Honda F1 Engine Down On Power?

[en3sge 0]

After watching the race at Bahrain today I feel fully vindicated in suggesting Honda's engine may well be down on power compared to its rivals.

I know it can be difficult to know who has the best powerhouse, but the latest on-board shots from jenson's and Ruben's cars show that they really are struggling with mid range and end range power (and possibly lacking toruqe although this is very hard to tell as acceleration is mostly gained by good traction and mechanical grip).

Today the on-baord shots showed Jenson behind DC and Rubens behind Alonso. Both Hondas noticeably fell away from the car infront when they planted the gas pedal. Although you could say this could be lack of aero efficiency, aero tends to only really show itself at top speeds whereas I observed this on all the smaller straights. It was actually noticeable that DC and Alonso were pulling away.

This has happened before too, since the beginning of 2006 (the basis for this year's engine was the 2006 engine) where Honda have ALWAYS struggled with low top speed and the same with Super Aguri. In fact, if you remember back to canada last year where Takuma Sato had a go at Alonso, the on board footage shows him really struggling to keep up with Alonso down the straight, even with a great tow (he was right on his gear box) and an unbelievable exit out of the hairpin. If the straight has been any shorter he may not have made it.

Im worried, as this makes Honda's quest for the world title even harder as their chassis will have to make up for the deficit in power.

[dribbler 6]

I don't think you can reach any conclusions about engine power because you don't know what downforce levels they are running.

Also, Honda made sure that they weren't going to bounce off the rev limiter with a tale wind by making their gears taller. That could account for an apparent lack of grunt.

I would love to see a dyno comparison between all the teams. Most know what each other has got through sound analysis.

[Elizabeth Sterling 0]

It's mostly drag I believe. The key issue with this year's Honda in testing as suggested by Rubes has been that it has a fairly lousy lift to drag ratio.

[aussief1 4]

I don't think that the difference between each of the power plants is all that great in all honesty. Like Steve said, Honda would have probably been running more wing than the cars around them therefore giving the impression that the engine is down on power. The speed trap figures would be interesting reading. I'll see if I get time to dig them up.

One thing I will say however is the Honda engine is by far the loudest engine on the grid.

[Elizabeth Sterling 0]

Plus the current belief is that there's (at best) 20bhp between the best and worst engines out there.

[KazamaS15 0]

I think Honda's engine is fine. Their problem is the aerodynamics. Like Barrichello said last year, it probably still feels like a parachute on the straights.

[Eric 0]

Are you trying to say the power of dreams doesn't compare to the power of horses? You're crazy.

[Bro. 0]

<EKL...

[Rainmaster 7]

Hmmm maybe, but I'm not sure...canna tell.

[en3sge 0]

It could well be down to drag. I know drag kills top speed way more than a lousy engine. However, isnt it at least mildly suspicious that Honda since the beginning of 2006 have rarely (if ever) featured at the top of the speed traps. Thats three different chassis but one common denominator - the engine. The way DC and Alonso were escaping down even the smaller straights at Bahrain is cause for concern. If I was a betting man I would still say they had the weakest engine. Ferrari and Renault probably are the best and I think the BMW is pretty handy. I think the Mclaren chassis probably flatters the mercedes a bit. I remember in 2004-2005 they allegedly had the weakest engine of all. I know that was the v10 era, but still...

[Elizabeth Sterling 0]

Renault? A good engine? Nah, not a bit of it. I'm fairly sure it's down on power compared to the Ferrari and Mercedes. I mean after all if we're gonna be talking speed traps the Ferraris dominated the speed traps throughout most of this weekend. Plus remember that we've had three years of really s##te Honda cars too.

[kuskor 0]

I thought rpm limit had leved the field quite a bit.

Anyone have some deeper understanding about the engine freeze rules, do these apply to all engine components?

[Halfie 0]

I thought rpm limit had leved the field quite a bit.

Anyone have some deeper understanding about the engine freeze rules, do these apply to all engine components?

