Mclaren Confess: We Used More Ferrari Info

[Schumikonen 2]

13 December 2007

The McLaren Formula 1 team surprised a few as it published a statement late Thursday afternoon that it became clear to the team that that Ferrari information was more widely disseminated within McLaren than was previously communicated. In McLaren's statement the team furthermore apologises and regrets that these things has happened within its team.

The full statement of the team said:

As a result of the investigations carried out by the F

[Oli 1]

As we all know, they were competitive this season just beacuse they used Ferrari info.

No- in fact that's exactly what we don't know.

[Kati 0]

my point is: renault stole n copied mclaren data before mclaren stole ferraris: they sucked all season

[David Adams 0]

I've just finished reading the 24 page PDF, made an interesting read.

Seems 100% that McLaren took at *least* one bit of info from Stepney, but a number of points in there are total rubbish, they publish the prosecutions reasons for McLaren but for the defense say "we don't accept any of the things the engineer told us for why they did this".

Hardly a transparent document!

I still have to say though, McLaren hardly knew of anything about the Ferrari car, infact the document in question only has 1 area where McLaren had actual Ferrari data to use, something to do with a braking system Ferrari were using, but again the reasons how McLaren got this data are put under the words "we don't accept McLaren's engineers statement on how he got this information".

Ah well, it just proves one thing, if you accussed of cheating, just send a letter to everyone saying "were sorry, come and look around, we'll even bring cake!" - you then get off scott free!

[z2z 0]

now read this http://www.fia.com/public/mclaren.pdf only 21 pages

[Quiet One 15]

Ah well, it just proves one thing, if you accussed of cheating, just send a letter to everyone saying "were sorry, come and look around, we'll even bring cake!" - you then get off scott free!

Wrong.

You were accusing of using confidential info to gain a competitive advantage. Cheating, regretfuly, seems something the FIA is not concerned about or they would have punished McLaren more than once and Renault...and Williams...and Ferrari...and...and...I still think it's a shame, but again, the accusation was for using the info to gain a competitive advantage.

If you are being accused of that, the best option is to show everything you have and let them know that either you didn't use that info at all, or you are so stupid you didn't even get the facts right enough to apply them on my own car (Renault tactics). FIA will investigate you and quickly try to put all this behind so as not to hurt ratings too much.

McLaren tactic was something more like "Oh, I am a virtous virgin! The FIA and Ferrari are trying to rape me! No, you don't have rights to check whether I am a virgin or not! Well, ok...maybe I was not a complete virgin...only 80% virgin...but still!!! Ok, ok...on second thought maybe I am a 30% virgin, my earlobes were never pierced...that should account for something right?"

If I were Ron, and I actually were as idiotic as not to have known any of this until now, I would at least sue my own lawyers.

[pabloh20 1]

Wrong.

You were accusing of using confidential info to gain a competitive advantage. Cheating, regretfuly, seems something the FIA is not concerned about or they would have punished McLaren more than once and Renault...and Williams...and Ferrari...and...and...I still think it's a shame, but again, the accusation was for using the info to gain a competitive advantage.

If you are being accused of that, the best option is to show everything you have and let them know that either you didn't use that info at all, or you are so stupid you didn't even get the facts right enough to apply them on my own car (Renault tactics). FIA will investigate you and quickly try to put all this behind so as not to hurt ratings too much.

McLaren tactic was something more like "Oh, I am a virtous virgin! The FIA and Ferrari are trying to rape me! No, you don't have rights to check whether I am a virgin or not! Well, ok...maybe I was not a complete virgin...only 80% virgin...but still!!! Ok, ok...on second thought maybe I am a 30% virgin, my earlobes were never pierced...that should account for something right?"

If I were Ron, and I actually were as idiotic as not to have known any of this until now, I would at least sue my own lawyers.

We disagree on this, Andres. I still maintain that Renault should have got some punishment, otherwise it is a licence to cheat if you quickly say sorry when caught.

Renault had the intention of using McLaren's legal mass damper, only they couldn't work it out. It still falls under intention to cheat, which is the same as McLaren's simulator tests. Well, except McLaren didn't admit it soon enough!

[Quiet One 15]

We disagree on this, Andres. I still maintain that Renault should have got some punishment, otherwise it is a licence to cheat if you quickly say sorry when caught.

