the explanation of the findings. As for the actual crime itself, I'm not sure, can it proven? The FiA's sensor is located on the fuel pump, which measures the fuel as it goes into the car, not when it is inside car (the FiA rules relate to temperature inside the car). There is also an FiA approved seperate company which supplies the data to teams as to the upper and lower bounds for fuel temperature at a Grand Prix, which means there are two sets of information going around with regards to weather, both have FiA approval, which is slighly confusing for the teams - yes they are only supposed to use one set of information (which is shown on the timing screens, and supplied by the FiA's own weather radar), but it does give them more ground to argue from.

I imagine it will all come out in the appeal. As long as the result of the appeal is impartial and based on solid fact, not supposition, I will be content with it. The only thing that would tip my boat of contentment is if McLaren won the appeal, two cars were disqualified, and the points leader wasn't awarded the WDC. If that were to happen, F1 would become a farce.

[AutoRacer5 0]

Y'know what, Max? Y'know what else is negative to F1?

YOUR FACE!

[Rainmaster 7]

I always hear this 'deserved it more' argument and I think it's so much fantasy. Lewis may have lost the championship in Brazil, but he was the points leader for most of the season through consistency and running mistake free while the other teams and drivers made mistakes left and right. So, if we're calculating 'deserving' shouldn't we go on the strength of the whole season, not one race in Brazil?

Yes, if the season was two races shorter then Lewis would have it by some way over Raikkonen, sadly like you say we are including the whole season, which means Raikkonen performed better. I think that's right, technically at least. The WDC isn't based on who was leading the standings longest, consistancy is great as long as you can keep it up, which the great rookie did not.

Technically correct is the only important kind of correct, isn't it?

Yes, technically it is . However sometimes you can look at a result, and then you can scrutinise the system which produced that result, and perhaps realise that system is flawed and that therefore the result is flawed.

I imagine it will all come out in the appeal. As long as the result of the appeal is impartial and based on solid fact, not supposition, I will be content with it. The only thing that would tip my boat of contentment is if McLaren won the appeal, two cars were disqualified, and the points leader wasn't awarded the WDC. If that were to happen, F1 would become a farce.

Yes same here with regards to Mclaren winning and the points leader not being awarded the WDC. As for 'F1 would become a farce' - you must mean even more of a farce than it already is.

[goferrarigo 0]

Brazil 1995:

Based on that the teams could/should lose their points, but the drivers shouldnt.

Of course, nothing in F1 makes that much sense.

Its ironic (and amusing) that Ferrari objected, I wonder if they will take the same stance this time

From wikipedia: H

[chennaiguy 0]

if lewis is made champ thru court then it will be interesting to see whether ferrari steps down from the sport or make mclaren stepdown next year due to using ferrari details....so only one team will goto next year (if lewis is made champ)

[goferrarigo 0]

if lewis is made champ thru court then it will be interesting to see whether ferrari steps down from the sport or make mclaren stepdown next year due to using ferrari details....so only one team will goto next year (if lewis is made champ)

I don't think they would be such an upheval if Lewis is given championship status...

[YHR 0]

Totally absurd! What stands out for me are two issues:

Excuse me, but isn't this manufacturing a result? If two cars are excluded, then Hamilton gets fourth and the points of fourth. Too bad for Kimi, I suppose, but that's what happens when cars are disqualified. How can Max possibly justify Hamilton being the 2007 points leader and NOT get the WDC??

Ideas? Now they are looking for ideas? If they find a similar idea on the McLaren that is on the Ferrari they will dock McLaren points? Absurd!! Half the grid uses ideas gotten from other teams! When, say, Red Bull hired Adrien Newey, you can bet some McLaren ideas are on the Red Bull. How the hell can Max justify this?

I'm starting to consider parting ways with Formula 1. This is getting completely absurd.

Careful, it is getting awfully crowded on this side of the line. A real shame too, because the racing on the track was brilliant, but we get these moldy men trying their best to keep their egos at the top.

[elgo 1]

W-WHAT??????????They'll be looking for ideas!!!???Max is definitely going senile...

So what do McLaren have to build to make it so different from Ferrari?A truck?

[pabloh20 1]

W-WHAT??????????They'll be looking for ideas!!!???Max is definitely going senile...

So what do McLaren have to build to make it so different from Ferrari?A truck?

Ermmmm, what do you mean 'going' ? I also resent the implication that he had any faculties in the first place.