Minchia!

Fire Arms...yay Or Neigh

83 posts in this topic

This is the height of naivete.

Sticks and stones...

Outlawing guns doesn't prevent death or injury, it just reduces the chance of a gun killing or injuring someone.

Eh?

Well the stats are available - quite a clear difference between the number of gun-related murders in USA and UK - go figure.

And anyway, now who's being naieve - are you seriously telling me that outlawing guns won't have any effect on deaths and injuries??? That is just so counter-intuitive, it makes no sense.

Also, you're assuming that all the legal gun owners in, say, the US are going out there and shooting people. Not so.

No, I never said that. *You* are assuming I said that.

The vast majority of gun owners are safe and injure nobody.

Phew that's a relief :) Its just the minority who are not that we have to worry about then :)

Instead of worrying over the legal gun owners, try worrying over those that have firearms illegally. This can happen in a society that allows or outlaws guns.

If someone wants a gun bad enough and are prepared to pay then they will get one whether guns are illegal or not. The level of gun ownership is very high in the USA and it is accepted as "normal" to have one by many. I was shocked when I went round a Walmart in Florida and found a glass display case full of shotguns and semi-automatic rifles and this was in the next aisle to the children's toys!

Its just too easy for people to buy them and get access to them. Witness all of the shooting in high schools....

Stands to reason - more guns = more injuries/deaths. Make it hard for people to get them - less injuries/deaths from gunshot.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

--Benjamin Franklin

"The NRA says 'guns don't kill people, people do.' But I think that the gun helps. You know? I think it helps. I think that if you just walked around going 'Bang!' you wouldn't kill too many people would you? You'd have to be really dodgy on the heart for that to work. I think that people should just try that. Walk around going 'BANG, BANG, BOOM, RATTA TAT, BOOM, RATTA TAT, BOOM!'"

-- Eddie Izzard

Edit typo

Edited by Meanioni

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Although you have poked fun at the Brits, personally I'm happy that our Government have outlawed unlicensed guns. At least I am confident my family can go about their business without the threat of some nutter killing or injuring them.

As I have said before I don't share the gung ho attitude of some gun owners and happy not to live in a society where a gun is necessary.

So ... Knives aren't the next thing to be banned?

And guns are the only way to commit murder and mayhem, eh? No problems with drunken driving, or any other misuse of a car, baseball bats, brass knuckles, high explosives, rat poison ...

And, help me with a definition here: It's illegal to commit murder. It's illegal to own a gun without a license.

What makes you think that someone who, by definition is a lawbreaker and wishes to commit murder, is suddenly going to obey a different law and not use a gun?

Personally, I wish that mankind could be trusted, but the simple fact is, he can't. As a species, we are bent on dominating everything around us to our will; believing differently is not simple naivete (and I know, I cant' spell that word right), it's downright dangerous. Blissfully believing that you're safe because "no one can have a gun" and "we don't have any criminals because we don't have any guns" sounds nice, but it simply won't happen. Someone will come along that wants your "stuff"; your money, your possessions, your life ... And if you're unwilling or unable to protect yourself or your family, that raving nutter will take them away, whether he's a common thug or a hostile ruler.

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So ... Knives aren't the next thing to be banned?

And guns are the only way to commit murder and mayhem, eh? No problems with drunken driving, or any other misuse of a car, baseball bats, brass knuckles, high explosives, rat poison ...

I think most people aren't denying the other stuff can be misused... But their beniefits outway the costs. Also those items aren't as easy to kill with than a Gun...With the Gun, you pull a trigger and its relitively easy and quick with the other things you need to really want to kill him..

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Sticks and stones...

No, I sincerely believe you are being naive. That is altogether different from hurling an insult.

Well the stats are available - quite a clear difference between the number of gun-related murders in USA and UK - go figure.

True, but when you outlaw guns, other crimes go up. Home invasions and muggings are a few that tend to go up and there are injuries and deaths involved in that too. I think a closer look at ALL the stats, and how they connect to each other, would yield a better answer than simply focusing on the gun issue.

And anyway, now who's being naieve - are you seriously telling me that outlawing guns won't have any effect on deaths and injuries??? That is just so counter-intuitive, it makes no sense.

Of course it will have an effect, I would have thought that goes without saying. Your statement that I was responding to was quite broad and general. Tell you what, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you do know that simply banning guns won't magically make you and yours 100% safer if you'll give me the same benefit for the quote above.

No, I never said that. *You* are assuming I said that.

