Lewis Suffers In Spain.

[Medilloni 6]

Bah...Minnie Mouse aint have no rosy cheeks and is not as cute as Kay

Nah, Kay's definately Jessica Rabbit

[Max Mosley 2]

Even though I'm happy to wind the Spaniards and Maure up about their racist fans, I do agree with the "racist" fans in some ways. For example, if someone made fun of Bernie for being ugly no one would bat an eyelid. When I made fun of JPM for being fat no one really objected. Yet race is somehow different - it's OK to make fun of fatties and fuglies but not black people?

And before someone says it, black people can't claim racism is particularly hurtful. There are millions of girls who make themselves very seriously ill because they think they are fat or ugly, but I don't know many black people that depressed about life because of racism. Sure black people suffer racist violence, but fat and ugly girls suffer from more psychological abuse that can be just as bad - ask any girl, even an attractive one. And fat and ugly people are discriminated against at work about as much as black people - look up the stats.

So imho the "cure" for racism has to include black people becoming less hyper-sensitive.

[5P33D3V1L 0]

Even though I'm happy to wind the Spaniards and Maure up about their racist fans, I do agree with the "racist" fans in some ways. For example, if someone made fun of Bernie for being ugly no one would bat an eyelid. When I made fun of JPM for being fat no one really objected. Yet race is somehow different - it's OK to make fun of fatties and fuglies but not black people?

And before someone says it, black people can't claim racism is particularly hurtful. There are millions of girls who make themselves very seriously ill because they think they are fat or ugly, but I don't know many black people that depressed about life because of racism. Sure black people suffer racist violence, but fat and ugly girls suffer from more psychological abuse that can be just as bad - ask any girl, even an attractive one. And fat and ugly people are discriminated against at work about as much as black people - look up the stats.

So imho the "cure" for racism has to include black people becoming less hyper-sensitive.

If your fat, You can lose weight and sort it out.

If your ugly you can do something about that, surgery/new look/even friends help you confidence wise.

If your black, you cant change that. Its who you are.

Its like being disabled, Im not saying being a certain race is a disability. So dont be silly and think that for a second,

but people get discriminated cos of that, yet disabled cant change their state.

Like people get discriminated for their race.

So its a different situation really.

I dont see many stabbings/shooting/violence including people because their fat or ugly.

I know the arguement your trying to make but its hard to compare and see it from that view for me anyways.

[Fed up 0]

Even though I'm happy to wind the Spaniards and Maure up about their racist fans, I do agree with the "racist" fans in some ways. For example, if someone made fun of Bernie for being ugly no one would bat an eyelid. When I made fun of JPM for being fat no one really objected. Yet race is somehow different - it's OK to make fun of fatties and fuglies but not black people?

And before someone says it, black people can't claim racism is particularly hurtful. There are millions of girls who make themselves very seriously ill because they think they are fat or ugly, but I don't know many black people that depressed about life because of racism. Sure black people suffer racist violence, but fat and ugly girls suffer from more psychological abuse that can be just as bad - ask any girl, even an attractive one. And fat and ugly people are discriminated against at work about as much as black people - look up the stats.

So imho the "cure" for racism has to include black people becoming less hyper-sensitive.

Here we go again, Murray

You cant seem to be able to help yourself when it comes to matter of race. Why you think your opinion is different to the vast majority is only symptomatic of your own issues in this regard.

I wont even bother taking you to task, just read the vast amount of press on this issue.

[Argento Reloaded 1]

If your fat, You can lose weight and sort it out.

If your ugly you can do something about that, surgery/new look/even friends help you confidence wise.

If your black, you cant change that. Its who you are.

Noop ! Michael jackson proved you are wrong!

I think the problem with lewis is due to his fight with nando, not the colour of his skin! I would be the same if kimi was nando teammate!

The whole thing remember me one of the finest humour movies I

[The Rumble Strip 0]

[maure 1]

Absolute cowards.

They cover their faces with black Paint or tar of black sika flex to hide their REAL faces and then they write abusive language in Spanish, So Lewis cant understand what they have just written about him, also they pick the day to attack when Pedro De La Rosa wasn't there to translate for Lewis!

