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goferrarigo

Mosley Vows To Quit In 2009

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I think this 'witch hunt' has got ridiculous and some of the comments I have read elsewhere have put forward crazy notions. People are so sure there is a Nazi theme that they seem to take leave of their senses. An example:

It was mentioned about the clinical language being used. An example of this was 'facility'.

NOTW said this was 'associated with the Nazis' and (the word) had been used by one of the 'guards'.

It was then remarked that facility was therefore a 'Nazi term'.

I mean seriously, this is worse than clutching at straws.

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Well I certainly agree that prostitution causes an awful lot of suffering and using a prostitute is morally dubious. I've always agreed that he was probably wrong to do that, and certainly wrong to cheat on his wife, if he even did, which we don't know at all. It should be said, as an aside, that prostitution is completely legal in Britain, and the hurt he's probably caused his family is a private matter and probably not something they would want discussed as it has been on here for example. I tend to think it's unlikely that Max was personally using sex slaves, or anyone involved in organised crime, but in any case it's not really for us to say, and don't forget F1 itself has also had its fair share of links to harmful industries like the tobacco sponsorship. Also a fascinating question is whether condemning prostitution like this helps or hurts women: personally I lean towards the second view. But my real objection is that people have reacted in a judgmental, vindictive and hypocritical way.

Public figures have labeled him "sick and depraved", "appalling", "insulting to millions", "a neo-Nazi sado-masochistic pervert". People have taken (perverse?) delight in exposing and ridiculing his flaws. Sure he did some wrong things, but little worse than the average person has done imho. We all turn a blind eye to far more suffering in Africa than prostitution ever caused, so I wouldn't like to throw the first stone at Moseley.

Wrong. Bernie and Max have both tried to make F1 more like CCWS, only to be thwarted by the manufacturers and teams, ie precisely the people who want Moseley to go, funnily enough! I've been trying to explain this for months but so far you could count the number of people who understand on the butt cheeks of a cheap half-arsed hooker.

Good man, Ankit. You're spot on there. I don't like the way he's been treated and I object to the self-interested and vindictive witch hunt.

Ahhh bollocks. You only want him to stay because he likes the idea of a single spec series :lol:

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I guess that's where our opinions differ. I don't think he has done what he thought was best for motorsport, I think he has done what is best for his own personal agenda, whatever that may be. In my own mind, I am convinced that anybody with a reasonable amount of intellgience and a lot more passion for motorsport could have done a better job.

We have differing opinions of 'a man who is down' too :lol:

I would very surprised if this is anything more than a ruse to sway the vote in his favour, on the grounds that he is going to stand down next year anyway. I guess he has some 'unfinished business' that he can't complete before June :whistling:

I really can't think why else he would say that there is a lesson to be learnt from Blair, in that as soon as you announce you are stepping down you lose power and then goes ahead and announces that he is stepping down. That makes no sense whatsoever. Maybe it was a senior moment! :lol:

Yep..

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Well I certainly agree that prostitution causes an awful lot of suffering and using a prostitute is morally dubious. I've always agreed that he was probably wrong to do that, and certainly wrong to cheat on his wife, if he even did, which we don't know at all. It should be said, as an aside, that prostitution is completely legal in Britain, and the hurt he's probably caused his family is a private matter and probably not something they would want discussed as it has been on here for example. I tend to think it's unlikely that Max was personally using sex slaves, or anyone involved in organised crime, but in any case it's not really for us to say, and don't forget F1 itself has also had its fair share of links to harmful industries like the tobacco sponsorship. Also a fascinating question is whether condemning prostitution like this helps or hurts women: personally I lean towards the second view. But my real objection is that people have reacted in a judgmental, vindictive and hypocritical way.

