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Sixten

More Shameless Hypocrites Devoid Of Any Integrity...

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To all Ferrari fans: this post is written under the influence of mushrooms and/or any other hallucinatory substances you can imagine of (as all pathetic McLaren fans are fond of using them all the time), so don't bother replying or even reading what follows. Just go on with your happy F1 life...

There are too many posts covering the incidents of Ferrari's illegal flexible floor during the Australian GP and how no penalty was imposed (no points reduction, no nothing), or how McLaren's gearbox was found legal by the FIA but still they imposed a fine on McLaren...

There are also many posts covering in every aspect the whole 'Stepneygate' saga, which is not over yet and we will be hearing more about it in the future. Although there was absolutely no evidence (of knowing as a team or using any Ferrari data), McLaren was penalised as a team, while those who should be penalised (Stepney, Coughlan, Alonso, De La Rossa) escaped any punishment up to now.

Then, on October 31st, Mr. Mosley talking on BBC accepts that "...you're not going to find on the McLaren a part that was designed by Ferrari", and "What you may find are ideas ... So we will be looking for the ideas"!!! Ideas (!!!) my dear friends and neighbours!!! So, McLaren was stripped of all championship points (and suffered much more than this) because of ideas that may be found on their car???

Moreover, a few days earlier, during another interview, the same Mr. Mosley admits he has "a very different relationship with McLaren boss Ron Dennis to the one he shares with Ferrari president Luca di Montezemolo"!!! "I use my neutrality with a huge amount of responsibility and stay in close contact with Ferrari to assure them that no British 'mafia' or cartel tries to take advantage of them"...

So, shall we suppose that Ferrari technicians are the only ones blessed of having ideas on planet Earth? And what is an idea? The car as a whole was Ford's idea, wasn't it? Is it legal for other teams to use this vehicle? And who's idea was the serial gearbox? How can everybody use one man's idea? And what about fuel? Who was the first to come up with the idea? Otto? Lenoir? Maybach? Daimler? Wankel? Should the teams use coal instead (since those engines were not their ideas)? Oh, sorry, even coal was somebody else's idea... "Ideas" is a very convenient way to impeach anything we want to anyone!... That simple!...

Now, let me get one more plate of those delicious mushrooms...

Remember how some people suspected that Stepney and Coughlan got those Ferrari documents in order to get a new job to some other team (not McLaren)? Do you happen to remember which this team was?... Does Mr. Brawn's new job tell you anything? Does the fact that Stepney, Coughlan and Brawn are all Englishmen (no offense to English people) and were buddies in the past tell you anything?... Ahhh, those mushrooms seem to work so well for me!...

Yet another plate of them!...

Now, McLaren's appeal for the Brazilian GP was announced 'inadmissible' a good 24 hours after Thursday's hearing!!! It was announced 'inadmissible' after the hearing!!! Wow! That really beats me! It seems that FIA are the Lords of Justice! They claim they had "sufficient doubt as to both the temperature of the fuel on board the car and to the true ambient temperature"!!! So, they have sufficient doubt to their Technical Delegate who measured and recorded the fuel temperature and reported the facts in black and white!!!

Just bear in mind that it wasn't McLaren who brought this to light, but the FIA Technical Delegate and that neither McLaren nor Lewis wanted to be handed the title, instead they asked for a rules clarification...

At this point, I would like to agree with Mr. Montezemolo's statement that this year's titles (both of them) will be forever tainted. They sure will my dear President...

Well, I seriously believe that FIA (and Mr. Mosley particularly) should undergo an investigation by an independent judicial authority and there is nothing humorous about that... I really mean it...

Now, I'm off for more mushrooms...

P.S. I am really considering of changing my display name to "The Mushroom"...

Did the mushrooms tell you the fuel temperature of the McLarens in Brazil?

Just, joking, of course. You are among friends here and your words are exactly in agreement with the most vociferous members of this forum.

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Yep, it's gonna be a trilogy :lol:

Anyway yeah everyone's a hypocrite.

not everyone you shameless pevert devoid of any underwear.