But at the End of the day Lewis wasn't the Fastest, I'm saving that for later- But he still beat Alonso in the Final times!

So whose the Real winner.

Exactly Mark Webber!!!!!!!

Mark Webber FASTEST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This will be the tone for the rest of the season.

Maure are you proud of the Spanish fans in this Picture?

Are you the Black one in the photo Maure?

Interesting that you speak of me when there are plenty of bigots aorund here... perhaps too much like yourself.

Go up a few posts to read what I think of the issue before making a fool of yourself again.

[Quiet One 15]

I hope you were not being serious, Muzza, because it would really disappoint me!

The apartheid was directed against black people, not fat people. The Holocaust was directed against the jewish (among others like the gypsies, the russians, etc.) and not against ugly people. The Sabra and Shatila killings were directed against the palestinian, not against people with bad breath.

There is a big difference between racism and derogatory jokes. Making fun of someone because he/she is fat/ugly/bald is tasteless, or rude. In some ocasions it can be really hurtful.

Racism is that and more.

If you can't see the difference, then your vast knowledge and artistical sense would be just an irony.

I prefer to keep my faith in you. I like you as much as a guy can like another with their clothes on

[Max Mosley 2]

I like you a lot too Andres. But I see a lot of hypersensitivity around the world about race that doesn't help anyone. Here's a good example on CNN. Another good example is in the old thread we have called "I changed the title for the mentally handicapped"! On the other hand, it's perfectly acceptable to reinforce stereotypes that cause immense damage, unknown to most people. It's easy for you to say that fat/ugly/handicapped/retarded jokes don't hurt. But what do you say to the thousands of girls who die from eating disorders every year; to the millions of people who can't have a normal life because they are mentally retarded? They should just deal with it but black people can't cope with Apartheid - something that no longer exists, and happened on the other side of the world...

[Quiet One 15]

I like you a lot too Andres. But I see a lot of hypersensitivity around the world about race that doesn't help anyone. Here's a good example on CNN. Another good example is in the old thread we have called "I changed the title for the mentally handicapped"! On the other hand, it's perfectly acceptable to reinforce stereotypes that cause immense damage, unknown to most people. It's easy for you to say that fat/ugly/handicapped/retarded jokes don't hurt. But what do you say to the thousands of girls who die from eating disorders every year; to the millions of people who can't have a normal life because they are mentally retarded? They should just deal with it but black people can't cope with Apartheid - something that stopped 30 years ago, on the other side of the world...

Nope, that's not what I said.

Making fun of someone because he/she is fat/ugly/bald is tasteless, or rude. In some ocasions it can be really hurtful.

This is what I said.

Empathy is the key. I joke about gay people with gay people which I know will laugh at them. I joke about jews with my jewish friends because I know they will laugh at those jokes.

Black people is still looked down at. So are native americans (continental americans in general, not just USA natives).

The phrase you used to express it "on the other side of the world" reinforces my idea that you just don't grasp the full horror of racism.

We usually get into race discussions. I don't have anything new about it. Go read about apartheid, about WWII, about the Palestinians, about Imperial India, about the Spanish conquest of America, about the pogroms in Russia, about the Kurds.

You will tell me you read about all of them. I say read again. And now use empathy. Try to get into the skin of that people. Try to understand what is to belong to a community that was prosecuted, tortured, killed in every conceivable way for centuries. Read your posts and realize how near the surface is the desire to justify the disdain for the different.

Now think about anorexia, and morbid obessity. Yes, those are terrible personal situations. Yes they need help and comprehension. Yes making fun of any of those differences is bad. No, that has nothing to do with racism.

Like armed robbery and murder: both are crimes, but they are different. You don't have to chose one or the other. You can condemn both.

[Max Mosley 2]

Read your posts and realize how near the surface is the desire to justify the disdain for the different.

Well, I don't think I have any disdain for superficially different people. I'm a huge fan of rap music, which is clearly an invention from black people. But one thing that annoys me is that rappers insult everybody else, but then also complain about racism. My disdain is for the hypocrisy I see in society.

Like armed robbery and murder: both are crimes, but they are different. You don't have to chose one or the other. You can condemn both.