That's because they saw the story, not the video. The story paints him thus, so people naturally believe it. It fits with his background, the snapshots in the story tend to support it, and it's a much more interesting story that way. The NOTW know this, which is why they know it'll sell papers, especially after the McLaren drama last year- everyone wants to see Max go down. Do I think he has been treated fairly? No. Do I care? Not particularly, because I don't think it's relevant to the point I'm making. What's done is done, and in the here and now he has to consider what should be done for the good of the FIA and of motorsport as a whole.

Public figures have labeled him "sick and depraved", "appalling", "insulting to millions", "a neo-Nazi sado-masochistic pervert". People have taken (perverse?) delight in exposing and ridiculing his flaws. Sure he did some wrong things, but little worse than the average person has done imho. We all turn a blind eye to far more suffering in Africa than prostitution ever caused, so I wouldn't like to throw the first stone at Moseley.

Speak for yourself........

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Wrong. Bernie and Max have both tried to make F1 more like CCWS

And that's a good thing how?

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Ahhh bollocks. You only want him to stay because he likes the idea of a single spec series :lol:

:lol: No, but I do think he did a better job than people give him credit for!

That's because they saw the story, not the video. The story paints him thus, so people naturally believe it.

Why is it natural for people to believe the NOTW? I rarely do, and I haven't seen the video. You don't seem to. Perhaps those who do are idiots who deserve to be told so.

The NOTW know this, which is why they know it'll sell papers, especially after the McLaren drama last year- everyone wants to see Max go down. Do I think he has been treated fairly? No. Do I care? Not particularly, because I don't think it's relevant to the point I'm making.

You don't care if people are treated fairly? Interesting morality. :lol:

Speak for yourself........

Sure, I will and am. But I will also stick my neck out and suggest that your choices have probably resulted in the unnecessary deaths of (at least) hundreds of people.

And that's a good thing how?

You and HandyNZ were talking in this thread about CCWS being more exciting than F1, which suggests it would be a step in the right direction. We can discuss spec series again but I can't imagine anyone will be able to understand it. Max is simply an easy scapegoat for the ignorant imho.

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I guess that's where our opinions differ. I don't think he has done what he thought was best for motorsport, I think he has done what is best for his own personal agenda, whatever that may be. In my own mind, I am convinced that anybody with a reasonable amount of intellgience and a lot more passion for motorsport could have done a better job.

We have differing opinions of 'a man who is down' too :lol:

I would very surprised if this is anything more than a ruse to sway the vote in his favour, on the grounds that he is going to stand down next year anyway. I guess he has some 'unfinished business' that he can't complete before June :whistling:

I really can't think why else he would say that there is a lesson to be learnt from Blair, in that as soon as you announce you are stepping down you lose power and then goes ahead and announces that he is stepping down. That makes no sense whatsoever. Maybe it was a senior moment! :lol:

Well that was quite funny... :lol:

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You and HandyNZ were talking in this thread about CCWS being more exciting than F1, which suggests it would be a step in the right direction. We can discuss spec series again but I can't imagine anyone will be able to understand it. Max is simply an easy scapegoat for the ignorant imho.

CCWS had some better races, but it wasn't great. Also, CCWS is dead now, so it's not the right direction. If every series is just a carbon copy of the other with like a few minor changes, there's no point to running them all. F1 has a few unique traits it should keep. The on-track product will improve if and only if more innovation is allowed, with restrictions on aero winglets and s##t. I can't get into specifics, but the only way for overtaking to occur is to have one car be faster than another. The only way to have one car be faster than another is to have them be different. End of story. ALMS has awesome on-track action, spec series Champ Car and NASCAR aren't exactly thrilling. However, innovation can only be done and should only be done on a budget. I propose a tighter budget limit, and some money sharing (the top four highest spending teams have to pay 25% of their budget, and that money goes to the four lowest-spending teams). Innovation on a budget. That's a concept that I feel will please more people because it isn't that radical. Spec cars will leave many p**sed, and open innovation will leave many p**sed.

Max isn't a scapegoat for the ignorant. He has made F1 boring. He's eliminated many of the technical aspects and he's made the on-track product worse. That's not exactly pleasing anyone.