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Well it's like this, and I apologize if I have upset anyone, I know it may seem I have overstated that a bit BUT....The sporting regulations state that teams are to run two drivers with equal treatment and that there are to be no number one drivers. Ferrari clearly ran Schumi as their number one and clearly gave him preferential treatment over each of his "team mates" therefor they operated outside of the sporting regulations for each of the seasons that Schumi was their number one. They were at times outside the letter of the regulations and when they were not outside the letter of the regulations they were outside the spirit of the regulations. Hence it is all tainted. I don't care if everyone is doing it, that does not matter Ferrari should not have run Schumi as the number one, He should not have had the better car, his team mate should never have been "held" in the pits for a tenth longer, no one should ever have moved over for Schumi, by doing that competition between their own drivers is undermined and that robs ALL of us of an actual race. Furthermore those actions also rob Formula One of any integrity as a sport and that is why it is deemed illegal under the sporting regulations to give one driver preferential treatment. Does that make my statement a bit more understandable?

I think Ferrari make great cars and I think Schumi was a great driver but I also think all those titles are tainted.

Don't worry about upsetting people. Other people have pointed out the letter of the law here, so you can debate that with them, if you want. Personally I think you are missing the bigger picture, which is that Schumi often had a better car than his title rivals! Are you really saying that Barrichello moving over for Schumi was a bigger help than having a Ferrari in 2002 or 2004? If not, then I would say that a great many WDCs are suspect, and the integrity of the sport is really in doubt.

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Wait wait wait... is there a suggestion going around that the FIA is somewhat biassed towards Ferrari?

*This is the sound of Elizabeth's world rocking violently*

And Lewis, apparently :lol:

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Ferrari floor passed inspection by FIA before Australian GP. After MC expressed concern that FIA tests might be improved it was done and Ferrari had to change design of the floor to be able to pass newly developed test. On the contrary, McLaren was obliged to certify gearbox. It was not question of conformance, they were fined because they neglected procedure and raced with non-certified car part.

First off, welcome to the forum wapi.

As I recall, only Ferrari and BMW had movable floors and McLaren did not asked FIA to improve its tests, but it asked if they (McLaren) could use a similar floor, to which FIA response was negative and the movable floor was announced as illegal. Still the question remains if FIA would have taken any action against Ferrari if McLaren had not brought up the situation. At a later time it was revealed (I think from Stepney) that Ferrari already knew that their design could cause them trouble, still they decided to use it hoping that FIA wouldn't find out...

You are right about McLaren's gearbox, however I believe that FIA's reaction should be analogous to that towards Ferrari's floor.

I seem to remember that another English mafia man (Ecclestone) was prefering Lewis Hamilton as champion. I would call it very inappropriate statement coming from F1 top manager. Mosley was at least fair enough not to say anything like it. Do you remember when Bernie said that he would suggest to McLaren not to appeal because they might end up with harsher penalty? Is he allowed to do that?

He influenced stewards not to punish golden boy for unfair and unlawful driving behind safety car in Shanghai. Stewards tried to ignore it but they had to rule when spectator video became public. So what was ruling - that he is not guilty because of bad conditions on the track. If the conditions were not bad, safety car would not be needed at all.

Only a few days before the Brazil GP hearing, Ecclestone stated that he would retire if Hamilton was to be pronounced champion...

Well Mosley, Ecclestone, Dennis are also Englishman. Sport is dominated by English! What does it prove except that McLaren did not react in the proper way. It was proven beyond reasonable doubt that McLaren management knew that their designer is in posession of data that he should not have. When they learned it they should have notified Ferrari and FIA what is happening. Instead thay were quiet about it until it was discovered because of the morality of copy shop owner. If I was team manager of any team I would not hire person that comes with loads of stolen data. Because he would do same thing to my team. So, employing that strategy proves that those guys were not exactly bright minds.

Don't forget that at least in two occasions it was Ron Dennis who informed FIA about information on the subject. That tells me that there were employees who knew what was going on (Coughlan, Alonso, De La Rossa) but the team had no information on that. That's why I believe that FIA should punish those individuals and not the team as a whole.

It is not question of fuel temperature but ambient temperature. On the hearing Williams, BMW, Ferrari provided their telemetry data which showed fuel temperatures in the tank and on the way to engine and ambient temperatures. McLaren refused to do so! Why??? Because that would prove that ambient temperature was in fact lower than technical delegate recorded and that fuel temperatures in the car were not significantly below ambient temperature.

