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DOF_power

So What Exactly Was Different Without The Electronics ?!

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have to say that for me the race was much more interesting...you could see how the driver behind u can challange u much faster if u do a slight mistake exiting the turn....

only thing i really dont know is, why the slicks are not back yet? i didnt follow f1 offseason so any1 could tell me what is the plan for the slicks?

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Well ?!

I expect plenty of boring races as this to come, and I think last year will seem good in comparison.

Hey, Massa could have won WDC last year. It should be enough for all to applaude these new rules. They still have to change aerodinamic regulations bUt it is good so far.

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I can't believe they're making them get rid of winglets et al next year, ffs, F1 will just be karting for big boys. Although, that said, karting is great to watch!

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Anyway, I'm sure massa will keep us entertained, as he thinks of new ways to fall off the track each race!

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Again answers people.

I didn't see differences. And I remember Massa losing it even with the TC-EBS cars.

The pain is that overtaking is even worse as it eliminated the kamikaze out-brake overtakings.

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The ban on traction control will have little effect on overtaking. The aerodynamics is where the problem lies, because it is virtually impossible for anyone to get close enough to the car infront

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and what did you expect? 100 overtakings during a race ? if you want a lot of those you should watch moto gp. even in touring or stock car class it's very difficult to overtake. besides today cars spread out quite quick, then we had few groups of 3 and we had some nice manouvers.

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If im honest it was a pretty boring race - even the start didn't seem to have "it" for me today...

The race was also pretty boring, if it wasn't for Hamilton behind Webber I doubt we would have had anything to watch!

I do think the lack of bumps related to the new surface played a part though, if a track is very smooth its easy to not get too caught out.....unless your Massa, naturally.

Next season better be interesting with all these so called "changes" :-)

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If im honest it was a pretty boring race - even the start didn't seem to have "it" for me today...

The race was also pretty boring, if it wasn't for Hamilton behind Webber I doubt we would have had anything to watch!

I do think the lack of bumps related to the new surface played a part though, if a track is very smooth its easy to not get too caught out.....unless your Massa, naturally.

Next season better be interesting with all these so called "changes" :-)

Poor Kimi! In Schumi's old days this race would have not been labeled as "boring" but as "wonderful, in terms of strategy" :P

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Even in moto gp there's not that much overtaking. If you want overtaking, watch BTCC. They can overtake because the cars who win get weight ballasts, slowing them down, and the cars are basically tins on wheels which don't interlock, so they can afford to overtake as much as they feel, because it won't generally hurt their car to the level where it would impede their race performance/render them out of the race.

The main problem I see with F1 cars not overtaking is the inter-team disparity. If they were all the same, or if there were some way to make them equally competitive, then there would be much more. Another problem is also the length of the race. Compare this to formulas with more overtaking, for example, GP2 or BTCC - the races are much shorter and there are no pit stops - leading to an increased desperation to "get to the front quicker", and no fuel strategies, which disable cars in certain stints from actually going quicker/competing with a lower fueled car.

All of these are changes which I would not, however, want to see in F1!

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I all cars would be equal there would be no overtaking at all.

Watch Indy 2007 to prove my point.

Get this thru your head, no amount of equality would make these cars/drivers overtake each other.

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pr_81_lg2.jpg

See the green coloured air (turbulent) coming out of the car forming 2 parallel tornados.

That's what keeps the car behind behind. Those dirty air tornados can shave 2 seconds of a car's pace, witch is why only a vastly superiour car can overtake.

And BTW, the picture above is pretty optimistic.

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sadly I don't have access to btcc (wtcc only). Moto Gp weekend is far more exciting if it's overtaking and unpredictability of the final outcome you want - especially in the 125cc and 250cc class. I've never ever seen in any sort of car racing when somebody is starting final lap 5th and wins as it happends in moto gp (not in 800cc class though).

yeap. this picture is optimistic. modern f1 car produces drag coefiicient equal or greater than a bus. drag itsef is not that great of course cause f1 car is much smaller, but it's enough to keep the one behind behind.

I consider engine freeze as one of the biggest mistakes of last season. That led to the cars become even more aerodynamically complexed and therefore more fragile to turbulence.

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Well getting rid of TC and engine breaking hasn't done it, and neither will the "next hope" aero.

I disagree - I think equality WOULD increase overtaking. If you're referring to indianapolis 2007 F1 (and not the indy 500), then you are basing your ENTIRE argument on one race, in one season, in a formula where disparity is the problem. I am basing my argument on ENTIRE series, over many years, over many races. I think your argument is very poor indeed.

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raw - exactly - the high levels don't have much overtaking. The lower classes, like the 125s and the 250s are awesome, I agree!

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What confuses me about air tubulance is the following:

a ) there is dirty air.

b ) When you're in the dirty air, you're not close enough to overtake anyway

c ) As Nick Heidfeld demonstrated excellently today, when you're close enough to overtake, you get a slipstream, thus, the dirty air doesn't affect you

d ) therefore, removing aero has no net effect on overtaking.

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>

^ Unless those dirty air tornados go away, there won't be more overtaking.

And I do agree that the "next hope" aero (rules 2009) might not improve things, maybe it will make them worse, because there's a great risk of cars with too much structural stiffness vs. the 50% less downforce who's drivers will be too busy not to crash the monstrozities then overtake each other.

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Anyway, you're ALWAYS going to have the dirty air problem, the only situation where it wouldn't exist is if the car were going very slowly, or the car didn't exist at all.

The dirty air/aero "problem", very much like the global warming "problem", is a fallacy.

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The stricter aerodynamic rules in terms of no winglets along with potentially slick tyres being re introduced although technically they don't strictly need to be re introduced (but I want them to) will 100% improve the racing. As Martin Brundle said the cars atm just look like incorrectly assembled matchstick models. Back in the years like 1998, 1999 and 2000 the no winglets rules saw brilliant racing.

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And I do agree that the "next hope" aero (rules 2009) might not improve things, maybe it will make them worse, because there's a great risk of cars with too much structural stiffness vs. the 50% less downforce who's drivers will be too busy not to crash the monstrozities then overtake each other.

Very good point... maybe it would be a good time to reintroduce slicks to they at least get some more grip to compensate for the lack of downforce in the corners... but don't be silly, they'll never bring slicks back :(

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What confuses me about air tubulance is the following:

a ) there is dirty air.

b ) When you're in the dirty air, you're not close enough to overtake anyway

c ) As Nick Heidfeld demonstrated excellently today, when you're close enough to overtake, you get a slipstream, thus, the dirty air doesn't affect you

d ) therefore, removing aero has no net effect on overtaking.

It's not so simple.

If you pick up the slipstream there's less drag to overcome witch is nice on the straights, but it also means the car is losing:

- aero-steering, aero-brake-stability, aero-vertical stability, aero-yaw-control, aero-weight-distribution-control

- and the RAM air mild supercharge effect

For every electronic (electro hydraulic/mechanic) system FIA banned, the aero guys came up with some aerogremlins to replace them with, witch is the problem.

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I thought they were re introducing slicks next year. Is it just me or did anyone else hear/read similar things?

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Very good point... maybe it would be a good time to reintroduce slicks to they at least get some more grip to compensate for the lack of downforce in the corners... but don't be silly, they'll never bring slicks back :(

The 2009 rules include the reintroduction of slicks, the addition of the KERS (return of push to pass) and changes to the aero that actually kind of reverses many of the things done by Mosley.

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