Well, your comment was sufficiently broad that I thought I was safe in that assumption. I will stand corrected if I can get you to admit that the vast majority of legal gun owners in the US never have, and never will, pose a threat to society.

Phew that's a relief :) Its just the minority who are not that we have to worry about then :)

Indeed. As in any criminal act, regardless of the weapon of choice.

If someone wants a gun bad enough and are prepared to pay then they will get one whether guns are illegal or not. The level of gun ownership is very high in the USA and it is accepted as "normal" to have one by many. I was shocked when I went round a Walmart in Florida and found a glass display case full of shotguns and semi-automatic rifles and this was in the next aisle to the children's toys!

It's considered 'normal' because we all, on some base level and despite the anti-NRA propaganda, realize that the VAST amount of gun owners pose no threat. As to being next to the children's toys...well so are the women's underwear so should I then worry that the boys will all be trying those frilly things on and becoming...gasp...gay? Of course not. Actually, familiarity with guns at an early age tends to make more responsible gun owners in the future..the enticing taboo effect isn't there.

Its just too easy for people to buy them and get access to them. Witness all of the shooting in high schools....

Stands to reason - more guns = more injuries/deaths. Make it hard for people to get them - less injuries/deaths from gunshot.

Is the goal to eliminate all injury and death? Where do we stop? Take guns away and stop there, right? Are we saying then that the deaths caused by knives are fine? If not, then we should take away the knives too. Then what? Blunt objects? You can't eliminate risk from life, no matter how hard you try, but if you advocate removing guns and nothing else, then perhaps you aren't trying so hard after all. Perhaps it really is the illusion of doing something that is satisfying to some rather than truly doing something.

You make good points, but the difference here is perhaps cultural. America was founded in the blood of armed revolution from an unjust government hell-bent on making us yield to it's will. That is in our national DNA and it will never be removed. We wont be pushed and we will stand the line and defend ourselves and our freedoms. You brits used to be that way, we are from your stock after all, but I wonder sometimes if you've lost that resolve in your rush to be guarded and kept sheep.

In the end, I suppose we Americans are rough, uncultured barbarians but I'd rather be that than a trusting cultured sheep, dependent on the illusion of a government to make me safe and ensure my rights.

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So ... Knives aren't the next thing to be banned?

Its illegal to carry a knife in England.

And guns are the only way to commit murder and mayhem, eh? No problems with drunken driving, or any other misuse of a car, baseball bats, brass knuckles, high explosives, rat poison ...

Duh of course not! BUT why make it easy? Guns are designed with one thing in mind - to kill or cause injury, cars are not. It takes a fair amount of conscious effort and a degree of skill to kill someone with a car. Whereas a 5 year old can pick up a gun and kill someone.

And, help me with a definition here: It's illegal to commit murder. It's illegal to own a gun without a license.

? Your point being what, precisely?

What makes you think that someone who, by definition is a lawbreaker and wishes to commit murder, is suddenly going to obey a different law and not use a gun?

But again, why make it easy for them to do it?

Personally, I wish that mankind could be trusted, but the simple fact is, he can't. As a species, we are bent on dominating everything around us to our will; believing differently is not simple naivete (and I know, I cant' spell that word right), it's downright dangerous. Blissfully believing that you're safe because "no one can have a gun" and "we don't have any criminals because we don't have any guns" sounds nice, but it simply won't happen. Someone will come along that wants your "stuff"; your money, your possessions, your life ... And if you're unwilling or unable to protect yourself or your family, that raving nutter will take them away, whether he's a common thug or a hostile ruler.

Maybe in America this is true. I've lived almost 42 years on this planet, I have visited 4 different continents and cannot think of a single situation I have been in where a gun would have helped.

And believe it or not, not just England, but most of Europe is quite safe and the events you describe are relatively rare.

Besides which, I have insurance - if someone wants to nick my stuff I'll just claim on my insurance, why the hell should I want to wave a gun in their face and risk personal injury/death?

You guys seem to live in fear - look at the language: "hostile ruler". Some democracy!

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True, but when you outlaw guns, other crimes go up. Home invasions and muggings are a few that tend to go up and there are injuries and deaths involved in that too. I think a closer look at ALL the stats, and how they connect to each other, would yield a better answer than simply focusing on the gun issue.

Yes but part of the problem here is that the criminal carry guns so you have to as well - it becomes a self-fulfilling situation.... Also having a gun will give someone a sense of bravado, maybe encourage them to do things that they might not otherwise as they have a gun. e.g. if you are a 7 stone weakling, all of a sudden having a gun makes you "better" than others.