That's one approach, but I don't see anyone condemning anything but racism. Female posters (and also celebrities) on this forum have been called ugly/fat plenty of times with impunity. I dislike how some groups in society try to tell everyone else that they suffered more than other people.

[Quiet One 15]

Well, I don't think I have any disdain for superficially different people. I'm a huge fan of rap music, which is clearly an invention from black people. But one thing that annoys me is that rappers insult everybody else, but then also complain about racism. My disdain is for the hypocrisy I see in society.

So don't listen to rap music!

That's one approach, but I don't see anyone condemning anything but racism. Female posters (and also celebrities) on this forum have been called ugly/fat plenty of times with impunity. I dislike how some groups in society try to tell everyone else that they suffered more than other people.

Maybe they do so because the have? How many wars where started to get rid of fat people/ugly/"retarded people"? How many grups of drunken skinheads you see yelling that they will kill all fat people/ugly/"retarded people"?

How many gas chambers, concentration camps, torture centers, inquisition bonfires were made in order to get rid of fat people/ugly/"retarded people"?

I am ugly. Yes I am. I am bald. Yes I am. I don't fear to be grabbed on some dark street by a bunch of neonazi idiots and kicked to death for being bald or ugly. But I have a semitic face. It is perfectly possible for me to be beaten to death just for that. In fact, a guy here was beaten badly by a skinhead group a few years ago in one of the best burroughs in Buenos Aires just because "he looked like a jewish" (he wasn't jewish). And skinheads or neonazi groups are not even rampant here.

It is not about suffering. Of course a fat/ugly/retarded person will suffer. But they suffer as individuals. They don't fear that some crazy guys will go around calling to kill them all. Black/jewish/arabs/kurds/armenians, etc. faced countries that purposedly and in an organized way tried to get rid of them. It's just not the same feeling. I wish I could make you see the difference, but my words are not good enough

[Oli 1]

It is not about suffering. Of course a fat/ugly/retarded person will suffer. But they suffer as individuals. They don't fear that some crazy guys will go around calling to kill them all. Black/jewish/arabs/kurds/armenians, etc. faced countries that purposedly and in an organized way tried to get rid of them. It's just not the same feeling. I wish I could make you see the difference, but my words are not good enough

Exactly. This time you worded my thoughts, so I guess we're even!

Murray- I may be ugly (although not bald, at least for now) but I've never feared for my life as a result of that. I have many friends who have feared for theirs as a result of racism, in the UK and elsewhere. You may never have experienced that, but I'm guessing from your views and the way you express them that you've never asked someone from a different ethnic background about their experiences. You might be surprised if you do. Racism is alive and well, and not a relic from the 80s, sad to say.

I worked for a recruitment company not so long ago, and the head of H.R. of the major multinational we did most of our recruitment for told us over a pint (actually after about 10 pints- the truth will out when drunk) that we shouldn't bother sending over anyone's CV who did not have an English name, as he would reject them instantly. This was not uncommon practise apparently, and many other smaller companies we employed for used to tell us the same thing.

I'm not suggesting that eating disorders are not an important subject, but they are entirely different and distinct from racism. Calling someone names for being too fat is bad, I agree, but let's face it most of those of us in the Western world are too fat. It's only a very tiny minority of people who develop eating disorders, and those who do tend to have many other contributing psychological factors to the condition- clinical depression, bipolar disoders, OCD etc.

Those who suffer from racism (which is far more widespread) do not have the option of treatment for their problem, for the problem is not in them but in somebody else. They do not have the power to change anything, which leads perhaps ultimately to a culture of victimhood, as evidenced by Sharpton and his mob (who it should be noted are reviled by most people of all races that I have met for exactly that reason). However that hypersensitivity should be viewed as an effect rather than a cause.

On a lighter note, take a look at this website- one of my personal favourites, and thought-provoking too.

http://blackpeopleloveus.com/

[Max Mosley 2]

Murray- I am ugly (although not bald, at least for now) but I've never feared for my life as a result of that. I have many friends who have feared for theirs as a result of racism, in the UK and elsewhere. You may never have experienced that, but I'm guessing from your views and the way you express them that you've never asked someone from a different ethnic background about their experiences. You might be surprised if you do.