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Well you know I disagree. GP2 affords more overtaking and the cars are identical there (though the teams still exist, which is a pity imho). Karting, NASCAR, CCWS, and IRL to name a few generally offer a better spectacle than F1 in terms of close racing and possible overtaking, and again the cars tend to be more spec-ed. The bigger the variations in cars the less chance there will be for overtaking because the cars will be spread out more (the fastest will already be in front). Also I don't think we want to see overtaking just from having a faster car. It would be a much better spectacle if the drivers were more important than the cars.

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Why is it natural for people to believe the NOTW? I rarely do, and I haven't seen the video. You don't seem to. Perhaps those who do are idiots who deserve to be told so.

Perhaps you should watch the video, then have an opinion.

You don't care if people are treated fairly? Interesting morality. :lol:

Not particularly. Read the words- it is possible to care about some things more than others.

Sure, I will and am. But I will also stick my neck out and suggest that your choices have probably resulted in the unnecessary deaths of (at least) hundreds of people.

My decisions may have been a contributory factor, but not the only one. In any case, since I don't know which decisions those are (and have no way of finding out) it's pretty difficult to modify my behaviour to avoid them. That's different from "turning a blind eye".

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Perhaps you should watch the video, then have an opinion.

:lol: Except that it's hardly necessary. Firstly, anyone who automatically trusts the NOTW because they think it is the "natural" thing to do is an idiot. Secondly, I've read posts from plenty of people who say that the "evidence" is extremely poor. Thirdly, I couldn't give a rosy spanked a## whether it was a Nazi fantasy session or not. Many people have taboo fetishes and fantasies. It doesn't give others the right to be vindictive and judgmental.

Not particularly. Read the words- it is possible to care about some things more than others.

Your phrase and your posts in general suggest that it's not a significant concern for you, rather than just marginally less important. And in any case, I think it could be argued that the fair treatment of an individual is more important than who runs the FIA because once Max has been hung out to dry, the press and the idiots will simply turn to another individual, and another...

My decisions may have been a contributory factor, but not the only one. In any case, since I don't know which decisions those are (and have no way of finding out) it's pretty difficult to modify my behaviour to avoid them. That's different from "turning a blind eye".

No. You could be out helping people now, at a charity or Church but you'd rather chat to me. You could have donated more money to poor people around the world who die needlessly because we're too greedy to give them medicine or food. You know these problems exist and how to combat them, so it seems like "turning a blind eye" to me.

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:lol: No, but I do think he did a better job than people give him credit for!

Fair enough. As you may have guessed, I don't :lol:

The only thing I have heard people say he has done for F1 is improve the safety. Who knows, a more competent person might have avoided the deaths in 1994, though admittedly, he wasn't in the job very long by then. However, the deaths in 94 forced his hand and I really can't think of any person with more than 1 brain cell who wouldn't have gone down the same path. As I say, I believe a lot of other people would have done it more competently.

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:lol: Except that it's hardly necessary. Firstly, anyone who automatically trusts the NOTW because they think it is the "natural" thing to do is an idiot. Secondly, I've read posts from plenty of people who say that the "evidence" is extremely poor. Thirdly, I couldn't give a rosy spanked a## whether it was a Nazi fantasy session or not. Many people have taboo fetishes and fantasies. It doesn't give others the right to be vindictive and judgmental.

Your phrase and your posts in general suggest that it's not a significant concern for you, rather than just marginally less important. And in any case, I think it could be argued that the fair treatment of an individual is more important than who runs the FIA because once Max has been hung out to dry, the press and the idiots will simply turn to another individual, and another...

No. You could be out helping people now, at a charity or Church but you'd rather chat to me. You could have donated more money to poor people around the world who die needlessly because we're too greedy to give them medicine or food. You know these problems exist and how to combat them, so it seems like "turning a blind eye" to me.

