tifosi too!

Indeed!!! According to all the info so far!

This thread needs a title change! Keep the ugly ones coming in guys! Excellent stuff ! I hadn't even seen most of them before! Such a topic definitely deserves it's own space! Just make sure it doesn't go off topic again and we end up with a bunch of pictures of ugly exes! Some of those ugly noses brought back memories!!

Really sad news. My condolences to his family and friends. From what we got to know of him, he must have been a unique character. RIP, Bruce.

If they crash again, I'm putting Flavio's quote about them in my sig!!!

Ha ha!! This is absolutely fantastic!! Excuse me for quoting Flavio but this bit from his interview was epic:

I didn't say Massa didn't know he was there. It was Hamilton's duty to control his car and avoid contact. In the video I just can't understand how can you see Hamilton next to Massa, especially after seeing clearly he hit the area just in front of his rear wheel. So there is no such thing as an 'overlap' rule and therefore no-one can be penalized for violating it, right? Even the stewards or other commenters never used this term so I 'll just leave it at that. The reason I was a bit cynical about it was that it was passed on as 'legislation' of the sport, when in fact it isn't. What I meant was that Massa couldn't have known in the meantime between the time he last checked Hamilton's whereabouts and when they came in contact, if Hamilton had been mentally prepared for the scenario where he would have to brake, hard or not, to avoid contact. By 'braking' I mean a series of avoiding measures as a back-up when things don't go as planned. Hamilton had count on Massa taking a trip to the grassier areas perhaps, that's why his overtaking manoeuvre failed. I assure you I have total respect in your knowledge or expertise but we simply have different views on this. I might be a Ferrari fan, but don't mistake this as an attempt to defend Massa or anything. My problem is the way racing on track should be like. So what if Massa got a drive through? Did he lose the championship because of that or anything? My concern is about the rules that can't have been properly interpreted.

With all due respect but Massa didn't say what you said: Here it is: Isn't this exactly what happened? He meant he didn't see him while he was turning in, which is true. He hit his rear wheel! There is an onboard video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaVaOFDy3C4

It wasn't exactly the same because it was a slower corner, but in any case I can't see why I should discuss it. Why not talk about the matter at hand? Also I don't seem to recall Massa saying he didn't see Hamilton. I didn't read anything like that since the race.

I agree with this guy. He doesn't seem to know anything about 'overlaps' though so take what he writes with a grain of salt! Analysis: Coulthard backs Massa David Coulthard has come out firmly on the side of Felipe Massa over the Indian GP penalty that left anyone with eyes in their head incredulous. Thirteen-time GP winner Coulthard, now a TV pundit for BBC television, said immediately after the incident that he feared a penalty for Hamilton. "For me it was a racing incident," Coulthard said in his UK Daily Telegraph newspaper column. "At worst I felt Lewis was more to blame. I simply can't understand how Felipe could have been deemed the guilty party. "As drivers we are always taught that the car behind is responsible so to my mind the stewards misinterpreted what happened. "If Lewis had got that far up alongside Felipe into a tight hairpin, where the braking zone is maybe 100 metres and lasts for a few seconds, then I think Massa would have been right to give way. But heading into a fourth gear left-hander at maybe 150-160km/h? Where the braking zone lasts for one second? I don't think Massa can be held responsible." Coulthard added: "It was almost as if they felt that with Lewis receiving so many decisions against him this year, they were trying to redress the balance." Johnny Herbert, the driver steward on the FIA panel in India, has said since the race: "The decision to penalise Massa for his contact with Hamilton came down to one simple fact - it could have been avoided. I know Massa was upset by our decision, but I believe we made the right call. "After looking at it from different camera angles and studying all the data, it was clear that Massa knew where Hamilton was before he chose to turn across him. There was nothing Hamilton could have done to avoid it. He did try to get out of the move but it was too late." There aren't so much holes in Herbert's justification, as craters. Of course it could have been avoided, but why does that make it Massa's fault? Hamilton should have backed out of it much sooner. He shouldn't have still been there when it became clear he wasn't going to make the move stick. The key point is Coulthard's comment about the driver behind being responsible. This would appear to be news to a depressingly large number of people posting rubbish on sundry websites and bulletin boards, but is obvious to anyone who has competed in anything beyond the school sack race. The fact is that Hamilton almost got alongside Massa early in the run to Turn 5 by deploying KERS. That then ran out and he no longer had the additional momentum that would have brought him fully alongside, as would have occurred had, for example, he had a much better exit from Turn 4. Compounding that, Hamilton was on the dirty side of the track, as evidenced by the dust he was kicking up, while Massa went right to take the normal racing line. Those combined factors afforded the Ferrari much more grip and therefore the opportunity to brake later and reclaim the initial ground that Hamilton had made before they reached the turn-in point. It is the position of the cars at the turn-in point that matters and as can be clearly seen from video footage of the incident, Hamilton's right front makes contact with Massa's left rear. End of story. Forget the personalities involved or any of that, any racing driver who cedes a corner from the position Massa was in, needs to quickly look for an alternative career. The reasoning behind such etiquette is simple enough. On the run up a straight to a corner you can jockey for position, check your mirrors, attack, defend, do whetever, but when you reach the turn-in point and commit, you are looking ahead of you. A full field of peripheral vision is 180 degrees. Not many have it. For most people it's somewhere between 140 degrees and 180 degrees. And hence, if you are looking ahead and someone is not right alongside you, you are not going to see them. Of course you might know they are there but you are not obliged to accommodate them. Hence the existence of the universally accepted rule that the guy behind is responsible. If the guy is all but alongside you, you may in some cases cede, for instance if he's on a grippier bit of road or a better line. But cede position when the guy's front is level with your rear and you are on the racing line? Not a chance. Ferrari team principal Stefano Domenicali was humorously ironic when it was pointed out that Hamilton and Massa seemed to be attracted like magnets. "Yes," he laughed, "but which one is the positive and which one the negative!" He added: "I have to respect the decision of the referee even if I was very surprised. Felipe was ahead at the entrance to the corner and had the line..." The situation between the two drivers is starting to go a bit beyond a joke. Thankfully, McLaren's Martin Whitmarsh says it's not the time to stage a hand-shake outside the garage. That would be about as credible as the one between Ron Dennis and Max Mosley at Spa in '07 after Spygate... But they probably do need to have a quiet chat and get it sorted. It's all getting a bit tedious even if it is manna for the tabloids.

