More Shameless Hypocrites Devoid Of Any Integrity...

[Sixten 0]

To all Ferrari fans: this post is written under the influence of mushrooms and/or any other hallucinatory substances you can imagine of (as all pathetic McLaren fans are fond of using them all the time), so don't bother replying or even reading what follows. Just go on with your happy F1 life...

There are too many posts covering the incidents of Ferrari's illegal flexible floor during the Australian GP and how no penalty was imposed (no points reduction, no nothing), or how McLaren's gearbox was found legal by the FIA but still they imposed a fine on McLaren...

There are also many posts covering in every aspect the whole 'Stepneygate' saga, which is not over yet and we will be hearing more about it in the future. Although there was absolutely no evidence (of knowing as a team or using any Ferrari data), McLaren was penalised as a team, while those who should be penalised (Stepney, Coughlan, Alonso, De La Rossa) escaped any punishment up to now.

Then, on October 31st, Mr. Mosley talking on BBC accepts that "...you're not going to find on the McLaren a part that was designed by Ferrari", and "What you may find are ideas ... So we will be looking for the ideas"!!! Ideas (!!!) my dear friends and neighbours!!! So, McLaren was stripped of all championship points (and suffered much more than this) because of ideas that may be found on their car???

Moreover, a few days earlier, during another interview, the same Mr. Mosley admits he has "a very different relationship with McLaren boss Ron Dennis to the one he shares with Ferrari president Luca di Montezemolo"!!! "I use my neutrality with a huge amount of responsibility and stay in close contact with Ferrari to assure them that no British 'mafia' or cartel tries to take advantage of them"...

So, shall we suppose that Ferrari technicians are the only ones blessed of having ideas on planet Earth? And what is an idea? The car as a whole was Ford's idea, wasn't it? Is it legal for other teams to use this vehicle? And who's idea was the serial gearbox? How can everybody use one man's idea? And what about fuel? Who was the first to come up with the idea? Otto? Lenoir? Maybach? Daimler? Wankel? Should the teams use coal instead (since those engines were not their ideas)? Oh, sorry, even coal was somebody else's idea... "Ideas" is a very convenient way to impeach anything we want to anyone!... That simple!...

Now, let me get one more plate of those delicious mushrooms...

Remember how some people suspected that Stepney and Coughlan got those Ferrari documents in order to get a new job to some other team (not McLaren)? Do you happen to remember which this team was?... Does Mr. Brawn's new job tell you anything? Does the fact that Stepney, Coughlan and Brawn are all Englishmen (no offense to English people) and were buddies in the past tell you anything?... Ahhh, those mushrooms seem to work so well for me!...

Yet another plate of them!...

Now, McLaren's appeal for the Brazilian GP was announced 'inadmissible' a good 24 hours after Thursday's hearing!!! It was announced 'inadmissible' after the hearing!!! Wow! That really beats me! It seems that FIA are the Lords of Justice! They claim they had "sufficient doubt as to both the temperature of the fuel on board the car and to the true ambient temperature"!!! So, they have sufficient doubt to their Technical Delegate who measured and recorded the fuel temperature and reported the facts in black and white!!!

Just bear in mind that it wasn't McLaren who brought this to light, but the FIA Technical Delegate and that neither McLaren nor Lewis wanted to be handed the title, instead they asked for a rules clarification...

At this point, I would like to agree with Mr. Montezemolo's statement that this year's titles (both of them) will be forever tainted. They sure will my dear President...

Well, I seriously believe that FIA (and Mr. Mosley particularly) should undergo an investigation by an independent judicial authority and there is nothing humorous about that... I really mean it...

Now, I'm off for more mushrooms...

P.S. I am really considering of changing my display name to "The Mushroom"...

[Jean Todt 4]

To all Ferrari fans: this post is written under the influence of mushrooms and/or any other hallucinatory substances you can imagine of (as all pathetic McLaren fans are fond of using them all the time), so don't bother replying or even reading what follows. Just go on with your happy F1 life...

There are too many posts covering the incidents of Ferrari's illegal flexible floor during the Australian GP and how no penalty was imposed (no points reduction, no nothing), or how McLaren's gearbox was found legal by the FIA but still they imposed a fine on McLaren...

There are also many posts covering in every aspect the whole 'Stepneygate' saga, which is not over yet and we will be hearing more about it in the future. Although there was absolutely no evidence (of knowing as a team or using any Ferrari data), McLaren was penalised as a team, while those who should be penalised (Stepney, Coughlan, Alonso, De La Rossa) escaped any punishment up to now.

