Max Mosley 2 Report post Posted November 23, 2007 McLaren adamant Renault gained advantage By Jonathan Noble Friday, November 23rd 2007, 03:17 GMT McLaren are adamant that rivals Renault did gain a 'clear benefit and unfair advantage' from the use of the intellectual property that is at the centre of the latest spy controversy surrounding the French car manufacturer, autosport.com has learned. In a legal submission lodged with the FIA ahead of Renault's appearance before the World Motor Sport Council next month, McLaren's solicitors leave the FIA in no doubt about how seriously they are taking the matter. And they are sure that the information former McLaren engineer Phil Mackareth is alleged to have taken with him to Renault in September 2006 was used to the French car manufacturer's benefit. In the statement, the solicitors state: "It is clear that McLaren's confidential design information was knowingly, deliberately and widely disseminated and discussed within the Renault F1 design and engineering team, thereby providing them [the Renault F1 design and engineering team] with a clear benefit and unfair advantage." According to sources, McLaren's solicitors have also expressed some frustration at the way Renault have dealt with the matter. It is understood that the solicitors have complained in writing to Renault about the 'cavalier attitude' on the part of senior Renault F1 personnel during the investigation, and also that some submissions from Renault staff are "incomplete" or "misleading", as well as that some members have allegedly provided contradictory witness statements. Renault are due to face the FIA on December 6 to answer charges that they had unauthorized possession of intellectual property belonging to McLaren. The exact nature of this information has also been made clear in the FIA submission. It has been revealed that the matter revolves around 33 files of confidential technical information that was copied onto 11 old-style floppy discs. It is understood these files contained more than 780 individual drawings that outlined the entire technical blueprint of the 2006 and 2007 McLaren car. The figure of 780 drawings is very similar to the number of drawings in the Ferrari dossier that McLaren chief designer Mike Coughlan was found to have in his possession earlier this year. McLaren's lawyers argue that their team's files were discussed by up to 18 Renault personnel, involving at least seven senior staff members including chief designer Tim Densham, deputy technical director James Allison and head of R&D Robin Tuluie. Source: Autosport. ****************************** Very speculative at this stage, but interesting to hear nevertheless. Is this why Alonso is taking his time before re-signing? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AleHop 0 Report post Posted November 23, 2007 Is this why Alonso is taking his time before re-signing? Probably yes but not only that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DOF_power 0 Report post Posted November 23, 2007 > ^ Well what adavntage have they gained ?! Going from no.1 to no.4 is an adavntage ?! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pabloh20 1 Report post Posted November 23, 2007 >^ Well what adavntage have they gained ?! Going from no.1 to no.4 is an adavntage ?! Presumably, they could have been worse than 4th Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Max Mosley 2 Report post Posted November 23, 2007 Well DOF, I hope that defence doesn't wash with the FIA. If you break the rules looking for an advantage, but for whatever reason fail to find any, you're guilty in my book. Besides, they lost Alonso to their rivals. He took 6s/lap away from Renault, and gave it to McLaren. That's a 12s/lap turnaround. So given McLaren were 1s/lap slower last year, and maybe 1s/lap faster this year, I would estimate Renault's cheating actually gave them about 10s/lap. In other words almost as much as an Alonso!!! All they need to do next time is find a way to earn extra money from telefonica from cheating... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PSH 0 Report post Posted November 23, 2007 >^ Well what adavntage have they gained ?! Going from no.1 to no.4 is an adavntage ?! Totally irrelevant. How much if any advantage gained is difficult to prove as with McLaren. The issue is they had McLaren data internally on their computers, and by the sounds of it (allegedly!) it is roughly the same amount of data Stepney had of Ferrari's. Senior designers and other staff in Renault have (supposedly) seen multiple designs of McLaren's. As with the previous case Renault cannot use the excuses of only getting 'glimpses' of the drawings or of them not being of any use - the fact is they HAD them - same as McLaren. Therefore I cannot see how the FIA have to prove any advantage was gained - possession of such documentation is in breach of Sporting Regulation 151c - so no other penalty other than a similar one to that dished out to McLaren should be applied. But I have a suspicious feeling that Bernie might have some influence on the result in this one Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jean Todt 4 Report post Posted November 23, 2007 Probably yes but not only that. That means, Alonso has to drive Alehop's tractor next season? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Quiet One 15 Report post Posted November 23, 2007 Renault should be punished. End of story. McLaren was rightly punished, too. So they can stop acting all hysterical and asking for a Renault lynching. They are not better than Renault so it would be great if they stop wasting money in lawyers to win championships and accuse other teams of the same felonies they commited. As for Renault, I am deeply disappointed. I am still a Renault fan, of course, you never lose that. But I am not proud that my favorite team was caught doing such a gross act of espionage. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pabloh20 1 Report post Posted November 23, 2007 Renault should be punished. End of story.McLaren was rightly punished, too. So they can stop acting all hysterical and asking for a Renault lynching. They are not better than Renault so it would be great if they stop wasting money in lawyers to win championships and accuse other teams of the same felonies they commited. As for Renault, I am deeply disappointed. I am still a Renault fan, of course, you never lose that. But I am not proud that my favorite team was caught doing such a gross act of espionage. You should try! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pumpdoc 2 Report post Posted November 23, 2007 "..................off with their heads!" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ecapdeville 0 Report post Posted November 23, 2007 As for Renault, I am deeply disappointed. I am still a Renault fan, of course, you never lose that. But I am not proud that my favorite team was caught doing such a gross act of espionage. The same feeling man... But at the same time...what can Mclaren win with this? Why they didnt go trough this at the same time last season? why they have to wait until Alonso were a posibility to the team?... I bet that if Alonso were in other team this wouldnt be happening. Sissy Mc$hi7laren. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Quiet One 15 Report post Posted November 23, 2007 "..................off with their heads!" We are not discussing Lorena Bobbit's philosophy here! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pabloh20 1 Report post Posted November 23, 2007 We are not discussing Lorena Bobbit's philosophy here! If you didn't like what he said, then fine, but there's no need to call him a hobbit. I mean he's not that hairy. Well, ok, he is, but that's no the point and you know it! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
F1 FANatic 1 Report post Posted November 23, 2007 So when Renault has data from Meclaren that data has a use and can be applied to a totaly different car. But when Meclaren has data from Ferrari the data is totally different and has no use what so ever. RIGHT Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rainmaster 7 Report post Posted November 23, 2007 I think that between you, you have covered the issue quite well. I say burn them to the ground (Renault that is). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goferrarigo 0 Report post Posted November 23, 2007 I think that between you, you have covered the issue quite well.I say burn them to the ground (Renault that is). Yes we have.... Look Alehop Summed it up.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikathegreat2 2 Report post Posted November 25, 2007 McLaren are going all out at this stage! Maybe it's the fact that Alonso could be going to Renault but then again, 1 of their ex-employers did caryy onnes of info with him to Renault! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Eric 0 Report post Posted November 25, 2007 McLaren are going all out at this stage! Maybe it's the fact that Alonso could be going to Renault but then again, 1 of their ex-employers did caryy onnes of info with him to Renault! Alonso won't go to Renault. They'll get a fine, and won't have the money for Alonso. I would bet money on Alonso having a year off over Alonso driving anywhere. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Grabthaw the Hammerslayer 4 Report post Posted November 25, 2007 Alonso won't go to Renault. They'll get a fine, and won't have the money for Alonso. I would bet money on Alonso having a year off over Alonso driving anywhere. Agree 100%, but would you bet your donkey on it? (you know, THE donkey).... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rainmaster 7 Report post Posted November 25, 2007 Alonso won't go to Renault. They'll get a fine, and won't have the money for Alonso. I would bet money on Alonso having a year off over Alonso driving anywhere. Bets usually involve money, that's why I never bet. Anyway he will drive in 2008, trust me, I know, he told me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Eric 0 Report post Posted November 25, 2007 Agree 100%, but would you bet your donkey on it? (you know, THE donkey).... No, I only bet my donkey in this context: "Give me my donkey back if I'm wrong, but I bet my donkey that Fernando Alonso won't drive in 2008" Bets usually involve money, that's why I never bet. Anyway he will drive in 2008, trust me, I know, he told me. Well, I typically bet emo clowns named George. They get exiled to Siberia if I lose. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Grabthaw the Hammerslayer 4 Report post Posted November 25, 2007 No, I only bet my donkey in this context:"Give me my donkey back if I'm wrong, but I bet my donkey that Fernando Alonso won't drive in 2008" But if you lose your donkey, where are you going to put your 9mm?? No, scrub that - I really don't want to know - too much information!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