Renault had the intention of using McLaren's legal mass damper, only they couldn't work it out. It still falls under intention to cheat, which is the same as McLaren's simulator tests. Well, except McLaren didn't admit it soon enough!

Then we don't disagree!

I also think Renault should have been punished for trying to cheat.

And we both agree that the main cause of FIA's acrimony against McLaren is because McLaren tried to deny what happened instead of doing what Renault did, right?

So we have two different concepts here:

1) What you (and I) think it's correct or not. Renault should have been punished as McLaren was.

2) FIA's logic behind each case. They decided to penalize McLaren's obstruction of the investigation, more than the actual cheating. Whether you agree with FIA or not, it's also rather clear that McLaren didn't exactly act in the best way possible either regarding F1 or their own interest. Max might be an autoritharian little mobster, but Ron had known him for years. He should have known better and acted accordingly instead of making things worse.

[David Adams 0]

Good point on suing their lawyers, they did indeed raise an awful defense/offense!

[pabloh20 1]

Then we don't disagree!

I also think Renault should have been punished for trying to cheat.

And we both agree that the main cause of FIA's acrimony against McLaren is because McLaren tried to deny what happened instead of doing what Renault did, right?

So we have two different concepts here:

1) What you (and I) think it's correct or not. Renault should have been punished as McLaren was.

2) FIA's logic behind each case. They decided to penalize McLaren's obstruction of the investigation, more than the actual cheating. Whether you agree with FIA or not, it's also rather clear that McLaren didn't exactly act in the best way possible either regarding F1 or their own interest. Max might be an autoritharian little mobster, but Ron had known him for years. He should have known better and acted accordingly instead of making things worse.

You're not doing your agreeing with everyone trick again are you ?

1. I don't know know if you actually meant this or not, but I don't think they should have been punished as harshly as McLaren, but there should have been some punishment.

2. Agreed.

I hate agreeing with you, it makes me feel all dirty inside.

[Quiet One 15]

You're not doing your agreeing with everyone trick again are you ?

1. I don't know know if you actually meant this or not, but I don't think they should have been punished as harshly as McLaren, but there should have been some punishment.

I actually meant that both teams should have been punished. I still maintain that McLaren deserves a harsher punishment than Renault.

2. Agreed.

I don't agree...wait...

I hate agreeing with you, it makes me feel all dirty inside.

I agree.

[pabloh20 1]

I actually meant that both teams should have been punished. I still maintain that McLaren deserves a harsher punishment than Renault.

I don't agree...wait...

I agree.

I agree

I agree

I agree

[Schumikonen 2]

my point is: renault stole n copied mclaren data before mclaren stole ferraris: they sucked all season

I already explained this but I am going to explain it again.

Ferrari was a top team last year, they finished the season being the fastest team on track, Mclaren who fail to win a single race last season copied them and they improved beacuse they took info from the fastest team, but Renault being a top last season tried to improve their speed and they copied a former top team Mclaren and they got what what Mclaren had last season, a slow pace.

[Schumikonen 2]

You're not doing your agreeing with everyone trick again are you ?

1. I don't know know if you actually meant this or not, but I don't think they should have been punished as harshly as McLaren, but there should have been some punishment.

Don't worry about punishment I heard that both teams (Mclaren & Renault) are going to start next season without a single point (0) and this punishment could "possibly" be extended to some other teams, just let's wait and see.

[maure 1]

And the bad news for the hero worshipers continue... yet being so thick in denial and for so long, not even a confession of guilt (not the first, btw) means anything to them and they continue to blame everyone else... was it not Alonso and DLR alone who cheated? Was it not Reanult? Was it not... the seven dwarfs?

The bottom line is that McLaren and RD have lied to everyone non-stop. Most of us caught on it early on. But some are going to be gypped until the end of time, it seems.

It is obviously a joke but, apparently, not for everyone. If RD were to have stood at the end of pitlane with a smoky bazooka while Alonso's car was blown to pieces, the hero worshipers would claim that RD was smoking a big cigar and that Alonso didn't have the mental strenght to keep his car from exploding, thus noone but himself to blame.

[Quiet One 15]

And the bad news for the hero worshipers continue... yet being so thick in denial and for so long, not even a confession of guilt (not the first, btw) means anything to them and they continue to blame everyone else... was it not Alonso and DLR alone who cheated? Was it not Reanult? Was it not... the seven dwarfs?