I might remind you that a FIA Technical Delegate measure and recorded both fuel and ambient temperature. So, it's their employee's report that they (FIA) doubt. As of McLaren's refusal to supply their telemetry data, maybe they should be included to the next post "Even more shameless hypocrites devoid of any integrity" (tifosi too! be my guest ;) )...

You ask for rules clarification on Technical Working Group and not on ICA. McLaren was going desperate to win title for Lewis, but unfortunatelly they messed up procedure. If you see quotes of McLaren lawyers than it is very obvious that they asked for BMW and Williams disqualification.

You are also right about the TWG, however "the procedure was wrong" is not an answer. As I read somewhere an answer would be "McLaren are right" or "McLaren are wrong". Even BMW's Theissen insisted on a rules clarification on that matter after the hearing.

Finally, I don't believe there is such thing as Divine Intervention, neither do I believe that Hamilton would wait till the final GP to show us his lack of talent when he was almost inerrable right from his very first F1 GP.

...Ferrari clearly ran Schumi as their number one and clearly gave him preferential treatment over each of his "team mates" therefor they operated outside of the sporting regulations for each of the seasons that Schumi was their number one. They were at times outside the letter of the regulations and when they were not outside the letter of the regulations they were outside the spirit of the regulations...

As far as I know, there is no such regulation concerning No. 1 and 2 drivers. There is only a regulation about team orders. However, it is true that in Shoemaker's times most of the times the T-car was set according to his settings rather than Barrichello's. Moreover, although there is no such regulation, FIA assigned a supervisor on McLaren during the Brazilian GP to ensure equal treatment of their drivers!

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I'm bored.

As I recall, only Ferrari and BMW had movable floors and McLaren did not asked FIA to improve its tests, but it asked if they (McLaren) could use a similar floor, to which FIA response was negative and the movable floor was announced as illegal.

No, nothing was announced as illegal. A new test was introduced, and Mclaren had to change their floor as well.

Still the question remains if FIA would have taken any action against Ferrari if McLaren had not brought up the situation.

Still the question remains if FIA would have taken any action against Michelin if Ferrari had not brought up the situation.

Still the question remains if FIA would have taken any action against Renault if McLaren had not brought up the situation.

Still the question remains if FIA would have taken any action against Mclaren if Ferrari had not brought up the situation.

I leave it to your redoubtable intelligence to guess the respective incidents.

At a later time it was revealed (I think from Stepney) that Ferrari already knew that their design could cause them trouble, still they decided to use it hoping that FIA wouldn't find out...

They used a device that pushed the edge of the rules. Shoot them.

That tells me that there were employees who knew what was going on (Coughlan, Alonso, De La Rossa) but the team had no information on that.

No, the team wasn't involved. Only their highest paid employee, the race driver, the chief test driver, the chief designer, the managing director and the janitor. Oh, the janitor was innocent. There goes that argument :(

I might remind you that a FIA Technical Delegate measure and recorded both fuel and ambient temperature. So, it's their employee's report that they (FIA) doubt. As of McLaren's refusal to supply their telemetry data, maybe they should be included to the next post "Even more shameless hypocrites devoid of any integrity" (tifosi too! be my guest ;) )...

Read Sam Michael's interview on the ITV website. Unfortunately, the team of the most virtuous one is involved, so that dents the conspiracy argument somewhat.

Finally, I don't believe there is such thing as Divine Intervention, neither do I believe that Hamilton would wait till the final GP to show us his lack of talent when he was almost inerrable right from his very first F1 GP.

NEW CONSPIRACY ALERT NEW CONSPIRACY ALERT

THIS DESERVES A 100 NEW THREADS

However, it is true that in Shoemaker's times most of the times the T-car was set according to his settings rather than Barrichello's.

Care to list all the teams that did not set up their T cars for one of the drivers?

Moreover, although there is no such regulation, FIA assigned a supervisor on McLaren during the Brazilian GP to ensure equal treatment of their drivers!

Alonso accused his team of sabotaging his car, there are regulations against that...

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'Sup?

I'm back. Good to see Cav giving a class on how sarcasm should be used. Maure could learn a thing or two ;)

(No, I am not being sarcastic)

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'Sup?