After reading the explanation of the penalty Massa was given, by Johnny Herbert, who was the driver-steward, I remain totally unconvinced and I believe it sets bad precedents for F1. Link is here, text below. Felipe Massa fully deserved his drive-through penalty at the Indian Grand Prix, according to the driver steward that weekend, Johnny Herbert. The former Formula 1 driver is adamant that the Brazilian knew where Lewis Hamilton was, and failed to leave necessary room to avoid an accident, despite Massa claiming innocence. The Ferrari driver said immediately after the race, that he didn't understand why he had been punished, firmly placing the blame of long-term rival, Hamilton. "I don't understand why I have the penalty," confessed Massa. "I braked later than him, I was in front and on the grippier part of the circuit and I didn’t see him on the left. So he was behind and he touched my rear wheel." Writing in his column for The National though, Herbert took the time to explain his reasoning behind the penalty. "The decision to penalise Felipe Massa for his contact with Lewis Hamilton came down to one simple fact - it could have been avoided," wrote the 47-year-old. "I know Massa was upset by our decision, but I believe we made the right call. After looking at it from different camera angles and studying all the data available to us, it was clear that Massa knew where Hamilton was before he chose to turn across him. "There was nothing Hamilton could have done to avoid it. He did try to get out of the move, but it was too late and the contact was made." This is not an acceptable reason to give a penalty, in my opinion at least and I 'm pretty sure many people may think otherwise. In any case, does that mean... That now the car in front must give up position if the driver thinks that the driver chasing him may crash into him while trying to overtake? The driver of the car in front must assume the other driver is indeed trying to crash into him in fast corners with little braking rather than pressuring him, especially now with the DRS and KERS where the faster car can literally breeze by in the straight and therefore act based on assumption? What if Hamilton decided to brake before they crashed, as he should have? Surely a driver of Hamilton's caliber would have been able to execute such manouvre. So why was Massa acting un-sportingly since he couldn't possibly know if Hamilton was just pushing him hard? F1 cars have phenomenal braking power so Massa should have had to be able to calculate in milliseconds that Hamilton would indeed go for the overtake instead of playing mind games.Was that something he had to be penalized or even blamed for? If a driver keeps the racing line and is more than half the car ahead while turning in, does he have to get off line and let the car he is fighting for a position with to pass? This will be an issue in the future. That Massa had intention to cause an accident and had to be penalized? Cars in F1 run very closely many times during a race and each driver is responsible for his actions. The incident happened at a fast corner that cars take in 4th gear, as I read somewhere. Was the overtaking manouvre that well executed that the accident happened because of Massa's actions? Where was he supposed to go, or do? If a driver now shoots down the inside every car he comes across, the car in front must let him pass in order not to cause an accident? I'm sure there are more 'dark spots' on this ruling but I trust you guys to dig them out. I 'm aware we don't have the evidence the stewards had but I just can't understand how the driver in front can be blamed.

As a team supporter, I tend to disagree!! I started watching F1 because I wanted to see Ferraris racing, well back in the day that is. I believe teams are the heart of the sport and unless you are a Ferrari fan or seriously support a team for any reason, then this may be hard to understand! I guess if you view F1 from a driver-oriented perspective, then you are bound to fall out of love with the sport. To put it simply, I just want Ferrari to win every race and have the fastest drivers!! Many years may pass and many drivers will come and go, but I can always hope to see the team do well in the next GP, or hire the best driver in the field and try to get out of the midfield. I don't know if I 'll ever get tired of this, but I'm just as interested in the technical aspects of the sport, for which the team has to take the credit, not to take out the driver input or contribution. I'm too much in a hurry to explain this well enough, but I 'll be back!!!

This is excellent!!

Just the usual race weekend for him! He really should try to get his head together! He doesn't seem to pay much attention to other drivers. I don't think he is being overly selfish or something, just that something is wrong with him. I think he needs a break!

I 'm not really sure yet! I guess "loitering with intent" for now but I find myself coming to the forums more often!! I never really left, I was just on "silent"!!