Is It Time Mclaren Mercedes Pulled Out Of F1

[Fed up 0]

It seems to me that MM are on a losing battle against the F1 heirachy, namely Max & Bernie - the latest development in which max made the following comments sound very ominous for their 2008 campaign ;

"We had very much hoped that the investigation of McLaren would be an end of the matter, but it wasn't.

"We have received a report which makes it necessary to have another hearing.

"We wouldn't have another hearing, and go through all this again and bring people from all over the world, unless there was good reason to do so."

To make matters worse,

The hearing will be the motor racing equivalent of a people

[Medilloni 6]

No. They shouldn't, they will get through this and I think some other F1 team principals will be on-side with McLaren.

Whatever people think about them, and whatever mistakes they've made, they're still fighters. It would take more than this for RD to walk away from a multi-million

[Bro. 0]

So what are you suggesting?

As soon as it gets a little tough for Mclaren in a Political sense they should go else where?

At the end of the day McLaren will last alot longer than either Bernie or Max.

McLaren have had extremely hard times like in the Mid 90's for an example but they have always bounced back like all top teams do with proper fiances, proper drivers and proper management.

In 6 months all of this will be forgotten and all we will be focussing on is Lewis Hamilton defending his lead in the drivers title next year from Mark Webber, Kimi Raikkonen, Felipe Massa, Fernando Alonso, Jenson Button Nico Rosberg both BMW's and of course Lewis's new team Mate Heikki Kovalainen.

Silly thread really buts its the off season and I suppose there is nothing else to talk about considering that F1 is all we have in common

[Fed up 0]

It gets worse

6.5. Both Mr. Densham and Mr. Osgood have stated that, beyond briefly reviewing the drawing, they took no further interest in the gearbox assembly drawing. Mr. Densham explained that he viewed it out of “academic” interest only as, by the time he was shown the drawing in June 2007, Renault had already designed its 2007 and 2008 gearboxes, and it was pursuing a different design philosophy. However, McLaren submits that the drawing in question details McLaren’s innovative ‘seamless shift’ gear system and that any Formula One team would have been extremely interested in finding out how such a system might work. The FIA technical department advises that “There is no evidence to suggest that the McLaren information influenced the design of the 2007 to 2008 transmission system.” In particular, the only fundamental change to the 2006 Renault gearbox for 2007 was the introduction of a ‘quickshift’ system, but that as this was built and tested at around the same time that Mackereth joined Renault in September 2006 it is “highly unlikely” that his information had any influence on the new feature

This is not a silly thread, it is about a kind of corporate bullying by the FIA - If Mclaren continue to accept this unfair treatment where will it end? So far they have suffered

1. $100m fine for no proof

2. Loss of constructors points for 2007

3. Not being able to represent the team in 2007 on the podium

4. Relegation to the back of the pit garage

5. Their car will be examined 1 month before the start of next season, a move designed to disrupt their preparations for 2008

For me its all about self respect. This treatment is unprecedented in any form of sport

[kuskor 0]

The Mclaren scandal opened the door for punishing teams on a subject that has been going on for years. People moving teams have always brought with them information from their prior team and thinking it was only stuff they had in their head would be naive. Obviously it's one thing for a person to point component development the right way according to his experience or with the help of his own notes and a person still working in another team leaking the car specification and designs. So far everyone kept their mouths shut and only minor spy cases would see the light of day.

Imo the only useful conclusions from this hearing would be to clarify what qualifies as a breach of the rules and what kind of punishment should be expected for each case. This would help reduce multiple similar cases (with very little evidence) where teams would sue each other in an attempt to mentally destabilize an opponent or damage their reputation. Such behavior would result in substantial unwanted off-track action.

In theory then something good could come out of this but it has been shown time upon time that the FIA are not a court and that precedent means very little to them when making decisions. Instead each case is usually tried as unique and the common denominator usually being what the short-term effect of the decision would be on the current championship. Instead of creating another media circus, the FIA should revise the rules and write down which breach carries which penalty and end the matter once and for all.

[dribbler 6]

No. They shouldn't, they will get through this and I think some other F1 team principals will be on-side with McLaren.

Whatever people think about them, and whatever mistakes they've made, they're still fighters. It would take more than this for RD to walk away from a multi-million

[Fed up 0]

The Mclaren scandal opened the door for punishing teams on a subject that has been going on for years. People moving teams have always brought with them information from their prior team and thinking it was only stuff they had in their head would be naive. Obviously it's one thing for a person to point component development the right way according to his experience or with the help of his own notes and a person still working in another team leaking the car specification and designs. So far everyone kept their mouths shut and only minor spy cases would see the light of day.