Then, on October 31st, Mr. Mosley talking on BBC accepts that "...you're not going to find on the McLaren a part that was designed by Ferrari", and "What you may find are ideas ... So we will be looking for the ideas"!!! Ideas (!!!) my dear friends and neighbours!!! So, McLaren was stripped of all championship points (and suffered much more than this) because of ideas that may be found on their car???

Moreover, a few days earlier, during another interview, the same Mr. Mosley admits he has "a very different relationship with McLaren boss Ron Dennis to the one he shares with Ferrari president Luca di Montezemolo"!!! "I use my neutrality with a huge amount of responsibility and stay in close contact with Ferrari to assure them that no British 'mafia' or cartel tries to take advantage of them"...

So, shall we suppose that Ferrari technicians are the only ones blessed of having ideas on planet Earth? And what is an idea? The car as a whole was Ford's idea, wasn't it? Is it legal for other teams to use this vehicle? And who's idea was the serial gearbox? How can everybody use one man's idea? And what about fuel? Who was the first to come up with the idea? Otto? Lenoir? Maybach? Daimler? Wankel? Should the teams use coal instead (since those engines were not their ideas)? Oh, sorry, even coal was somebody else's idea... "Ideas" is a very convenient way to impeach anything we want to anyone!... That simple!...

Now, let me get one more plate of those delicious mushrooms...

Remember how some people suspected that Stepney and Coughlan got those Ferrari documents in order to get a new job to some other team (not McLaren)? Do you happen to remember which this team was?... Does Mr. Brawn's new job tell you anything? Does the fact that Stepney, Coughlan and Brawn are all Englishmen (no offense to English people) and were buddies in the past tell you anything?... Ahhh, those mushrooms seem to work so well for me!...

Yet another plate of them!...

Now, McLaren's appeal for the Brazilian GP was announced 'inadmissible' a good 24 hours after Thursday's hearing!!! It was announced 'inadmissible' after the hearing!!! Wow! That really beats me! It seems that FIA are the Lords of Justice! They claim they had "sufficient doubt as to both the temperature of the fuel on board the car and to the true ambient temperature"!!! So, they have sufficient doubt to their Technical Delegate who measured and recorded the fuel temperature and reported the facts in black and white!!!

Just bear in mind that it wasn't McLaren who brought this to light, but the FIA Technical Delegate and that neither McLaren nor Lewis wanted to be handed the title, instead they asked for a rules clarification...

At this point, I would like to agree with Mr. Montezemolo's statement that this year's titles (both of them) will be forever tainted. They sure will my dear President...

Well, I seriously believe that FIA (and Mr. Mosley particularly) should undergo an investigation by an independent judicial authority and there is nothing humorous about that... I really mean it...

Now, I'm off for more mushrooms...

P.S. I am really considering of changing my display name to "The Mushroom"...

yep. They are not the only ones with brain.

[mikathegreat2 2]

It seems that sixten has highlighted all of the bad things about the 07 season & some views we did'nt know about! I'm surprised at the Ron Dennis interview with BBC & him saying there MAY be Ferrari data on the McLaren!

[Sixten 0]

It seems that sixten has highlighted all of the bad things about the 07 season & some views we did'nt know about! I'm surprised at the Ron Dennis interview with BBC & him saying there MAY be Ferrari data on the McLaren!

Correction: that was Max Mosley's interview...

And we could spend the whole day writing more bad things about the '07 season...

[mikathegreat2 2]

Correction: that was Max Mosley's interview...

And we could spend the whole day writing more bad things about the '07 season...

D'oh! For me the worst thing of the season was Michael Schumaher handing Ron Dennis the Constructors trophy at the EU GP ! Still dissapoints me to this day aswell as the pit stop incident at the Hungarian GP which gots many people, mainly AleHop pretty angry & even racism was thrown at Hamilton's family ! What's currenty on my mind is why are Renault involved in the spy scandal or saga??

[Jean Todt 4]

It seems that sixten has highlighted all of the bad things about the 07 season & some views we did'nt know about! I'm surprised at the Ron Dennis interview with BBC & him saying there MAY be Ferrari data on the McLaren!

[mikathegreat2 2]

Exactly!

[Sixten 0]

D'oh! For me the worst thing of the season was Michael Schumaher handing Ron Dennis the Constructors trophy at the EU GP ! Still dissapoints me to this day aswell as the pit stop incident at the Hungarian GP which gots many people, mainly AleHop pretty angry & even racism was thrown at Hamilton's family ! What's currenty on my mind is why are Renault involved in the spy scandal or saga??