I'm back. Good to see Cav giving a class on how sarcasm should be used. Maure could learn a thing or two ;)

(No, I am not being sarcastic)

I always thought being bald would save you time, but you've been away ages polishing it. Give me a brush any day! :lol:

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*sigh* I actually wasted precious moments of my time typing that?

I had other stuff to do, thus typing that line would only take a min while disintergrating his post would take longer... Also he will not change his mind and then there is no point in trying.

Like that quote, " A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject"

btw, i like the quote in your sig, Sixten

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I had other stuff to do, thus typing that line would only take a min while disintergrating his post would take longer... Also he will not change his mind and then there is no point in trying.

Like that quote, " A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject"

btw, i like the quote in your sig, Sixten

Well, so far in this forum I've been accused as a "mushroom-eater", "pathetic" and now I'm "fanatic". However, more than a few times I've made it clear that I just express my personal views and opinions (as you could easily find out reading my posts - I recently invited tifosi too! to start a thread titled "Even more shameless hypocrites... etc" concerning my favourite team - how "fanatic" does this one make me?)...

On the other hand, most Ferrari fans (at least in this forum) state their opinions as the one and only truth! Sure I won't change my mind beeing accused as a "mushroom-eater", "pathetic" or "fanatic", since I don't consider such statements as arguments, but rather as wisecracks from those who have nothing to say to support their opinions. I am always willing to accept any rational arguments (care to read my reply to wapi?)...

My sig applies to my posts as well as all other posts I read in here...

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And now, back to the arguments, since some people seem to have discretionary memory...

No, nothing was announced as illegal. A new test was introduced, and Mclaren had to change their floor as well.

From autosport.com

"Both Ferrari and BMW Sauber use a sprung device to mount the front section of floor on their cars. In Ferrari's case, at least, this part was already in use at the end of last season, as pointed out in autosport.com's 2006 Brazilian GP Technical Review."

Didn't I mention it was Ferrari and BMW?

From Planet-F1 (Editorial by Andrew Davies)

"The floor device that allowed the floor to flex up under load was particularly contentious because it worked on a similar principal to the air restrictor that got Toyota thrown out of the World Rally Championship in the mid-90s and banned the year after."

Any comparison between FIA's reaction towards Toyota and Ferrari?...

From grandprix.com

"There are also questions about the way that the FIA handled the question of the Ferrari floor at the Australian Grand Prix. The device was deemed to be illegal a few days after the Australian GP."

So, your intelligence tells you something different?... Well, it doesn't surprise me...

Still the question remains if FIA would have taken any action against Michelin if Ferrari had not brought up the situation.

Still the question remains if FIA would have taken any action against Renault if McLaren had not brought up the situation.

Still the question remains if FIA would have taken any action against Mclaren if Ferrari had not brought up the situation.

I leave it to your redoubtable intelligence to guess the respective incidents.

...and I'll leave the guessing game to yours...

They used a device that pushed the edge of the rules. Shoot them.

As I quoted, Toyota was thrown out of the WRC for a similar device...

No, the team wasn't involved. Only their highest paid employee, the race driver, the chief test driver, the chief designer, the managing director and the janitor. Oh, the janitor was innocent. There goes that argument :(

Didn't I already mention Alonso, De La Rosa and Coughlan? So, what's your point?... Regarding Taylor and Neale, they were shown 2 images (out of 780 pages) by Coughlan and still (if we are to believe their statements) they didn't know that was Ferrari's material. But even if we accept they knew, still those 5 persons are far from being the McLaren team...

BTW, does your intelligence really accept that Coughlan send his wife to a local copy store with 780 pages (that's about one and a half of the copy paper packs you use for your printer!) of highly classified stolen documents to scan them??? Does it really?... That's interesting!!!

Read Sam Michael's interview on the ITV website. Unfortunately, the team of the most virtuous one is involved, so that dents the conspiracy argument somewhat.

I did; as well as Theissen's statements:

"It has become quite clear that the regulations state a very precise difference of temperature of 10 degrees (centigrade) but they do not define precisely how and when the two reference points are taken," BMW team boss Mario Theissen told Autosport. "That is the issue and in my view it should not have gone to the Court of Appeal but to the Technical Working Group in order for the technical directors to come up with a clear regulation on how to do it in the future."

Care to list all the teams that did not set up their T cars for one of the drivers?

