dribbler 6 Report post Posted January 14, 2008 It was only 2006 when this outfit with Jenson at the wheel of the RA106 out scored the entire field in the final quarter of the season & won a GP. Good point. With hindsight Honda probably should have shut off development of their 06 car a little earlier. They may not have scored so heavily but maybe their 07 wouldn't have been such a dog. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rainmaster 7 Report post Posted January 14, 2008 So Honda is all-brawn-no-brains now? The joys of journalism, young Danny. Poor journalists exaggerate to draw attention. Good journalists write truthful articles about things that are interesting unaltered.This is poor journalism. Jenson is basically threatening Honda to step it up. The journalist made the title seem like he was being a DC so that people would read the article. It's a tough life, having every word analyzed. If he says "I think Honda suck," there goes his job and he will be bashed for having no faith in his team and some idiot will say that he was blaming his team and not himself. If he says "Honda can win," he is bashed for being c#cky, and if he's wrong, he suffers. If he answers every question with "No comment," he'll have no fans. When one assumes, they make an *** out of you and me. Funny how we all assume Jenson is wrong. True! I would choose the Kimi method. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jenson_Rules 0 Report post Posted January 14, 2008 In JB's defense, it sounds more of a warning than him saying they WILL win it. Fair play to him because no doubt he is getting p**sed off having to drive his whole F1 career in underperforming machinery! It's a shame since he is capable of winning a WDC given the right car! I just hope Honda can produce one for him but I am not getting my hopes up! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aussief1 4 Report post Posted January 15, 2008 Good point. With hindsight Honda probably should have shut off development of their 06 car a little earlier. They may not have scored so heavily but maybe their 07 wouldn't have been such a dog. They made two massive mistakes in my book: 1) Geoff Willis should never have been placed in the situation where he was left the option of leaving the team which he chose to do. 2) Nakamoto should never have been appointed Technical Director. The clock is still ticking on Nakamoto's time as TD at Honda - Surely Ross is looking for a way to move him sideways and make way for a better / experienced TD. Ross has enough to do at Honda without being the TD as well because Nakamoto cannot be trusted. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
F1 FANatic 1 Report post Posted January 15, 2008 People over estimate the Impact Ross will have. Yes, he is very good at his job but some people think he will make Honda the next the Ferrari, and he wont, not even close to it. I doubt he will have much impact. The thing is that he was just one part of the Formula at Ferrari. He was 1/4 of the team. At Honda he is missing Todt, Stepheny, a support system and a driver who can actually be a WDC. And don't forget Honda is in the end a Japanese company and their business culture of having every tiny decision decided by comity means Honda is totally unable to change in any way that would be beatifically to the teams hopes of ever wining more then a handful of grand prixs. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maure 1 Report post Posted January 15, 2008 People over estimate the Impact Ross will have. Yes, he is very good at his job but some people think he will make Honda the next the Ferrari, and he wont, not even close to it. I doubt he will have much impact. The thing is that he was just one part of the Formula at Ferrari. He was 1/4 of the team. At Honda he is missing Todt, Stepheny, a support system and a driver who can actually be a WDC.And don't forget Honda is in the end a Japanese company and their business culture of having every tiny decision decided by comity means Honda is totally unable to change in any way that would be beatifically to the teams hopes of ever wining more then a handful of grand prixs. True on both counts. RB will contribute but does not guarantee of success and Honda, as a team, has yet to find their way through this mess. On the other hand, the "culture" bit does not hold when one considers their success in other competitions. In MotoGP, japanese manufacturers rule and have for years... not withstanding Ducati's fenomenal kick in the guts this year (and hopefully next). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
F1 FANatic 1 Report post Posted January 15, 2008 True on both counts. RB will contribute but does not guarantee of success and Honda, as a team, has yet to find their way through this mess.On the other hand, the "culture" bit does not hold when one considers their success in other competitions. In MotoGP, japanese manufacturers rule and have for years... not withstanding Ducati's fenomenal kick in the guts this year (and hopefully next). But remember most teams in MotoGP are Japaneses thus all have that similar structure and thus they are on more even footing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goferrarigo 0 Report post Posted January 15, 2008 People over estimate the Impact Ross will have. Yes, he is very good at his job but some people think he will make Honda the next the Ferrari, and he wont, not even close to it. I doubt he will have much impact. The thing is that he was just one part of the Formula at Ferrari. He was 1/4 of the team. At Honda he is missing Todt, Stepheny, a support system and a driver who can actually be a WDC.And don't forget Honda is in the end a Japanese company and their business culture of having every tiny decision decided by comity means Honda is totally unable to change in any way that would be beatifically to the teams hopes of ever wining more then a handful of grand prixs. I agree... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maure 1 Report post Posted January 15, 2008 But remember most teams in MotoGP are Japaneses thus all have that similar structure and thus they are on more even footing. Hmmm...... My point is that the japanese business culture is not to blame... at least not because of an obsession for consensus. I've lived in Japan longer than some posters have been shaving, and I can tell you that the "decision by committee" is misunderstood in the West. When I am in a committee, I speak when told to (like everyone else) and then agree with whatever the boss says (like everyone else). When I head a committe, people speak when and about what I want them too, and then they all agree with whatever I say. It has been like this whereever I've worked and it is understood by all that that is the way to go. If I had to say that japanese teams in F1 fail for a "japanese" reason, I would point to incompetence and encapsulation. In Japan, you don't bitch to strangers about family affairs. So if my boss or anyone under me is an incompetent, I don't tell to anyone outside my department or above. To make matters worse, if you have an incompetent working for you, it is for life. It is nearly impossible to fire anyone. The end result is that if a department doesn't work, those above don't know who is at fault. I have seen entire companies suffering because of incompetent middle managers. If you string a couple of incompetents in a row (ie a boss and his boss), your company is nearly doomed. To make matters worse, advancement is generally based on seniority. If hiring from outside, preference is given to buddies, ie most job postings in newspapers are not real postings... and, even if they were, people would think that company is not doing well because it doesn't know who to give the job to. And so, if Honda's problem is the idiot cousin of some big shot, it will be difficult for anyone at Honda to spot and fix the situation. For those of us outside Honda, it will be nearly impossible to figure out what's going on. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Rumble Strip 0 Report post Posted January 15, 2008 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dribbler 6 Report post Posted January 15, 2008 People over estimate the Impact Ross will have. Yes, he is very good at his job but some people think he will make Honda the next the Ferrari, and he wont, not even close to it. I doubt he will have much impact. The thing is that he was just one part of the Formula at Ferrari. He was 1/4 of the team. At Honda he is missing Todt, Stepheny, a support system and a driver who can actually be a WDC. I mentioned earlier in this thread that Brawn will have to go recruiting to bring success, that's for sure. I don't believe that they are lacking on the driver front though. Rubens aside, JB is consistent and fast enough to get the job done. He sure as hell wants it. And don't forget Honda is in the end a Japanese company and their business culture of having every tiny decision decided by comity means Honda is totally unable to change in any way that would be beatifically to the teams hopes of ever wining more then a handful of grand prixs. Historically true. But do you really believe Brawn would have jumped from the frying pan and into the fire without demanding absolute control? I don't. Presumably Honda, even Honda, would have realised that a headstrong innovator such as Brawn needs to be given a free reign. Otherwise they might just aswell have stayed as they were or packed up and gone home. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goferrarigo 0 Report post Posted January 15, 2008 Ferrari and Benetton weren't all that successful before Ross went there though either.Surely, he will build things around him as he wants. That was the point, Will be allowed full control at Honda, I think not... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aussief1 4 Report post Posted January 15, 2008 That was the point, Will be allowed full control at Honda, I think not... Yeah that's the interesting point with Ross at Honda. Would Ross have gone to Honda and taken up the position if he didn't have full control?? I think he might not have full control but very close to it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goferrarigo 0 Report post Posted January 16, 2008 Yeah that's the interesting point with Ross at Honda. Would Ross have gone to Honda and taken up the position if he didn't have full control?? I think he might not have full control but very close to it. I think Old age could have gotten in that, i would be very surprised if they gave him close to full control. Remember the objective of Honda is to beat Toyota and Williams... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Rumble Strip 0 Report post Posted January 18, 2008 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aussief1 4 Report post Posted January 18, 2008 I think Ross will persuade the Japanese round to his way of thinking in some aspects. If Honda want full value they will come round to Ross's way of thinking. If Honda are not prepared to listen and do what he recommends then the whole exercise is a massive waste of money. I'm still of the belief that Ross wouldn't have gone to Honda without the knowledge of what power he will have. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goferrarigo 0 Report post Posted January 18, 2008 If Honda want full value they will come round to Ross's way of thinking. If Honda are not prepared to listen and do what he recommends then the whole exercise is a massive waste of money. I'm still of the belief that Ross wouldn't have gone to Honda without the knowledge of what power he will have. See he may have been told he would get the power and loads of money for this... But if he tries to fire a few people in high places(which is needed) i qould be surprised if the Japanese would let senior staff go just like that... Especially with what maure said(which i think is probably true) that seniority in Japan is too important and Ross is compartively an outsider to the company and management... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aussief1 4 Report post Posted January 18, 2008 See he may have been told he would get the power and loads of money for this...But if he tries to fire a few people in high places(which is needed) i qould be surprised if the Japanese would let senior staff go just like that... Especially with what maure said(which i think is probably true) that seniority in Japan is too important and Ross is compartively an outsider to the company and management... It would be a balancing act, but the senior staff would be moved sideways more than anything. If Honda want to win then it's time for change, what they have been doing thus far ain't working, they know that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maure 1 Report post Posted January 18, 2008 It would be a balancing act, but the senior staff would be moved sideways more than anything. If Honda want to win then it's time for change, what they have been doing thus far ain't working, they know that. Yep. But they fail together which amounts to something. Being a gaijin (foreigner) and a newcomer, RB would do better if he finds ways to compensate for the incompetents rather than confront them... provided that is the problem. Winning or losing, it is the entire company who's done it. Taking issue with a couple of guys is not the japanese way, no matter how pertinent. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rainmaster 7 Report post Posted January 20, 2008 Like most have already said Brawn's influence will obviously depend upon his power and control at Honda, alhough no matter what just having him around should help in general. I think his main task/Honda's main problem is getting everybody working in an efficient way towards the same thing and communicating to each other, if anyone can do it he can. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jem of the Shire 0 Report post Posted January 23, 2008 When a team is as bad as Honda was last year, it can take years and years for them to come back. You don't win races overnight and teams that don Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