Imo the only useful conclusions from this hearing would be to clarify what qualifies as a breach of the rules and what kind of punishment should be expected for each case. This would help reduce multiple similar cases (with very little evidence) where teams would sue each other in an attempt to mentally destabilize an opponent or damage their reputation. Such behavior would result in substantial unwanted off-track action.

In theory then something good could come out of this but it has been shown time upon time that the FIA are not a court and that precedent means very little to them when making decisions. Instead each case is usually tried as unique and the common denominator usually being what the short-term effect of the decision would be on the current championship. Instead of creating another media circus, the FIA should revise the rules and write down which breach carries which penalty and end the matter once and for all.

Good points and I agree that the FIA have set precedents in principle, however these were not applied in the Renault spy case - If precedents are only applied at the discretion of the governing body then surely this is a form of victimisation i.e. one rule for one and another for others.

I am obviously alone in my thinking here, but I think something has to give in this political battle between the FIA and Mclaren.

[kuskor 0]

Mclaren were initially acquitted for being in possession of the documents (that would be an analogy to the renault case), it was only after evidence about use of the information (lets run the ferrari weigh distribution in the simulator) that they were convicted. Renault was also found in breach of the rules but not punished due to lack of evidence, which is more or less what the first decision was about Mclaren even though they had more on their hands than Renault did.

How far the FIA are going with the punishment of Mclaren is probably an attempt to set a precedent and protect from future claims that Mclaren used information on their 2008 car (remember that Mclaren faced exclusion even from 2008 championship). How unlikely do you think it is people would start whining if Mclaren wins the first GP of the next season? So I don't agree with the victimization claim. Multi-million Corporations don't have egos, they just do what they have to do and get on with busyness. Besides they will still have a winning car next season which is all that matters in the end for them and their sponsors.

[Bro. 0]

Good old inconsistincies of the good old FIA.

But I do see your point Fed Up, believe me I do but it shows that your a coward if you just left, and its not easy to just leave, and move on.

they need to battle, fight and keep on battling hard and the results they desire will come on the track soon enough.

Remember Fernando at Monza a couple of years ago when Massa the FIA thought he impeded Massa on his flyer and Fernando thought that his world was crashing down on him.

Well what happened in Brazil this year?

the FIA made sure he was getting equal treatment to Lewis and the Mclaren team.

Yeah so dont worry Fed up, The FIA will look after Ron soon, its just a matter of time...

[wapi 4]

Good points and I agree that the FIA have set precedents in principle, however these were not applied in the Renault spy case - If precedents are only applied at the discretion of the governing body then surely this is a form of victimisation i.e. one rule for one and another for others.

I am obviously alone in my thinking here, but I think something has to give in this political battle between the FIA and Mclaren.

In Stepney case initial ruling of the FIA against McLaren was exactly the same: "no evidence". But then some e-mails and witnesses from within McLaren came forward and provided evidence that there was continuouos flow of information from Ferrari to McLaren and that info was widely discussed and disseminated within McLaren team even setup for test on the simulator.

Also Mosley said that McLaren lied on the hearing on July 26th, Renault did not copy that mistake.

If I were in the seat of Daimler Benz board of directors I would fire Ron Dennis and few other top management guys responsible for catastrophic decissions taken by the team through Stepney case.

[Fed up 0]

In Stepney case initial ruling of the FIA against McLaren was exactly the same: "no evidence". But then some e-mails and witnesses from within McLaren came forward and provided evidence that there was continuouos flow of information from Ferrari to McLaren and that info was widely discussed and disseminated within McLaren team even setup for test on the simulator.

Also Mosley said that McLaren lied on the hearing on July 26th, Renault did not copy that mistake.

You have to think outside of the box - The original ruling was a ruse, designed specifically to set Mclaren up. Note that the same wording hasn't been applied to Renault or the insistence of examining their 2008 car - Who did Alonso allegedly approach with the information regarding the emails? Bernie!

The FIA effectively handed down the punishment knowing that they already had the evidence.

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer 4]

Good points and I agree that the FIA have set precedents in principle, however these were not applied in the Renault spy case - If precedents are only applied at the discretion of the governing body then surely this is a form of victimisation i.e. one rule for one and another for others.

I am obviously alone in my thinking here, but I think something has to give in this political battle between the FIA and Mclaren.

No I don't think you are alone.

I should imagine that the board and sponsors of McLaren are weighing up the same questions themselves.

And as far as the FIA are concerned, they are just playing their same old tricks and imho are demonstrating that they are not necessarily acting in the best interests of the sport or are being objective. But then given the personalities and sums of money involved this is probably not a huge surprise.