The bottom line is that McLaren and RD have lied to everyone non-stop. Most of us caught on it early on. But some are going to be gypped until the end of time, it seems.

It is obviously a joke but, apparently, not for everyone. If RD were to have stood at the end of pitlane with a smoky bazooka while Alonso's car was blown to pieces, the hero worshipers would claim that RD was smoking a big cigar and that Alonso didn't have the mental strenght to keep his car from exploding, thus noone but himself to blame.

Are you aware that nobody in this thread has tried to blame someone else?

Just for the sake of not misinterpreting you: are you just having fun when you make those posts or are you really that furious against who knows what?

I might sound less polite than I would want to, but I can't find a better way to ask this and it really has me wondering.

[maure 1]

Are you aware that nobody in this thread has tried to blame someone else?

It is all over the forums. Denial of McLaren/RD's doings is everywhere. Blaming others of their doings too.

Just for the sake of not misinterpreting you: are you just having fun when you make those posts or are you really that furious against who knows what?

I might sound less polite than I would want to, but I can't find a better way to ask this and it really has me wondering.

It is easy to see that some people post out of a sense of duty, to accomplish a mission of some sort... for example, trying to justify their worship of a particular team or driver in the face of contrary evidence. It happens in all sports.

Myself and, as I presume, many others simply post to entertain ourselves... and, yes, poking at the fanaticals so that they behave hysterically is amusing (to me) as it peppers with humor the damage they do to the sport.

[Quiet One 15]

It is all over the forums. Denial of McLaren/RD's doings is everywhere. Blaming others of their doings too.

It is easy to see that some people post out of a sense of duty, to accomplish a mission of some sort... for example, trying to justify their worship of a particular team or driver in the face of contrary evidence. It happens in all sports.

Myself and, as I presume, many others simply post to entertain ourselves... and, yes, poking at the fanaticals so that they behave hysterically is amusing (to me) as it peppers with humor the damage they do to the sport.

Nevermind.

[foxtrot023 0]

So we can kiss godbye to the

[kiko01 0]

Are you aware that nobody in this thread has tried to blame someone else?

Just for the sake of not misinterpreting you: are you just having fun when you make those posts or are you really that furious against who knows what?

I might sound less polite than I would want to, but I can't find a better way to ask this and it really has me wondering.

Hi guys

He's/she's saying a huge truth, half of the members of this forum thought this was something done only by a engineer and two SPANISH racers (i underline the fact they were spanish because it was a crucial factor those days) Now it's clear the team was lying. If you think this is not something important or remarkable you're of course entitled to your opinion but i absolutelly agree with Maure's argument

I actually find your post funny because if i'm not wrong you were among those who found hard to believe noone within the team appart from these three persons knew about this.

[kiko01 0]

So we can kiss godbye to the

[Oli 1]

And the bad news for the hero worshipers continue... yet being so thick in denial and for so long, not even a confession of guilt (not the first, btw) means anything to them and they continue to blame everyone else... was it not Alonso and DLR alone who cheated? Was it not Reanult? Was it not... the seven dwarfs?

The bottom line is that McLaren and RD have lied to everyone non-stop. Most of us caught on it early on. But some are going to be gypped until the end of time, it seems.

It is obviously a joke but, apparently, not for everyone. If RD were to have stood at the end of pitlane with a smoky bazooka while Alonso's car was blown to pieces, the hero worshipers would claim that RD was smoking a big cigar and that Alonso didn't have the mental strenght to keep his car from exploding, thus noone but himself to blame.

I can't see why this statement is saying anything new. We already knew from the details of the second investigation that "some senior McLaren engineers" were involved. It's just an admission of the details of the judgement the FIA made.

How this relates to Alonso's claims of inequality I'm not quite sure- just because RD is guilty (allegedly), it doesn't increase my trust in Nando, especially the fact that he was proven to be involved up to his neck in the case. Claiming Alonso is an innocent scapegoat directly contravenes the known evidence of the case. Nonetheless, I don't think anyone with more than a passing interest has claimed that it was all Alonso's doing; some kind of Spanish conspiracy (except the odd nut job). It's clear there were lots of people at McLaren involved and I think we all agree that's deplorable.