Have you ever asked a teenage girl suffering from anorexia how she feels about fatty/fugly jokes? You might be surprised to hear that 20% of such people eventually die from the condition. That's thousands of people every year, while we make light of it, so to speak.

[Oli 1]

Have you ever asked a teenage girl suffering from anorexia how she feels about fatty/fugly jokes? You might be surprised to hear that 20% of such people eventually die from the condition. That's thousands of people every year, while we make light of it, so to speak.

Actually that's less than 100 in a year in the UK and the US combined, barely 5% of those who die in racially motivated murders. There are a lot of myths floating about around anorexia, and the "thousands of deaths" claim is one of them.

Nevertheless, I wasn't making light of anorexia. However I have enough experience of working with women (and men) who suffer from AN to know that name-calling is the least of their problems, especially name-calling from adults. Most report that they are well aware that others perceive them as too thin, but that it doesn't matter to them because they perceive themselves as too fat. Often this, like depression, can arise from seemingly unrelated causes- for example a childhood trauma rather than somebody calling them names.

[Quiet One 15]

Have you ever asked a teenage girl suffering from anorexia how she feels about fatty/fugly jokes? You might be surprised to hear that 20% of such people eventually die from the condition. That's thousands of people every year, while we make light of it, so to speak.

How many of them were killed by other people? I am not referring here to call a guy "fatso" and then he kills himself. I mean good old murder artesanally crafted by means of shooting, gassing, bombing, electrocuting or raping then beating to death. Again: that doesn't mean that a guy that calls another "fatso" is considered worth of praise or anything like that.

This is ridiculous!

Really, can't you see the difference between racism and anorexia?

[Max Mosley 2]

Really, can't you see the difference between racism and anorexia?

Sure - of course they are totally different things. And I only use anorexia as an example of how all of our comments could be very hurtful and damaging to other people. If you and Oli want to argue about the relative number of people who die as a result of low self-esteem and depression brought on by bullying, insults or generally hurtful comments about weight or attractiveness, compared to racism, then we can do that. (Anorexia is only a small part of it of course.) But that was never the point imho.

The point is simply that many people do suffer and who is to say how much suffering can be tolerated before the PC-brigade wade in? I hope someone can give me the precise number of deaths that a problem has to cause before I have to stop making fun of it...

Here's another thought experiment. Let's suppose that everyone gangs up on Oli because he has a stupid name. Everyone on the forum makes fun of him and everyone in real life does the same, because they know his name too. They've done it all his life. Let's imagine that he's a sensitive fellow and he gets depressed, ill and dies. Is Oli-ism not a serious problem then? Should it be tolerated on the forum? After all, it's only one person who's affected, albeit seriously. Or another idea. What about jokes about handicapped people? You don't mind me making fun of disabled people? Or elderly people who're going senile.

Actually that's less than 100 in a year in the UK and the US combined, barely 5% of those who die in racially motivated murders. There are a lot of myths floating about around anorexia, and the "thousands of deaths" claim is one of them.

I was referring to the whole world, though I think all these figures are somewhat debatable. But more importantly my example of anorexia is only one part of the death toll from poor body image. The figures for Bulimia are less well known, but if we assume it's similar (including suicides) then already we have 10% of your total death toll for racism. Clearly there are also many other people who commit suicide or who die from the effects of other psychological conditions associated with poor body image, but I don't have any figures for them. Furthermore there are many other ways to suffer - simply counting death rates doesn't give the whole picture.

Nevertheless, I wasn't making light of anorexia. However I have enough experience of working with women (and men) who suffer from AN to know that name-calling is the least of their problems, especially name-calling from adults. Most report that they are well aware that others perceive them as too thin, but that it doesn't matter to them because they perceive themselves as too fat. Often this, like depression, can arise from seemingly unrelated causes- for example a childhood trauma rather than somebody calling them names.

Yes often it can, but social influences can also have a huge effect, and can also be extremely hurtful. I don't think you would make jokes about fatties around someone with an eating disorder....but presumably no such person uses the internet.