Most teams (including Ferrari in the past) set up their T-cars for each of their drivers in succession (race after race).

Alonso accused his team of sabotaging his car, there are regulations against that...

Did Alonso lodged a formal protest against his team? I can't recall anything like that...

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Well, so far in this forum I've been accused as a "mushroom-eater", "pathetic" and now I'm "fanatic". However, more than a few times I've made it clear that I just express my personal views and opinions (as you could easily find out reading my posts - I recently invited tifosi too! to start a thread titled "Even more shameless hypocrites... etc" concerning my favourite team - how "fanatic" does this one make me?)...

On the other hand, most Ferrari fans (at least in this forum) state their opinions as the one and only truth! Sure I won't change my mind beeing accused as a "mushroom-eater", "pathetic" or "fanatic", since I don't consider such statements as arguments, but rather as wisecracks from those who have nothing to say to support their opinions. I am always willing to accept any rational arguments (care to read my reply to wapi?)...

My sig applies to my posts as well as all other posts I read in here...

If you read the quote again, you are not willing to change the subject. You have hardly participated in any other discussion other than this, so how are you not obsessed with this???

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And now, back to the arguments, since some people seem to have discretionary memory...

From autosport.com

"Both Ferrari and BMW Sauber use a sprung device to mount the front section of floor on their cars. In Ferrari's case, at least, this part was already in use at the end of last season, as pointed out in autosport.com's 2006 Brazilian GP Technical Review."

Then why did Mclaren have to change their floor as well? Either they violated the 'spirit' of the rule, or they did not.

From Planet-F1 (Editorial by Andrew Davies)

"The floor device that allowed the floor to flex up under load was particularly contentious because it worked on a similar principal to the air restrictor that got Toyota thrown out of the World Rally Championship in the mid-90s and banned the year after."

Do you think quoting dubious tabloid sites verbatim automatically gives you credibility? I shudder to think what the rest of their articles are like if this is the quality of their 'editorials'. The Toyota device bypassed the air restrictor to the turbo and provided an estimated extra 50hp in cars that would usually produce 300hp. How on earth is that comparable to a device that may have allowed the floor to flex beyond the 'spirit' of the rules? I suppose the 'editor' saw the word 'spring' in both the articles, and used a leap of his ample imagination.

Any comparison between FIA's reaction towards Toyota and Ferrari?...

Research isn't google and wikipedia, you learn that in uni.

From grandprix.com

"There are also questions about the way that the FIA handled the question of the Ferrari floor at the Australian Grand Prix.

Weasel words. That website specializes in them, and throws in quotes from 'sources' for good measure. None of the information can ever be verified, conveniently enough.

The device was deemed to be illegal a few days after the Australian GP."

No it wasn't. Who deemed it illegal? Can you point me to an FIA communique that said that the device was illegal at the Australian grand prix? Just because a random dubious news website tells you something, it isn't necessarily true.

As I quoted, Toyota was thrown out of the WRC for a similar device...

Could you tell me the similarities? And no, google won't help you there.

Didn't I already mention Alonso, De La Rosa and Coughlan? So, what's your point?... Regarding Taylor and Neale, they were shown 2 images (out of 780 pages) by Coughlan and still (if we are to believe their statements) they didn't know that was Ferrari's material. But even if we accept they knew, still those 5 persons are far from being the McLaren team...

Thanks for reminding me of Rob Taylor and Paddy Lowe. And the fact that Alonso was clearly using the information to try and gain an advantange. If the 'team' doesn't know what goes on in the team, that is Mclaren's problem, not the FIA. Can you even see how ludicrous that defence is? Next time any team stands accused of ivolating a technical regulation, they can say that only the drivers, the chief designer, the managing director and the employees (I am sure Alonso was not planning to inflate the tyres himself) were involved, so the team is innocent.

BTW, does your intelligence really accept that Coughlan send his wife to a local copy store with 780 pages (that's about one and a half of the copy paper packs you use for your printer!) of highly classified stolen documents to scan them??? Does it really?... That's interesting!!!

I've heard of criminals doing more stupid things...