Look I know your Max's secret spanky love child, but I hate to be the one to break the news that he has double crossed you and he will not introduce a single spec series.

I am keeping you off the streets. That is an immeasurably good deed and a great personal sacrifice.

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I am keeping you off the streets. That is an immeasurably good deed and a great personal sacrifice.

Aren't you up late tonight? When's your son gonna put you to bed? :P

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Aren't you up late tonight? When's your son gonna put you to bed? :P

After your Mum has put you to yours, with a glass of warm milk :lol:

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Your phrase and your posts in general suggest that it's not a significant concern for you, rather than just marginally less important. And in any case, I think it could be argued that the fair treatment of an individual is more important than who runs the FIA because once Max has been hung out to dry, the press and the idiots will simply turn to another individual, and another...

Blah, blah, Mosley blah :D

I don't feel sympathy for him at all he did a stupid and morally questionable thing knowingly. For a man in his position he should know better. Was he trapped? Maybe? But then if he wasn't in the room going "spanky spanky" there'd be nothing to write about and the meeting in June would not be happening.

The level of response to this from the F1 community signifies also his standing amongst peers and their level of support. If they all thought he was a good guy I think we would have seen much more support and understanding.

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Well you know I disagree. GP2 affords more overtaking and the cars are identical there (though the teams still exist, which is a pity imho). Karting, NASCAR, CCWS, and IRL to name a few generally offer a better spectacle than F1 in terms of close racing and possible overtaking, and again the cars tend to be more spec-ed. The bigger the variations in cars the less chance there will be for overtaking because the cars will be spread out more (the fastest will already be in front). Also I don't think we want to see overtaking just from having a faster car. It would be a much better spectacle if the drivers were more important than the cars.

GP2's racing is better because the drivers are amateur, hence they make more mistakes and also make bolder moves. Furthermore, GP2 has less aerodynamics and s##t because the budget is low. A low budget and restrictions on aero in F1, paired with innovation, would improve on track product, but also keep the tradition and spirit of F1 without turning it into a parade of computerized driver-less technological advancements.

NASCAR used to be great racing. Then they went to common templates (semi-spec), and then the COT (total spec). The sport has sucked ever since then. With the common templates, teams started to emphasize aerodynamics and engineers and s##t to get any advantange (as advantages were limited), and the sport became a money-fueld parade just like F1.

CCWS is dead. The racing was boring compared to CART. CART had a variety of chassis suppliers and engines.

IRL's had it's ups and downs. Two of the three races were snoozers. Again, IRL pales in comparison to CART.

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:lol: Except that it's hardly necessary. Firstly, anyone who automatically trusts the NOTW because they think it is the "natural" thing to do is an idiot. Secondly, I've read posts from plenty of people who say that the "evidence" is extremely poor. Thirdly, I couldn't give a rosy spanked a## whether it was a Nazi fantasy session or not. Many people have taboo fetishes and fantasies. It doesn't give others the right to be vindictive and judgmental.

Your phrase and your posts in general suggest that it's not a significant concern for you, rather than just marginally less important. And in any case, I think it could be argued that the fair treatment of an individual is more important than who runs the FIA because once Max has been hung out to dry, the press and the idiots will simply turn to another individual, and another...

No. You could be out helping people now, at a charity or Church but you'd rather chat to me. You could have donated more money to poor people around the world who die needlessly because we're too greedy to give them medicine or food. You know these problems exist and how to combat them, so it seems like "turning a blind eye" to me.

For you, prostitution may be perfectly acceptable if it's behind closed doors, and that's fair enough. I (and many others) would disagree though. Not everyone has the same moral code, (for example I regard it to be morally wrong for a Jehovah's Witness to deny their dying child a blood transfusion to save their life). The law says it's OK, but I disagree. And I strongly disagree with the notion that I am not allowed to judge someone I believe has behaved badly just because I'm not the perfect human being. Am I not allowed to criticise Harold Shipman? Where does this line sit?