The Renault spy incident is a totally different one from Stepneygate, my friend... McLaren's technical data were found inside Renault's mainframe computer and no Renault employee has denied the facts so far...

[tifosi too! 0]

Looking forward to your "Even More Shameless Hypocrites Devoid Of Any Integrity..." thread which I suppose you are already preparing!

[Rainmaster 7]

Looking forward to your "Even More Shameless Hypocrites Devoid Of Any Integrity..." thread which I suppose you are already preparing!

Yep, it's gonna be a trilogy

Anyway yeah everyone's a hypocrite.

[Max Mosley 2]

Anyway yeah everyone's a hypocrite.

Don't insult me. You're not perfect yourself....

[Sixten 0]

Looking forward to your "Even More Shameless Hypocrites Devoid Of Any Integrity..." thread which I suppose you are already preparing!

Hmmm... Now that I think of it...

[Rainmaster 7]

Don't insult me. You're not perfect yourself....

I am perfect though!

[dribbler 6]

P.S. I am really considering of changing my display name to "The Mushroom"...

Do it. Lock yourself in a dark room at the same time.

[Sixten 0]

Do it. Lock yourself in a dark room at the same time.

Nah... This is a red-fan pet practice and we (the pathetic McLaren fans) might be accused of stealing other people's ideas!!!

So, let's just stick to the mushrooms...

[wapi 4]

There are too many posts covering the incidents of Ferrari's illegal flexible floor during the Australian GP and how no penalty was imposed (no points reduction, no nothing), or how McLaren's gearbox was found legal by the FIA but still they imposed a fine on McLaren...

Ferrari floor passed inspection by FIA before Australian GP. After MC expressed concern that FIA tests might be improved it was done and Ferrari had to change design of the floor to be able to pass newly developed test. On the contrary, McLaren was obliged to certify gearbox. It was not question of conformance, they were fined because they neglected procedure and raced with non-certified car part.

Moreover, a few days earlier, during another interview, the same Mr. Mosley admits he has "a very different relationship with McLaren boss Ron Dennis to the one he shares with Ferrari president Luca di Montezemolo"!!! "I use my neutrality with a huge amount of responsibility and stay in close contact with Ferrari to assure them that no British 'mafia' or cartel tries to take advantage of them"...

I seem to remember that another English mafia man (Ecclestone) was prefering Lewis Hamilton as champion. I would call it very inappropriate statement coming from F1 top manager. Mosley was at least fair enough not to say anything like it. Do you remember when Bernie said that he would suggest to McLaren not to appeal because they might end up with harsher penalty? Is he allowed to do that?

He influenced stewards not to punish golden boy for unfair and unlawful driving behind safety car in Shanghai. Stewards tried to ignore it but they had to rule when spectator video became public. So what was ruling - that he is not guilty because of bad conditions on the track. If the conditions were not bad, safety car would not be needed at all.

Everybody was very careful to avoid punishing Lewis Hamilton to avoid deciding championship off the track.

Remember how some people suspected that Stepney and Coughlan got those Ferrari documents in order to get a new job to some other team (not McLaren)? Do you happen to remember which this team was?... Does Mr. Brawn's new job tell you anything? Does the fact that Stepney, Coughlan and Brawn are all Englishmen (no offense to English people) and were buddies in the past tell you anything?...

Coughlan was not Stepney's nor Brawn's buddy.

Well Mosley, Ecclestone, Dennis are also Englishman. Sport is dominated by English! What does it prove except that McLaren did not react in the proper way. It was proven beyond reasonable doubt that McLaren management knew that their designer is in posession of data that he should not have. When they learned it they should have notified Ferrari and FIA what is happening. Instead thay were quiet about it until it was discovered because of the morality of copy shop owner. If I was team manager of any team I would not hire person that comes with loads of stolen data. Because he would do same thing to my team. So, employing that strategy proves that those guys were not exactly bright minds.

Now, McLaren's appeal for the Brazilian GP was announced 'inadmissible' a good 24 hours after Thursday's hearing!!! It was announced 'inadmissible' after the hearing!!! Wow! That really beats me! It seems that FIA are the Lords of Justice! They claim they had "sufficient doubt as to both the temperature of the fuel on board the car and to the true ambient temperature"!!! So, they have sufficient doubt to their Technical Delegate who measured and recorded the fuel temperature and reported the facts in black and white!!!