I did; as well as Theissen's statements:

"It has become quite clear that the regulations state a very precise difference of temperature of 10 degrees (centigrade) but they do not define precisely how and when the two reference points are taken," BMW team boss Mario Theissen told Autosport. "That is the issue and in my view it should not have gone to the Court of Appeal but to the Technical Working Group in order for the technical directors to come up with a clear regulation on how to do it in the future."

I don't remember waht I was replying to. All I know is Mclaren didn't have a leg to stand on , and they were trying to use dubious legal maneouvring to snatch the title away in an year like this, which is pathetic. As pathetic as their insistence that all they wanted was a rule clarification and then their lawyer went up and told everyone that Hamilton should be given the title.

Most teams (including Ferrari in the past) set up their T-cars for each of their drivers in succession (race after race).

No they didn't, especially not when there was a title at stake.

Did Alonso lodged a formal protest against his team? I can't recall anything like that...

The Spanish FIA chappie did after Alonso whined to the press...

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If you read the quote again, you are not willing to change the subject. You have hardly participated in any other discussion other than this, so how are you not obsessed with this???

It's the way you interpret things, my friend. If I did change the subject in a thread under a certain title, you could easily still accuse me of beeing off-topic. Wouldn't you? And excuse me if I don't participate on threads that I find less interersting...

Then why did Mclaren have to change their floor as well? Either they violated the 'spirit' of the rule, or they did not.

McLaren asked FIA if they could use a similar floor. They did not have to change theirs.

Do you think quoting dubious tabloid sites verbatim automatically gives you credibility? I shudder to think what the rest of their articles are like if this is the quality of their 'editorials'...

...

Weasel words. That website specializes in them, and throws in quotes from 'sources' for good measure. None of the information can ever be verified, conveniently enough.

...

Research isn't google and wikipedia, you learn that in uni.

...

No it wasn't. Who deemed it illegal? Can you point me to an FIA communique that said that the device was illegal at the Australian grand prix? Just because a random dubious news website tells you something, it isn't necessarily true.

See? That's what I mean when I say that Ferrari fans believe they are the only blessed of knowing the truth. Three different sources are all dubious tabloids using weasel words! I'd be glad to hear from you the sources you consider credible, my friend. Do you have any inside information that we don't? If so, please share your knowledge with us. Why won't you?

I've heard of criminals doing more stupid things...

There is a lot to discuss on criminals' psychology and why they 'choose' to do 'stupid things'. And that's exactly what I believe in Coughlan's case...

I don't remember waht I was replying to. All I know is Mclaren didn't have a leg to stand on , and they were trying to use dubious legal maneouvring to snatch the title away in an year like this, which is pathetic. As pathetic as their insistence that all they wanted was a rule clarification and then their lawyer went up and told everyone that Hamilton should be given the title.

As I mentioned, some people have descretionary memory... All you had to do was to go back and read your post, my friend...

The Spanish FIA chappie did after Alonso whined to the press...

Ah, 'whined to the press'!... And I thought that if a protest is not lodged formally it is 'inadmissible'... But it seems that in some cases 'whinnig to the press' is all one has to do... Which takes us back to the 'guessing game' I mentioned in my previous post...

Good morning and have a nice day!

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They did not have to change theirs.

They did. Please read the transcripts of the WMSC hearing where Mclaren's lawyer admits that they changed their floor after the change in regulations.

See? That's what I mean when I say that Ferrari fans believe they are the only blessed of knowing the truth. Three different sources are all dubious tabloids using weasel words! I'd be glad to hear from you the sources you consider credible, my friend. Do you have any inside information that we don't? If so, please share your knowledge with us. Why won't you?

I just gave you an example of how they are dubious - the 'editor' says that the flexible floor and Toyota bypassing turbo regulations are similar crimes. Imagine if a team ran with a 3 litre engine in a grand prix, is that similar to a possibly flexing floor that could gain you a tenth maybe?

If you know what weasel words are, the sentence I quoted from grandprix.com is a perfect example.

As I mentioned, some people have descretionary memory... All you had to do was to go back and read your post, my friend...

Ah, 'whined to the press'!... And I thought that if a protest is not lodged formally it is 'inadmissible'... But it seems that in some cases 'whinnig to the press' is all one has to do... Which takes us back to the 'guessing game' I mentioned in my previous post...

The Spanish FIA representative asked for it. What's your point, you said that the observer was appointed to ensure driver equality, you were wrong.