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I have a foot on both sides of the fence in this debate (and yes my nuts are sore being lodged atop this picket fence).

I agree with points that Eric and Murray make.

I like that in F1 the team makes the car inside a set of rules, but this leads to levels of competitiveness as we see today - one or two teams enjoying a huge advantage over the others and the faster cars are so far infront that no passing really happens after lap four unless it's wet.

Whereas with class racing, ala GP2, IRL you get close competitive racing as the cars are less tricked out, less turbulent in their aero signatures, and it comes down to tyre choice, pit strategy, the driver and a smaller amount of adjustable car setup variables.

A1 has a lot of passing - but the passion for the series is not there so it's ho-hum, who cares. IRL has a lot of passing, but people poo-poo it because they race on ovals...well I for one have seen donuts on sidepods from cars touching in IRL oval races, and not crash - that in itself takes balls to run that fast and that close.

Even here in NZ with our top open wheelers being the Toyota Race Series, these guys go at it tooth for leather and have passing up and down the field.

I think next year, with the removal of most of the downforce elements we may see more passing. At least I hope so. I'd rather watch a race with five lead changes and battles up and down the grid than one where even my favourite driver just drove away from everyone.

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I agree with Eric in that CART was great - three or four chassis makes, different engines and at times different tyres. The days of JV, Mansell and to a latter extent Montoya were excellent and I enjoyed watching those races far and above F1 at that time.

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I agree with Eric in that CART was great - three or four chassis makes, different engines and at times different tyres. The days of JV, Mansell and to a latter extent Montoya were excellent and I enjoyed watching those races far and above F1 at that time.

Any post that talks about the good ol' days of CART and doesn't mention Alex Zanardi and Greg Moore... :nono1:

No, really, CART kicked a##. In those days, I was a NASCAR guy above all, but boy did I love me some of them American open wheel cars. I like the IRL alright, but dammit, can we see a Panoz, Dallara, Zytek, Penske, Lola, Swift battle? How about Honda, Ford, Chevrolet, Toyota, Mercedes lumps? And bring back a goddamn US 500! That was always an entertaining race.

Oh, nostalgia!

But still, I think that the glory days of CART are something for IRL to invest in, not F1. Keep them both separate. I like my series to be different, not redundant. IRL should serve as a relatively low-cost open wheel forum with a major focus on competition and on-track product that challenges drivers and teams by racing on speedways, short ovals, street circuits, and permanent road courses. But that's a different dead capybara to go flog.

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Sorry that I forgot about Zanardi, Eric!

My humblest apologies....

I guess I should also have mentioned the Andretti's and the Fittapaldi's too to be honest...

Maybe IRL will now get back to those heydays? They have the full focus of American Open Wheeling, and there are more road and circuit tracks being added, and next year Long Beach will be a full field again too. Hopefully they will attract more sponsors and have consistant fields of upwards of 30-cars - that's when we got ourselves a division! This is what makes V8 Supercars in Aus/NZ so popular - so many teams, and put them on the right circuit, heaps of action up and down the field.

22 cars with four or more retirements a race is sad when you think about it...and if SA disappears like Arrows did (which I predicted before the start of the season) then they'll only have 20-cars! And that's crap for the so called PINNACLE of motorsport.

I agree that IRL needs a few more chassis and engine options to spice it up again....but again, maybe unification and the re-attraction of sponsors will help this happen with more money flowing back into the sport. If anything, NASCAR should be looking over their shoulders once more with a slightly worried look of what might be in the next three years.

With Danica winning, and the unification having happened, the race series getting the press in this neck of the woods has been IRL - not NASCAR....

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Not that this comic has anything to do with the thread, but I couldn't help myself-

obesemauricegetsscrewed.png

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A1 GP and GP2 and Superleague Formula and CCWS and CART in it's hey days and even F1 in it's hey days are and/or were ground-effects + slick + decent torque at least formulas.