How many of them were killed by other people? I am not referring here to call a guy "fatso" and then he kills himself. I mean good old murder artesanally crafted by means of shooting, gassing, bombing, electrocuting or raping then beating to death. Again: that doesn't mean that a guy that calls another "fatso" is considered worth of praise or anything like that.

This is ridiculous!

I don't think it matters whether a person kills themselves due to mental illness, if it's a result of the way society has treated them, or gets murdered.

[Quiet One 15]

Nevermind.

[Oli 1]

So what are you suggesting? That we never call somebody fat in case an anorexic hears? That's taking things to a ridiculous extreme in my opinion. I agree that calling an anorexic fat to their face would be terrible, but if I want to refer to JPM as a pie-muncher, I will. I can guarantee you that it won't make a blind bit of difference to anyone suffering from an eating disorder, even on the offchance they are reading this topic- it just doesn't work like that. In the simplest terms I can manage, you can't cause anorexia by calling someone fat and you can't stop them being anorexic (or affect their suffering or image of themselves) by never calling someone fat, even if they are.

How you can equate that to people yelling "****ing black" and "black ****" etc is beyond me. To be honest I find your views on race and racism to be rather vile, and I don't think I'm the only one.

[Jez 0]

Nevermind.

A great album. A shame he committed suicide.

[maure 1]

Nevermind.

Murray is a bigot, it is as simple as that.

[Fed up 0]

Nope, that's not what I said.

This is what I said.

Empathy is the key. I joke about gay people with gay people which I know will laugh at them. I joke about jews with my jewish friends because I know they will laugh at those jokes.

Black people is still looked down at. So are native americans (continental americans in general, not just USA natives).

The phrase you used to express it "on the other side of the world" reinforces my idea that you just don't grasp the full horror of racism.

We usually get into race discussions. I don't have anything new about it. Go read about apartheid, about WWII, about the Palestinians, about Imperial India, about the Spanish conquest of America, about the pogroms in Russia, about the Kurds.

You will tell me you read about all of them. I say read again. And now use empathy. Try to get into the skin of that people. Try to understand what is to belong to a community that was prosecuted, tortured, killed in every conceivable way for centuries. Read your posts and realize how near the surface is the desire to justify the disdain for the different.

Now think about anorexia, and morbid obessity. Yes, those are terrible personal situations. Yes they need help and comprehension. Yes making fun of any of those differences is bad. No, that has nothing to do with racism.

Like armed robbery and murder: both are crimes, but they are different. You don't have to chose one or the other. You can condemn both.

Murray, read this and read it again! meditate on it and you may just get to grips with the issue at hand here. I don't bare you any malice as it appears to me that your lack of empathy is purely down to ignorance and not expressed bigotry. To write that black people should deal with apartheid is incredible

You have vast knowledge on matters F1, can I suggest you try and suppress your opinions on race and stick to what you know best - all you do by writing the above is offend and there is no need.

Just my take

[Bro. 0]

A great album. A shame he committed suicide.

You Goose

[Bro. 0]

Interesting that you speak of me when there are plenty of bigots aorund here... perhaps too much like yourself.

Go up a few posts to read what I think of the issue before making a fool of yourself again.

Whoooahhh Maure.

Me Fool? Ooohhhhhhh.

You can really walk the walk, but can you talk the talk?

untitled.bmp

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Even though I'm happy to wind the Spaniards and Maure up about their racist fans, I do agree with the "racist" fans in some ways. For example, if someone made fun of Bernie for being ugly no one would bat an eyelid. When I made fun of JPM for being fat no one really objected. Yet race is somehow different - it's OK to make fun of fatties and fuglies but not black people?

And before someone says it, black people can't claim racism is particularly hurtful. There are millions of girls who make themselves very seriously ill because they think they are fat or ugly, but I don't know many black people that depressed about life because of racism. Sure black people suffer racist violence, but fat and ugly girls suffer from more psychological abuse that can be just as bad - ask any girl, even an attractive one. And fat and ugly people are discriminated against at work about as much as black people - look up the stats.

So imho the "cure" for racism has to include black people becoming less hyper-sensitive.

I'm going to try and ignore this post from you Mr Murray Walker....

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