HandyNZL

Ott?

49 posts in this topic

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_new...es_art_id=33879

This is taking things a bit far now isn't it? I dunno, but to me, this is spying in a sport that has had spies in it since 1958, or any year since WW2 for that matter. And is it really spying? The top engineers go from team to team at almost the drop of a hat, and you can't tell me that they empty their brain of any designs as the walk out the door of their previous employers.

This smacks of Italy and Italian "justice". It's like poor Frank Williams and co getting pulled over the coals over Senna's accident years and years and years after his death. It was a sporting death, yet because it was in Italy they, by law, had to find someone guilty.

Haven't we had enough of this spygate thing? Should Bruce McLaren have sued Dan Gurney for secretively watching him test a little strip on the back of the wing that increased downforce exponentially, and then to install it on his F1 car before Bruce? (Bruce had it on his F2 car). Ever since, that little strip has been called the Gurney Strip.

I understand there is a lot of money involved in the sport, but where is the commonsense? Macca were fined a whopping amount, and lost all the TV money, of which highly benefited Ferrari (see other thread). And presumably the 2008 has nothing Ferrari in it otherwise the FIA would not have allowed their entry. (Technically speaking every team has some McLaren in them...that little ECU)

It's time to get on with the racing in my book. Where all scores should be settled.

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It's time to get on with the racing in my book. Where all scores should be settled.

I agree, I'm sick and tired of the spy saga.

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I agree, I'm sick and tired of the spy saga.

Well it has to go on... The case is not over, so atleast for this season it will...

I want to know more about the Williams vs. Prodrive case....

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http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_new...es_art_id=33879

This is taking things a bit far now isn't it? I dunno, but to me, this is spying in a sport that has had spies in it since 1958, or any year since WW2 for that matter. And is it really spying? The top engineers go from team to team at almost the drop of a hat, and you can't tell me that they empty their brain of any designs as the walk out the door of their previous employers.

This smacks of Italy and Italian "justice". It's like poor Frank Williams and co getting pulled over the coals over Senna's accident years and years and years after his death. It was a sporting death, yet because it was in Italy they, by law, had to find someone guilty.

Haven't we had enough of this spygate thing? Should Bruce McLaren have sued Dan Gurney for secretively watching him test a little strip on the back of the wing that increased downforce exponentially, and then to install it on his F1 car before Bruce? (Bruce had it on his F2 car). Ever since, that little strip has been called the Gurney Strip.

I understand there is a lot of money involved in the sport, but where is the commonsense? Macca were fined a whopping amount, and lost all the TV money, of which highly benefited Ferrari (see other thread). And presumably the 2008 has nothing Ferrari in it otherwise the FIA would not have allowed their entry. (Technically speaking every team has some McLaren in them...that little ECU)

It's time to get on with the racing in my book. Where all scores should be settled.

The freaky thing is that we might actually find out _who_ did _what_.

Shame on you, FIA.

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There were NOT spies since 1958 or WWII, there were spies since the very first days of Grand Prix racing, and that's before WWI.

Peugeot got their hands on some Hispano-Suiza IP and staff and thus build their fantastic DOHC 4 valve hemi engines witch dominated GP racing (till Mercedes beat them in 1914) and also the Indy 500.

Then in America they were themselves spied ( quite a fuss when the so called american Premiers were found to be Peugeots (replicas) on inspection), the result of this being the famous Miller/Offenhauser engine witch dominated the Indy 500 until Jim Clark with his Ford powered mid-engined Lotus won in 1965.

Edited by DOF_Renault_BMW

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I spy on all of you.

I spy on Mrs. Dribb ;)

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I spy on Mrs. Dribb ;)

That's me in drag, sorry.

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Agreed, spying or to put it more accurately information being traded as a result of staff moves, has and always will go on.

Nothing wrong with it as such, it's up to the competition to do likewise or do better.

Having a mole on a competitor's team... still a bit too much.