Witch is completely missing from F1 today. As I said it numerous times, there is no magic bullet in F1 (contrary to the idiot belief of some that banning TC was gonna make things better), but many things that need to be changed in F1 for things to improve. The tires, narrow-track, engines, aero of today all need to be replaced.

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The level of response to this from the F1 community signifies also his standing amongst peers and their level of support. If they all thought he was a good guy I think we would have seen much more support and understanding.

:lol: A cynic might say there are other reasons for that though... Anyway Jean Todt was very complimentary, and Bernie was supportive. He claims to have lots of support in private.

For you, prostitution may be perfectly acceptable if it's behind closed doors, and that's fair enough. I (and many others) would disagree though. Not everyone has the same moral code, (for example I regard it to be morally wrong for a Jehovah's Witness to deny their dying child a blood transfusion to save their life). The law says it's OK, but I disagree.

No, I agree with you on those counts.

And I strongly disagree with the notion that I am not allowed to judge someone I believe has behaved badly just because I'm not the perfect human being. Am I not allowed to criticise Harold Shipman? Where does this line sit?

Obviously there is no precise formula to answer your question. Instead you have to exercise "judgment" on a case by case basis, preferably informed by humility and consideration of your own flaws.

You may argue that anyone has "behaved badly", regardless of your own flaws. But that is subtly different from being "judgmental", and dramatically different from being "vindictive" or "hypocritical". I gave you a list of quotes from famous public figures that I will repeat.

Public figures have labeled him "sick and depraved", "appalling", "insulting to millions", "a neo-Nazi sado-masochistic pervert". People have taken (perverse?) delight in exposing and ridiculing his flaws.

Given that the people who said those things are themselves personally and willfully responsible through their own greed for the deaths of thousands of innocent people, I think they have not exercised fair or humble judgment in this case. Before labeling someone "insulting to millions" you should consider what your own actions are to starving Africans.

As far as I can tell, Max legally paid consenting, clear-thinking women for sex, and in the process turned a blind eye to the problems prostitution very often causes. You and I agree that that is wrong. But I fail to see how it is worse than us all turning blind eyes to all kinds of (probably far worse and widespread) suffering when it suits us.

NASCAR used to be great racing. Then they went to common templates (semi-spec), and then the COT (total spec). The sport has sucked ever since then. With the common templates, teams started to emphasize aerodynamics and engineers and s##t to get any advantange (as advantages were limited), and the sport became a money-fueld parade just like F1.

But this is the whole point! As soon as the teams have a lot of money, and choose to spend it on engineers, then the teams become more important than the drivers, just like F1. I'd rather get rid of the teams altogether but spec-ing (with no opportunity for engineers and aero developments) is a step in the right direction. Despite me criticising him earlier, I think Handy makes it pretty clear below.

I like that in F1 the team makes the car inside a set of rules, but this leads to levels of competitiveness as we see today - one or two teams enjoying a huge advantage over the others and the faster cars are so far infront that no passing really happens after lap four unless it's wet.

Whereas with class racing, ala GP2, IRL you get close competitive racing as the cars are less tricked out, less turbulent in their aero signatures, and it comes down to tyre choice, pit strategy, the driver and a smaller amount of adjustable car setup variables.

Yup. The more variation you have between the cars, the less close the racing will be.

I think next year, with the removal of most of the downforce elements we may see more passing. At least I hope so. I'd rather watch a race with five lead changes and battles up and down the grid than one where even my favourite driver just drove away from everyone.

I agree. The more you restrict innovation - by removing aero opportunities especially, because that's probably the biggest area for innovation today, and hence the source of most of the difference in performance between teams - the closer the racing will be. F1 is dull first and foremost because one team will romp off into the distance in most GPs.

Not that this comic has anything to do with the thread, but I couldn't help myself-

obesemauricegetsscrewed.png

:lol: Yeah the cost of living sucks here!

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