I thought it applied to all bits apart from a few minor ones that have no performance benefits (to cut down on all these RandD costs). The thing is, The Honda may well have put more wing on as it was more imbalanced in the corners meaning they trade some top speed for better handling in the corners. Of course you're not going to nail a car down into turn 1 like that, but perhaps wanting better tracting in low speed corners is that they prefer.

I dont think the Engine will be that much of a difference now to be honest.

Especially as they all seem to be level enough - The Chassis, well thats a different story.

[Jean Todt 4]

Are you trying to say the power of dreams doesn't compare to the power of horses? You're crazy.

[Jean Todt 4]

I don't think that the difference between each of the power plants is all that great in all honesty. Like Steve said, Honda would have probably been running more wing than the cars around them therefore giving the impression that the engine is down on power. The speed trap figures would be interesting reading. I'll see if I get time to dig them up.

One thing I will say however is the Honda engine is by far the loudest engine on the grid.

EMPTY VESSELS MAKE MORE NOISE!

Did anyone say Renault engine? My water pump in rice field is not working. Just thinking of getting one.

[aussief1 4]

Vmax:Honda 13km/h slower than Ferrari!

In terms of overall speed, Honda was the slowest in Sunday

[dribbler 6]

I still think that as well as it being an aero issue, they were too conservative in their quest to not hit the limiter and may have been geared too tall.

[Elizabeth Sterling 0]

Not to mention more subtle factors like rear tyre pressure

[HandyNZL 1]

Rubens will always be the slowest driver out of any corner compared to anyone on the grid at present, no matter how powerful or slipstream efficient his car is. He RIGHT FOOT BRAKES still, which means his foot IS NOT ON THE ACCELERATOR through the corner.

[aussief1 4]

Rubens will always be the slowest driver out of any corner compared to anyone on the grid at present, no matter how powerful or slipstream efficient his car is. He RIGHT FOOT BRAKES still, which means his foot IS NOT ON THE ACCELERATOR through the corner.

I thought Rubens made the leap to the world of left foot braking a couple of seasons ago

[stopkidding 0]

Rubens will always be the slowest driver out of any corner compared to anyone on the grid at present, no matter how powerful or slipstream efficient his car is. He RIGHT FOOT BRAKES still, which means his foot IS NOT ON THE ACCELERATOR through the corner.

its called heal and toe my friend...watch and learn

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmNe14uCrUM

[dribbler 6]

I thought Rubens made the leap to the world of left foot braking a couple of seasons ago

I think you're right.

its called heal and toe my friend...watch and learn

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmNe14uCrUM

'Heal and toe' is a technique which allows you to right foot brake whilst blipping the throttle pedal with the same foot. The 'blip' is to bring the engine revs up to meet the increased revs of a lower gear, thus making the down change seamless and smooth. On the road it merely sounds good and makes you a geeky pro. On the track the benefits are more significant because it stabilizes the car under braking.

I didn't see Ayrton heal and toeing on this clip. It's impossible to heal and toe in a modern F1 car.

[HandyNZL 1]

Yeah, he tried left foot braking in his last season of Ferrari, part of first season Honda, but has since gone back to the tried and true for him.

Once in a while you get his telemetry up on the screen matched with someone else with the brake / accel...and he's always longer between red bar going down and green bar going up.

And I know what heel toe is too....a nifty skill for reversing B-Train trucks and trailers too I might add

[HandyNZL 1]

Here's the late great Colin McRae left footing it...

Trying to find one I once saw on TV of in-car footage of him...he was literally playing the piano with his feet over the pedals...amazing to watch.

Murph (kiwi V8 driver) left footing it at Oran Park

Skaifey doing heel toe

and

And back to an F1 foot-well...some funny Spanish guy driving some funny orange car trying to catch some funny Finn in some funny qualifying system whereby the drivers have an hour to get a fast lap..... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MGBS4-XvT4

[hookedon-f1 0]

Here's the late great Colin McRae left footing it...

Think there was one once on that show speed with jeremy clarkson.....

And back to an F1 foot-well...some funny Spanish guy driving some funny orange car trying to catch some funny Finn in some funny qualifying system whereby the drivers have an hour to get a fast lap..... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MGBS4-XvT4

Now this would be great to watch during the race / pract or quali if the teams would allow it