On the Renault side of things, I think they should have been punished, just as I think Alonso and DLR should have been punished. The FIA's policy of "total immunity" when information of wrongdoings is provided seems a little misguided to me. It should be taken as a mitigating factor, but it sets a dangerous precedent. If we accept that the truth ultimately will out (which I believe is probably the case given the movement of personnel between teams), then teams are not going to be encouraged to make serious changes to prevent such occurences in the future, since they know that admitting everything will get them off scot-free. Of course if every team is doing it then it's even worse- the risk of being uncompetitive as a result of not spying is far worse than the risk of getting caught, especially given the size of the prizemoney involved. In addition less competitive teams have been let off worse infractions in the past, so they have even less incentive.

The key in the Spygate saga is that the teams learn something from it. Renault have learnt how to be granted leniency, McLaren have not (well- they might have some clues now). It remains to be seen whether they, or any of the other teams, make any serious changes to prevent such an event happening in the future.

[Oli 1]

I already explained this but I am going to explain it again.

Ferrari was a top team last year, they finished the season being the fastest team on track, Mclaren who fail to win a single race last season copied them and they improved beacuse they took info from the fastest team, but Renault being a top last season tried to improve their speed and they copied a former top team Mclaren and they got what what Mclaren had last season, a slow pace.

Neither team copied enough info to account for their drastic reversal of fortunes. In my opinion it's doubtful either occurence of spying made any difference to the final standings. McLaren had a terrible car last year, so they would have focused on next years development pretty early. Renault freely admit they made little effort on this year's car until the very end of the season.

[DarkLord 0]

Don't worry about punishment I heard that both teams (Mclaren & Renault) are going to start next season without a single point (0) and this punishment could "possibly" be extended to some other teams, just let's wait and see.

i thought every team will start next season without a single point (0)... am i following a wrong searies????

[pabloh20 1]

Don't worry about punishment I heard that both teams (Mclaren & Renault) are going to start next season without a single point (0) and this punishment could "possibly" be extended to some other teams, just let's wait and see.

That's absolutely despicable. I meant some sort of punishment, but not that extreme. I mean Renault need to start on at least 50pts on last year's showing

Nevermind

I can't see why this statement is saying anything new. We already knew from the details of the second investigation that "some senior McLaren engineers" were involved. It's just an admission of the details of the judgement the FIA made.

How this relates to Alonso's claims of inequality I'm not quite sure- just because RD is guilty (allegedly), it doesn't increase my trust in Nando, especially the fact that he was proven to be involved up to his neck in the case. Claiming Alonso is an innocent scapegoat directly contravenes the known evidence of the case. Nonetheless, I don't think anyone with more than a passing interest has claimed that it was all Alonso's doing; some kind of Spanish conspiracy (except the odd nut job). It's clear there were lots of people at McLaren involved and I think we all agree that's deplorable.

On the Renault side of things, I think they should have been punished, just as I think Alonso and DLR should have been punished. The FIA's policy of "total immunity" when information of wrongdoings is provided seems a little misguided to me. It should be taken as a mitigating factor, but it sets a dangerous precedent. If we accept that the truth ultimately will out (which I believe is probably the case given the movement of personnel between teams), then teams are not going to be encouraged to make serious changes to prevent such occurences in the future, since they know that admitting everything will get them off scot-free. Of course if every team is doing it then it's even worse- the risk of being uncompetitive as a result of not spying is far worse than the risk of getting caught, especially given the size of the prizemoney involved. In addition less competitive teams have been let off worse infractions in the past, so they have even less incentive.

The key in the Spygate saga is that the teams learn something from it. Renault have learnt how to be granted leniency, McLaren have not (well- they might have some clues now). It remains to be seen whether they, or any of the other teams, make any serious changes to prevent such an event happening in the future.

Neither team copied enough info to account for their drastic reversal of fortunes. In my opinion it's doubtful either occurence of spying made any difference to the final standings. McLaren had a terrible car last year, so they would have focused on next years development pretty early. Renault freely admit they made little effort on this year's car until the very end of the season.

I am sorry, Oli, but you are just far too logical for this forum. You now have a choice - post fiction, be controversial or be a paranoid schizophrenic, otherwise I shall get the TF1 Maria Mafia to have you 'removed'.