[David Adams 0]

A small point to raise, didn't Ferrari appeal the original McLaren ruling, without additional evidence?

A short while later, after the appeal had been set, the Alonso saga began, where new evidence did come to light, which nobody knew of previously...?

[Quiet One 15]

Ah, the joy of revenge! I will be totally unfair, so excuse my post

Let's see: for ages, the main dig at Nando was "stop whining, even if it was unfair what happened to you! real drivers just shut up and drive!"

Now that Macca is in a similar (not the same) situation, suddenly everybody runs away and talks about quitting F1. How come?

By the way, the Renault and McLaren cases are not the same. Read the FIA statements carefully. McKereth's stolen docs were old and outdated, and Renault opened all their archives not only to FIA, but to McLaren as well. They could determine that Renault's development was directed in a totally different way from McLaren's even after they saw the docs. They could compare both developments thanks to the loads of info given from Renault since the beginning.

McLaren, on the other side, followed a more dodgy approach, less cooperation means less knowledge of the real impact of the documents. Their documents were up to date reports from Ferrari, as they were getting info from a guy still working for Ferrari. Not the same situation at all.

That said, I do believe that Renault should have been punished. And that McLaren's punishment was way too harsh.

There is an inconsistency, but both cases are not similar at all.

[goferrarigo 0]

It seems to me that MM are on a losing battle against the F1 heirachy, namely Max & Bernie - the latest development in

Timesonline

Why will the Renault not be subject to the same rigorous scrutiny to see if their 2008 car includes any Mclaren IP - The irony of it all is that Flavio will have a say in the legality of the 2008 Mclaren car.

I am so confused as to where this witchhunt is going and what the intentions of Max are regarding the future of the team, but it is obvious that there is only going to be one winner. Is it prudent for the team to spend 100's of millions of dollars when it is clear that the FIA will do all in their power to undermine them and publicly humiliate the team and its sponsors.

Maybe it is time Mclaren stopped swimming against the tide and regained some of the self respect by pulling out of the sport - Your opinions please.

That newspaper is getting sued by the FIA, so it kinda loses credibilty...

[wapi 4]

You have to think outside of the box - The original ruling was a ruse, designed specifically to set Mclaren up. Note that the same wording hasn't been applied to Renault or the insistence of examining their 2008 car - Who did Alonso allegedly approach with the information regarding the emails? Bernie!

The FIA effectively handed down the punishment knowing that they already had the evidence.

Nobody forced McLaren not to tell truth on the first hearing, they assumed FIA does not have any evidence. That was catastrophic judgement made by McLaren management and their lawyers. On the contrary, Renault cooperated and admitted wrong doing to the full extent unless some other evidence surfaces.

Also, Ferrari was not allowed into McLaren offices at any point to search computer systems for evidence. McLaren was invited and allowed to do so in Renault. In that process all Renault confidential data was deliberately made available to McLaren in Renault management's attempt to clear the case. McLaren always played very defensively, tried to hide and not tell truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

Any honest manager with IQ higher than his shoe size would suspend Mike Couglan as soon as he learned that guy is engaged in illegal communication, would alert Ferrari and FIA of discoveries and would demonstrate no intention to use any of the obtained data. Most probably punishment would not be there, certainly it would be of much less extent than losing WCC and 100 million. Instead they tried to escape punishment by betting that they control all evidence. That was so wrong.

[Bro. 0]

this article which I'm about to post is more about how defensive the FIA have turned on every one, even the media...

Brundle: FIA trying to bully the media

By Biranit GorenSunday, December 9th 2007, 02:49 GMT

Former Grand Prix driver and ITV Formula One commentator Martin Brundle has accused the FIA of trying to deter the media from criticising the governing body over their handling of the spying affair.

The FIA said it intends to sue the Sunday Times for libel after Brundle accused the governing body of witch-hunt against McLaren in a column published in September.

That column appeared four days before the World Motor Sport Council excluded McLaren from the 2007 constructors' championship and imposed a $100 million USD fine on the outfit.

In a new column published today in the Sunday Times, Brundle hits back at the FIA and claims the timing of the legal threat is not coincidental.

"The timing of the writ is significant, in my view, given the FIA's decision to find Renault guilty of having significant McLaren designs and information within their systems, but not administering any penalty," Brundle writes.

"It is a warning sign to other journalists and publications to choose their words carefully over that decision.

"I'm tired of what I perceive as the 'spin' and tactics of the FIA press office, as are many other journalists.

