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jagman

Renault Vs McLaren

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With all this talk by Jenson saying that in a few races they will match McLaren in the pace stakes and now Dennis saying they that Renault are not a problem, what do you guys think?

Renault have been very impressive this year, and McLaren (going by past seasons) have not.

Can Renault catch and beat McLaren consistantly this year?

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yeah i think they can if mclaren keep going as bad as they are but i don't think they will i think that they will start getting their cars to the finish line and scoring points.

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Look at how Renault have improved since this time last year, when they were Renault-owned-Benetton.  Have any of us seen that speed of improvement in such a short space of time.

So I believe that they will be able to beat McLaren, the top two will be a little harder to break into because, as Pat Symonds of Renault put it

"The rate of progress during the course of last year was extreme and it gets harder and harder as you get closer the top."

You can't even blame it on the tyres, as they were fighting Minardi to be slowest Michelin Runners, soon they will be wrestling McLaren to be 2nd best Michelin team.

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True, only time will tell though. I think that Mclaren will get a move on, remember that in 2000 Mika was very close to winning the championship and they really got nothing going until Spain...

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As much as I love McLaren, I think Mercedes has done a pitiful job with the engine, nothing in comparision to the machine they made in '98, maybe McLaren builds these invincible cars only every 10 yrs ending with -8'S. sEE : 1988 : That car won an incredible 15 of 16 races !!, Then 1998, the next peak will probably be 2008.

Although I pray they get their act together.

They seem to do great in Testing, and in the race, a WOEFUL lack of pace, and reliability. I'm beginning to depress myself.... :(

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I believe Renault will overhaul McLaren this year, at their current rate of improvement. There are some additional engine and chassis modifications for Imola. I haven't heard about many improvements for the McLaren, most notably in the engine, which rumour has it only produces 790-800 hp.  

Perhaps all the financial problems being experienced by Ilmor are affecting their engine program. It's hard to imagine that it wouldn't. Look what instability does to teams like Jaguar, BAR, and Arrows.

Renault and Toyota will make the top three into the top 5 sooner rather than later.

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Toyota are just incredible aren't they ? I remember BAR promising the Sky back in '99, which of course rebounded as pie in the face with 11 DNF's for villenueve ! :D  

Toyota : no BS, but they go out and overachieve, I love those guys, and Mika Salo is a great racer, not much of a qualifier though like his namesake...pity that. ???

Anyway back to the thread, Yes, Andrew I'd say I was wrong, bad choice of words there, shouldn't've added pace. Oh well, hope they've got their stuff right.

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This I think must be the first topic I've read where everyone seems to be agreeing about the main point, just a little arguing about the details.

Is that right eff1 about approx 800 hp, were they not claiming that ammount at some point in 1999 (shortly after Cosworth announced a large HP increase for Stewart) if so thats a long time with no increase in HP.

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Yes, the figure of 790-800 seems low these days, but it was the figure quoted during a Speedchannel broadcast by David Hobbs, I believe during the course of the Malaysia broadcast.

I suspect, like a lot of tech stuff in F1, that it is more of a rumour than a fact. Preseason estimates for the BMW were 900+, which I think were a little high. But apparently Frank did say that they would have 900 hp to qualify with by years end.

I think hp figures are inflated on a regular basis.

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It really isn't much information that we're running on if we know merely the HP's of a car, the torque curve + the HP's, : that could give some serious insight, which is why nobody gives out their torque curve; to the best of my knowledge, do correct me if I'm wrong; so figuratively the teams are merely 'Horse Thumpers', as opposed to being 'Horse Whisperers'   :D (lame joke directed at Robert Redford's movie)

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Andrew, actually Mclaren kept to their word by getting better after the flyaways last year. DC and Mika qualified on the front row, and DC went on to claim second with Mika fourth. Definitely better than Mika's sixth place in Malaysia and DNF in Australia, and then of course the DNS (did not start!) in Brazil.

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Exactly Andrew how many year stright have they blamed the flyaways, the answer is 4.

In fact in the last 4 years the total points Mclaren in early season flyaways is 39 point in 10 races/20 (attempted) starts.  And most of those (21) were in the dreadful 2001.

Which, coincidently, is how many they did get in 98's 3 flyaways 39 points.

As Andrew said they are a top team, really why start your season when you return to Europe.  And whilst not as bad as early season McLaren are recently never great out of Europe.  Bearing this in mind why are McLaren not noisily opposing all these GP bids from outside of Europe.

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true, bearing in mind that they have a lot of money with them, why not put that to good use to do well in the beginning races in the season??? wonder if this idea ever struck Ron after those races all thru the last 3 sewasons till date.

:)

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Money on it's own is no guarentee of success just look at Jaguars entire F1 campain, BAR's debut, Ferrari from 84-87 and 90-96.  But money is some sort of guarentee when you are, as McLaren are, a front line team with front line staff.

This lack of consistance nearly gave Irvine the title in 1999, he would have been the luckist WC since Rosberg in 82 or maybe Prost in 86.

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I think that the case at Mclaren is a underpowered engine teamed up with a magnificent aerodynamic and mechanical package. It makes sense, as their cars havent been fast on the straights (setting about 7-14 less kph than BMW) but they are speedy on the twisty parts. Makes sense as Raikkonen was fast in Australia as Coulthard probably would have been because it is not a speed track. Mclaren was fast in the second sector of Malaysia, the one without a real long straight.

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This would help explain why JPM got away from Kimi in Australia. The killer for them then is that this will make overtaking very difficult (if not impossible) for them. They may be able to catch BMW and Ferrari bet they don

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I think Mercedes will pick up the pace, but I wonder if DC will. He's been slow lately, with Raikkonen pretty much outpacing him the whole of Friday except for the one lap that DC put in on low fuel.

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The Ferrari fans hope they pick up pace as well as the McLaren fans, it will be the Williams and Renault fans who have the most to fear if McLaren can get the ball rolling again.

As for DC getting slower the only drivers in the history of the Championship to have a longer F1 life before becoming champ is Mansell and Andretti and he's certainly not in that league, so it's not suprising he's getting slower.  His time is up.

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As you all well know I am no DC fan. I was wondering, were similar things being said about Mansell and Andretti just before they became champions?

I am inclined to agree with you nichosnz. I doubt that these guys given the car DC has had for some years now wouldn

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Well I used the word longer that implies time.  Andretti only had 3 full F1 season before becoming champ so I doubt his ability was in question.

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You must remember with DC that he has only driven for top level teams pretty much, having his time at Williams after Ayrton's death and then Mclaren - both who have had several championship material cars.

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