Or will you tell me how Toyota's offence in WRC was similar to Ferrari's flexi floor?

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It's the way you interpret things, my friend. If I did change the subject in a thread under a certain title, you could easily still accuse me of beeing off-topic. Wouldn't you? And excuse me if I don't participate on threads that I find less interersting...

So your are obsessed with this topic as you find nothing else in this forum interesting. You come here, once or twice daily to post only on this thread. Isn't that what a fanatic is??

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Well, so far in this forum I've been accused as a "mushroom-eater", "pathetic" and now I'm "fanatic". However, more than a few times I've made it clear that I just express my personal views and opinions (as you could easily find out reading my posts - I recently invited tifosi too! to start a thread titled "Even more shameless hypocrites... etc" concerning my favourite team - how "fanatic" does this one make me?)...

On the other hand, most Ferrari fans (at least in this forum) state their opinions as the one and only truth! Sure I won't change my mind beeing accused as a "mushroom-eater", "pathetic" or "fanatic", since I don't consider such statements as arguments, but rather as wisecracks from those who have nothing to say to support their opinions. I am always willing to accept any rational arguments (care to read my reply to wapi?)...

My sig applies to my posts as well as all other posts I read in here...

When??! If I was to make a similar thread, I wouldn't name it like that! It would probably be something like "Even more things I thought of while having breakfast, read it hypocrites..." !

If you say you are not trying to pass your opinion as the truth" you are kidding your self! You don't seem to accept other peoples opinion very well so what's your point of accusing others? You act like a troll by being provocative against Ferrari fans. If you are serious about what you say, better change your attitude or else no-one will take you seriously.

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When??! If I was to make a similar thread, I wouldn't name it like that! It would probably be something like "Even more things I thought of while having breakfast, read it hypocrites..." !

If you say you are not trying to pass your opinion as the truth" you are kidding your self! You don't seem to accept other peoples opinion very well so what's your point of accusing others? You act like a troll by being provocative against Ferrari fans. If you are serious about what you say, better change your attitude or else no-one will take you seriously.

If you care to read yesterday's posts, you'll notice that at 3:36 I invited you (and in a rather friendly way) to be my guest and write about McLaren's hypocricy...

I might remind you that a FIA Technical Delegate measure and recorded both fuel and ambient temperature. So, it's their employee's report that they (FIA) doubt. As of McLaren's refusal to supply their telemetry data, maybe they should be included to the next post "Even more shameless hypocrites devoid of any integrity" (tifosi too! be my guest ;) )...

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Look mates, I'm so tired of all this...

Everything I quote seems to come from dubious tabloid sites...

When I asked for your help to guide me to the truthful sources you hold, I got no answer... Almost all Ferrari fans seem to deliberately avoid certain questions...

When I asked for arguments I got none... All I got is sarcasm and hubris... It seems that's the best you can do...

I'm starting to believe that someone is stealing (and eating) my mushrooms after all...

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If you care to read yesterday's posts, you'll notice that at 3:36 I invited you (and in a rather friendly way) to be my guest and write about McLaren's hypocricy...

I guess it wasn't that clear!

I don't need to make a thread about that! It's obvious if your read the F1 news daily! That goes for all the teams, I don't exclude Ferrari! Its a multi-billion dollar business! I don't think anyone here thinks these companies are run by saints! I don't expect them to neither! As Murray says often, its perhaps a fanscinating aspect of F1! If you are looking for less controversy you could watch the Olympics that are coming up! Nevertheless I believe controversy is always good and actually it even makes posting here a lot more interesting! Lets agree to disagree and be civilised! We 'll probably never agree on anything but that's the idea of this forum!

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I guess it wasn't that clear!

I don't need to make a thread about that! It's obvious if your read the F1 news daily! That goes for all the teams, I don't exclude Ferrari! Its a multi-billion dollar business! I don't think anyone here thinks these companies are run by saints! I don't expect them to neither! As Murray says often, its perhaps a fanscinating aspect of F1! If you are looking for less controversy you could watch the Olympics that are coming up! Nevertheless I believe controversy is always good and actually it even makes posting here a lot more interesting! Lets agree to disagree and be civilised! We 'll probably never agree on anything but that's the idea of this forum!

Agree! Glad we settled at least that...

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