Speaking of which, doesn't RD's wife look exactly like some US actress? ... on TV perhaps? I just saw a picture of the happy couple and, for a moment, I thought RD was looking for a job in Hollywood... which could work , you know,... American Idol and the such could be a perfect career move for the man....

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I'm not talking about moles as such.

I'm thinking more in terms of staff who move from one team to another and take that teams working practices with them.

Passing secrets to a rival is wrong, I'll admit that.

There's definitely a difference. Recruiting someone from another team because they are good in their field means that inevitably they will bring with them desin language. I'm sure that Newey, for example will be applying philosophies that are common to some of his late McLarens. Does that mean that McLaren have grounds to sue Newey for taking ideas to another team? Of course not.

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There's definitely a difference. Recruiting someone from another team because they are good in their field means that inevitably they will bring with them desin language. I'm sure that Newey, for example will be applying philosophies that are common to some of his late McLarens. Does that mean that McLaren have grounds to sue Newey for taking ideas to another team? Of course not.

I am with you on this. Aside from the fact that it is impossible to "unlearn", it would be unfair to require so. The contributions of an engineer are also his own, not just the property of the team.

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There were NOT spies since 1958 or WWII, there were spies since the very first days of Grand Prix racing, and that's before WWI.

Peugeot got their hands on some Hispano-Suiza IP and staff and thus build their fantastic DOHC 4 valve hemi engines witch dominated GP racing (till Mercedes beat them in 1914) and also the Indy 500.

Then in America they were themselves spied ( quite a fuss when the so called american Premiers were found to be Peugeots (replicas) on inspection), the result of this being the famous Miller/Offenhauser engine witch dominated the Indy 500 until Jim Clark with his Ford powered mid-engined Lotus won in 1965.

Yup, very interesting - though not surprising! If you have teams you have to accept cheating/spying. F1 is almost unique as a sport: money men, lawyers, boffins etc matter more than the "athletes". It is set up that way.

So I also don't see how we can complain about Ferrari using the Italian legal system to their advantage here. It is unappealing to the fans, I agree. (The legal action, not F1, I mean.)

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So I also don't see how we can complain about Ferrari using the Italian legal system to their advantage here. It is unappealing to the fans, I agree. (The legal action, not F1, I mean.)

Very good point. In our quest for mess free Formula One we are sometimes less than sympathetic to things that we too would use to our advantage and therefore cannot blame them for doing.

It's easy to take the moral high ground and accuse Ferrari of going over the top.

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Wasn't saying Ferrari was going over the top....but the Italian legal system. Whilst Ferrari may be bringing charges against Stepney, they are probably more than happy with the McLaren penalty the FIA imposed. The sport has dealt with the wrong doings itself, and that is where it should end. Much like in league or rugby where a head high tackle will be reported to the judiciary and the player will be suspended for three games or whatever. And so ends that - the police don't get involved and lay an assault charge.

That sort of reasoning should also be applied here IMHO so we can get back to the racing!!!

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So I also don't see how we can complain about Ferrari using the Italian legal system to their advantage here. It is unappealing to the fans, I agree. (The legal action, not F1, I mean.)

It is not only an issue of strategy. One what grounds are those that break the law to be excused? If there is industrial espionage, the courts apply.

BTW, the issue also applies to the racist comments, for example. Those countries with appropriate laws can and should prosecute. These are situations beyond the domain of FIA.

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It is not only an issue of strategy. One what grounds are those that break the law to be excused? If there is industrial espionage, the courts apply.

BTW, the issue also applies to the racist comments, for example. Those countries with appropriate laws can and should prosecute. These are situations beyond the domain of FIA.

Exactly.

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It is not only an issue of strategy. One what grounds are those that break the law to be excused? If there is industrial espionage, the courts apply.

BTW, the issue also applies to the racist comments, for example. Those countries with appropriate laws can and should prosecute. These are situations beyond the domain of FIA.