"I expect my accreditation pass for next year will be hindered in some way to make my coverage of F1 more difficult and to punish me. Or they will write to ITV again to say that my commentary is not up to standard despite my unprecedented six Royal Television Society Awards for sports broadcasting. So be it."

Brundle also defends his right to voice his criticism against the FIA, emphasizing his experience and passion for Formula One.

"As a former Formula One driver, I have earned the right to have an opinion about the sport, and probably know as much about it as anybody else," he writes.

"I have attended approaching 400 Grands Prix, 158 as a driver. I have spilt blood, broken bones, shed tears, generated tanker loads of sweat, tasted the champagne glories and plumbed the depths of misery.

"I have never been more passionate about F1 and will always share my opinions in an honest and open way, knowing readers will make up their own minds."

48-year-old Brundle raced in Formula One between the years 1984 and 1996. He has been commentating for ITV for the past decade.

.................................

Does anyone here that they are bullying Brundle because he was an ex McLaren driver????

[goferrarigo 0]

Well they are taking Sunday times to court, for the whichhunt allegations, why not add a few more...

[David Adams 0]

Excellent, I've always enjoyed the things Martin Brundle says and im pleased to see he continues to live on to expectations.

Now all we need is for the FIA to step down from the pedestal, which they surely feel is higher then God at this point, admit fault and we can all move on and be happy hippies...

[***TAMER*** 0]

It gets worse

This is not a silly thread, it is about a kind of corporate bullying by the FIA - If Mclaren continue to accept this unfair treatment where will it end? So far they have suffered

1. $100m fine for no proof

2. Loss of constructors points for 2007

3. Not being able to represent the team in 2007 on the podium

4. Relegation to the back of the pit garage

5. Their car will be examined 1 month before the start of next season, a move designed to disrupt their preparations for 2008

For me its all about self respect. This treatment is unprecedented in any form of sport

You are obviously a Maclaren Fan. What do you mean there was no proof. Where have you been. Renault got the same punishment as Maclaren in June. The only reason they got such a hefty fine was because they lied. Even if they didn't do it intentially. They said one thing and it turned out to be another.

Also the test driver and Alonso tested some of Ferrari's ideas (the gas in the tyres) Also Maclaren were given race strategies. That is a plain benefit from the leaks.

Although i agree that Renault should be fined for even having the documents as Maclaren should have been punished in June, but since they did not punish Maclaren for not using the info in June why should they fine Renault??

I didn't see or hear any Maclaren fans complaining back in June when the team was found guilty but escaped punishment....

[wapi 4]

this article which I'm about to post is more about how defensive the FIA have turned on every one, even the media...

Brundle: FIA trying to bully the media

By Biranit GorenSunday, December 9th 2007, 02:49 GMT

Former Grand Prix driver and ITV Formula One commentator Martin Brundle has accused the FIA of trying to deter the media from criticising the governing body over their handling of the spying affair.

The FIA said it intends to sue the Sunday Times for libel after Brundle accused the governing body of witch-hunt against McLaren in a column published in September.

Taking journalists to court is never clever strategy. Even if you win in court nobody will notice, damage has been done. There are other ways to make journalists life less easy... If I were FIA I would not do it.

[goferrarigo 0]

Taking journalists to court is never clever strategy. Even if you win in court nobody will notice, damage has been done. There are other ways to make journalists life less easy... If I were FIA I would not do it.

I think it may be... It sticks the bounds of journalism, and what you can or cannot say. I think FIA will lose, as tis just an opinion, but if that had been published in the regular news section, which nothing expressed saying it was an opinion, then they are in trouble. And other newspaper will report the win, and so will the web atleast...

[AleHop 0]

Is it Time McLaren-Mercedes are kicked out?

[spitfire 0]

I posted this in the predictions thread and thought given the discusion around journalists and the FIA it might make entertaining reading here too.

My prediction for next year...

Ron Dennis will tell one of the other team principles that he saw that both Ferrari drivers put their left shoe on before they put their right shoe on. The FIA, upon hearing this will rule that the order in which drivers put their shoes on is proprietary information and will fine Mclaren 100 million dollars..... Later in the season Flavio will note that both Ferrari drivers put their left glove on before they put their right glove on. The FIA, upon hearing this will rule that the order in which drivers put their gloves on is proprietary information and will congratulate Flavio on being so observant!

The world will continue to turn, night will continue to follow day, F1 and the FIA will become even more irrelevant! tongue.gif

Hard to believe but true.

Keep Smiling laugh.gif

Should Mclaren quit or be kicked out. I don't think so but maybe we should all erase F1 from our list of worthwhile viewing and boycott all the F1 advertisers until the FIA members all resign!

[David Adams 0]

lol spitfire - and rather good comments!