It is not question of fuel temperature but ambient temperature. On the hearing Williams, BMW, Ferrari provided their telemetry data which showed fuel temperatures in the tank and on the way to engine and ambient temperatures. McLaren refused to do so! Why??? Because that would prove that ambient temperature was in fact lower than technical delegate recorded and that fuel temperatures in the car were not significantly below ambient temperature.

Just bear in mind that it wasn't McLaren who brought this to light, but the FIA Technical Delegate and that neither McLaren nor Lewis wanted to be handed the title, instead they asked for a rules clarification...

You ask for rules clarification on Technical Working Group and not on ICA. McLaren was going desperate to win title for Lewis, but unfortunatelly they messed up procedure. If you see quotes of McLaren lawyers than it is very obvious that they asked for BMW and Williams disqualification.

There is Sam Michaels (another Englishmen) report on what happened on the ICA.

Some Ferrari fan on mushrooms might say that English dominated FIA had to punish McLaren after such evidence was found but they did it so reluctantly and being careful not to damage Hamilton's chances to win championship. When Alonso damaged Hamilton (pit stop incident) he was punished, but when Hamilton broke rules behind safety car, excuse was found. Also, after admiting that he might got into way of Raikonnen's fast laps he was not punished in order "not to decide championship in court".

Finnaly Act of God and his inexperience had cost him the title, but McLaren suddenly decided that it is OK to decide title in court :-)))

Their credibility went down beyond belief.

[spitfire 0]

"but McLaren suddenly decided that it is OK to decide title in court :-)))

Their credibility went down beyond belief.

So by that logic does that mean Ferrari must be OK with winning titles by receiving "special" treatment from Mosely and the FIA?

Of course we all know Ferrari are OK with that because they have had special treatment for years!! Every Ferrari title in the past 10 years is tainted as far as I am concerned because of their blatant disregard for the sporting regulations!

[goferrarigo 0]

Welcome to the forums wapi,

and spitfire, All tittles won by Ferrari are tainted in tha past 10 years??? Please tell me how....

[KoolMonkey 0]

I recall reading an article a week or two ago, about the Ferrari movable floor situation. Either this article contained comments by the FIA or Max concerning this issue, I don't recall. If I remember correctly 3 teams had movable floors. Even McLaren.

I see no one stating Renault's mass damper system was illegal. Rather it was within a grey area that all the teams seem to push. Rather than a flat out infraction, for let's say having TC in a car when it was banned, or let's say a team having a Turbo attached to their engine, the moveable floor situation was not so black & white. Who remembers the RBR flexi wing situation. That was another grey area thing. The point is all the cars at the time passed the scrutinizing. This sport has aways introduced new rules, new tests and demands on the cars. I don't recall anything ever being retro-active. Rather a rule is passed, and from that point on, all cars must adhere to that rule.

So on this basis, how was Ferrari's floor actually illegal? And do you still consider it illegal, if McLaren themselves had a similar scheme on their car.

I would love to be able to link the article, but I can't seem to find it.

[spitfire 0]

Welcome to the forums wapi,

and spitfire, All tittles won by Ferrari are tainted in tha past 10 years??? Please tell me how....

Well it's like this, and I apologize if I have upset anyone, I know it may seem I have overstated that a bit BUT....The sporting regulations state that teams are to run two drivers with equal treatment and that there are to be no number one drivers. Ferrari clearly ran Schumi as their number one and clearly gave him preferential treatment over each of his "team mates" therefor they operated outside of the sporting regulations for each of the seasons that Schumi was their number one. They were at times outside the letter of the regulations and when they were not outside the letter of the regulations they were outside the spirit of the regulations. Hence it is all tainted. I don't care if everyone is doing it, that does not matter Ferrari should not have run Schumi as the number one, He should not have had the better car, his team mate should never have been "held" in the pits for a tenth longer, no one should ever have moved over for Schumi, by doing that competition between their own drivers is undermined and that robs ALL of us of an actual race. Furthermore those actions also rob Formula One of any integrity as a sport and that is why it is deemed illegal under the sporting regulations to give one driver preferential treatment. Does that make my statement a bit more understandable?

I think Ferrari make great cars and I think Schumi was a great driver but I also think all those titles are tainted.