Yes, that too, as long as you aren't just making another jibe at McLaren's expense. Perhaps Alonso should be put on trial for encouraging, and participating in, the "industrial espionage"? Perhaps Kimi too, since he admitted cheating (spying on other teams) whilst at McLaren? Perhaps Ferrari should too, since we all know they spy on other teams in various ways.

And proper education, rather than prosecution, is a better way of preventing racism, and all the other problems ignorant Spanish fans bring to F1.

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They sure used the most unflattering pic of Ron Dennis that they could find!

:lol: best comment ever.

I don't care about the topic,actually.I just have too much free time after the exam period :P

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:lol: best comment ever.

I don't care about the topic,actually.I just have too much free time after the exam period :P

for me I think i have too much free time before exams, but really i just end up screwing myself.....

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It is not only an issue of strategy. One what grounds are those that break the law to be excused? If there is industrial espionage, the courts apply.

BTW, the issue also applies to the racist comments, for example. Those countries with appropriate laws can and should prosecute. These are situations beyond the domain of FIA.

Yes, but the legal system in most countries requires a citizen(s) to press charges before any court can bring proceedings...except it seems in Italy where they have certain laws that allow the district attorneys (or whatever they call them there) to bring civil cases before a judge.

I would think Ferrari has rights to charge Stepney, but to charge McLaren outright seems a little legally fuzzy, and especially when you weigh into the mix that McLaren have already copped a huge fine, some of which was distributed directly to Ferrari.

Which is why I drew the comparrison to rugby and a high tackle. The sports governing body admonishes penalties (ala the FIA on McLaren) and then it's all over. No person in the public brings a charge of assault against the player, so no civil legal wheels turn. Had such an action happen OFF of the field, then the person would be facing some form of prosecution, most likely for assault.

The thing with F1, is that the players are on the field 100% of the year. Information about rivals can be easily gained just by poking a head around a pitwall, or doing what Schumi always did - checking over Mika's car in Parc Ferme.

Formula One, for all it's money and glam, is still just a sport, and the sporting code, for which McLaren was fined against, is the law for the sport. There are no civil law statutes in place for Formula One (apart maybe for bylaws regarding running of races in certain countries). If F1 ceased tomorrow, the world will still spin - they are not curing cancer. No industry will go belly up. Bridgestone will still make road tyres. The engine manufacturers will continue to make engines. The nuts and bolts suppliers will still make nuts and bolts.

It is not "industrial" espionage, which has the propensity to wipe complete companies off the map. It's David Beckham finding out what length sprigs the oppostion are using and changing his to the same. Now, there is just as much money in soccer as F1, and Beckham has just spied on the opposition and reduced his likelyhood of falling over to the same chance as the opposition as he has changed to the same sprig. Should he be sued for this?

Take the case of Renault getting off scott free for being found guilty of the exact same sporting code article infraction as McLaren. Has there been a civil law suit been brought against Renault? No. Why? Because both teams are headquartered in the UK, where the laws are such that someone has to press charges against Renault for a case to be heard in civil court. This process of justice does not seem to exist in Italy...so off the justice system merrily goes and charges McLaren. It wasn't that long ago that the arrest warrants for Frank Williams and Patrick Head were removed. Should they have even had arrest warrants on them? I think not. Those that go to a F1 race, by virtue of purchasing the tickets, agree to abide by the FIA terms and conditions, and waive liabilty for accidental death caused by flying wheels (like JV in Aussie and the poor marshall) and recognise the motorsport is dangerous, and death is possible. Now who understands that the most? Us, the mere fan, or someone like Senna strapped into the rocketship? But again, because it's in Italy, the Italian justice system charges Williams and Head for murder - even though no one publicly has brought charges against them - not even Senna's family.

So this is why I say, again, that this further treatment of McLaren seems over the top. It's pointless in my view. The two teams involved (F & M) have accepted the FIA's decision and penalties and have moved on. So why not the legal eagles that are only really doing this to get their moments of fame and to elevate their standing in the legal societies?

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