Of course it will have an effect, I would have thought that goes without saying. Your statement that I was responding to was quite broad and general. Tell you what, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you do know that simply banning guns won't magically make you and yours 100% safer if you'll give me the same benefit for the quote above.

OK, maybe in America this is true as mentioned above, many criminals carry guns. But in UK/Europe different story.

Well, your comment was sufficiently broad that I thought I was safe in that assumption. I will stand corrected if I can get you to admit that the vast majority of legal gun owners in the US never have, and never will, pose a threat to society.

Of course most people are not likely to be a threat to society. BUT by opening up gun laws you make it easier for the 0.001% of the population who are nutters to get one and do bad things. I'd rather sacrifice my liberty and not have guns knowing that this will make it harder for nutters to get one. My daughter has just finished a relationship with a guy who (she discovered) was mentally unbalanced. Having heard some of the abuse that he subjected her to - its scary. The thought of that sicko possibly having access to a gun is just beyond comprehension.

It's considered 'normal' because we all, on some base level and despite the anti-NRA propaganda, realize that the VAST amount of gun owners pose no threat. As to being next to the children's toys...well so are the women's underwear so should I then worry that the boys will all be trying those frilly things on and becoming...gasp...gay? Of course not. Actually, familiarity with guns at an early age tends to make more responsible gun owners in the future..the enticing taboo effect isn't there.

Or alternatively, it gets into the psyche of the kids and they consider it "normal".

Is the goal to eliminate all injury and death? Where do we stop? Take guns away and stop there, right? Are we saying then that the deaths caused by knives are fine? If not, then we should take away the knives too. Then what? Blunt objects? You can't eliminate risk from life, no matter how hard you try, but if you advocate removing guns and nothing else, then perhaps you aren't trying so hard after all. Perhaps it really is the illusion of doing something that is satisfying to some rather than truly doing something.

Yes, but as has been said before - guns makes it easy - you can be removed from the crime. Using a knife is a muh more difficult, intimate thing. I don't see, for example that the very sad shooting sprees that some teenagers have gone on in their schools/colleges would have happened if they only had knives. Maybe they would have attacked one or two people but I can't see them causing the same level of carnage that they did. Also I think it would be more likely that someone would have stopped them if they only had a knife. Just think how many young lives could have been saved....

You make good points, but the difference here is perhaps cultural. America was founded in the blood of armed revolution from an unjust government hell-bent on making us yield to it's will. That is in our national DNA and it will never be removed. We wont be pushed and we will stand the line and defend ourselves and our freedoms. You brits used to be that way, we are from your stock after all, but I wonder sometimes if you've lost that resolve in your rush to be guarded and kept sheep.

I think this is the crux of the matter - I have observed a sense of mistrust among many Americans - maybe rightly so in some cases. You may well call us sheep, but bear in mind England has a very, very, very long history and we have had invasions, unjust governments and civil wars too. Our cultural DNA is different though - its just not in our psyche to feel the way you do. That does not make us sheep, it just makes us different.

In the end, I suppose we Americans are rough, uncultured barbarians but I'd rather be that than a trusting cultured sheep, dependent on the illusion of a government to make me safe and ensure my rights.

I don't trust our Government, but equally I don't see how possessing a gun would change anything.

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Neigh, i dont care about feeling safe all the time, i am not scared of being murded, and i dont even have a gun, or anything, i dont even lock up when i am home.

Edited by jackgarrett

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Good points all, Mean. I do apologize for the bit of p!ss and vinegar flavoring my earlier post. I'm a crude sort, completely lacking in sophistication, and it shows ;)

I'll leave your responses, excepting two, as the final word on this. Those two I will address below, which I think get to the heart of the matter.

I'd rather sacrifice my liberty and not have guns knowing that this will make it harder for nutters to get one.

This sort of attitude is prevalent in America right now, believe it or not. Our esteemed leader agrees with you in that sacrificing people's liberty in the name of safety is a good thing. I'd rather keep my liberty and take my chances.

I don't trust our Government, but equally I don't see how possessing a gun would change anything.

You're possibly right, but I would rather not take that chance. To me it seems a mighty large gamble; a bit like putting all your life's assets on the poker table when you're holding a pair of eights. The sad thing about this is that you never really see the need until it's too late. I'm fairly well-read in the strategies and tactics of warfare and I find it telling that the first thing a conquering nation does to the conquered is confiscate their weapons.

That being said, perhaps as a youngster I watched Red Dawn too many times :P

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