[goferrarigo 0]

Well it's like this, and I apologize if I have upset anyone, I know it may seem I have overstated that a bit BUT....The sporting regulations state that teams are to run two drivers with equal treatment and that there are to be no number one drivers. Ferrari clearly ran Schumi as their number one and clearly gave him preferential treatment over each of his "team mates" therefor they operated outside of the sporting regulations for each of the seasons that Schumi was their number one. They were at times outside the letter of the regulations and when they were not outside the letter of the regulations they were outside the spirit of the regulations. Hence it is all tainted. I don't care if everyone is doing it, that does not matter Ferrari should not have run Schumi as the number one, He should not have had the better car, his team mate should never have been "held" in the pits for a tenth longer, no one should ever have moved over for Schumi, by doing that competition between their own drivers is undermined and that robs ALL of us of an actual race. Furthermore those actions also rob Formula One of any integrity as a sport and that is why it is deemed illegal under the sporting regulations to give one driver preferential treatment. Does that make my statement a bit more understandable?

I think Ferrari make great cars and I think Schumi was a great driver but I also think all those titles are tainted.

I nderstand where your coming from. I don't agree with you, but it does make you seem more reasonable than a Ferrari hater....

[cavallino 2]

The sporting regulations state that teams are to run two drivers with equal treatment and that there are to be no number one drivers.

No they don't, obviously you haven't bothered reading them.

each of the seasons that Schumi was their number one.

Care to justify the 'each of the seasons' part?

Especially 1999, I'd love to hear about that

outside the spirit of the regulations.

I am quite suer the holy ghost who guards the regulations is perfectly amenable to team orders

(Seriously, WTF? Where do the regulations even imply anything like that?)

He should not have had the better car

Umm proof?

, his team mate should never have been "held" in the pits for a tenth longer,

Ahh yes, that will stand up in the court of law. You're obviously a lawyer, with your closely argued, well justified statements backed by solid indisputable evidence.

no one should ever have moved over for Schumi,

And yet you have no problem with Schumi moving over for others?

by doing that competition between their own drivers is undermined and that robs ALL of us of an actual race.

The race is between teams. It always has been. Go watch something else (A1) if you want a race solely between drivers.

Furthermore those actions also rob Formula One of any integrity as a sport and that is why it is deemed illegal under the sporting regulations to give one driver preferential treatment. Does that make my statement a bit more understandable?

No, it's still utter bollocks.

[cavallino 2]

*sigh* I actually wasted precious moments of my time typing that?

[dribbler 6]

Well it's like this, and I apologize if I have upset anyone, I know it may seem I have overstated that a bit BUT....The sporting regulations state that teams are to run two drivers with equal treatment and that there are to be no number one drivers. Ferrari clearly ran Schumi as their number one and clearly gave him preferential treatment over each of his "team mates" therefor they operated outside of the sporting regulations for each of the seasons that Schumi was their number one. They were at times outside the letter of the regulations and when they were not outside the letter of the regulations they were outside the spirit of the regulations. Hence it is all tainted. I don't care if everyone is doing it, that does not matter Ferrari should not have run Schumi as the number one, He should not have had the better car, his team mate should never have been "held" in the pits for a tenth longer, no one should ever have moved over for Schumi, by doing that competition between their own drivers is undermined and that robs ALL of us of an actual race. Furthermore those actions also rob Formula One of any integrity as a sport and that is why it is deemed illegal under the sporting regulations to give one driver preferential treatment. Does that make my statement a bit more understandable?

I think Ferrari make great cars and I think Schumi was a great driver but I also think all those titles are tainted.

More holes than a whore house.

[Fed up 0]

Well it's like this, and I apologize if I have upset anyone, I know it may seem I have overstated that a bit BUT....The sporting regulations state that teams are to run two drivers with equal treatment and that there are to be no number one drivers. Ferrari clearly ran Schumi as their number one and clearly gave him preferential treatment over each of his "team mates" therefor they operated outside of the sporting regulations for each of the seasons that Schumi was their number one. They were at times outside the letter of the regulations and when they were not outside the letter of the regulations they were outside the spirit of the regulations. Hence it is all tainted. I don't care if everyone is doing it, that does not matter Ferrari should not have run Schumi as the number one, He should not have had the better car, his team mate should never have been "held" in the pits for a tenth longer, no one should ever have moved over for Schumi, by doing that competition between their own drivers is undermined and that robs ALL of us of an actual race. Furthermore those actions also rob Formula One of any integrity as a sport and that is why it is deemed illegal under the sporting regulations to give one driver preferential treatment. Does that make my statement a bit more understandable?

I think Ferrari make great cars and I think Schumi was a great driver but I also think all those titles are tainted.

Good points, but the assumptions that you make are that Michael's team mates were as fast as him in the same car - With the exception of Massa and, on occassion Ruebens & Piquet, Michael was significantly faster than his team mates, so the argument flipped on its side could be that Ferrari would have been slowing Michael so that his team mate could keep up.

Michael hasn't won 7 WDC because his team mates have been asked to go slow