Ecclestone - Klien is what F1 needed

[Senna 0]

Webber has yet to prove he has any real ability in an F1 car. He has only beaten a few F1 rookies – Alex Yoong (What an achievement!), Justin Wilson etc and none of them are established names or indeed rated highly!

[Mika 0]

Well said Alistair, but perhaps you didn't need to post it twice! Mark Webber is certainly overated though - Kimi is the best.

[Senna 0]

F1 needs 5 things:

1. A ban on all electronic gismos.

2. A return to slick tyres and Turbo engines.

3. Cost reduction and more privateers.

4. A one race per country rule – to get rid of France, Germany and Italy each having 2 GPs.

5. More personalities.

[nojvnof1 0]

name them, I'm sure I can answer back to most if not all of them. Just don't mention PR or lack of results as reasons cos they weren't. The reason was that DR wanted to clear EVERYTHING from the old guard at BARf, which included JV, plus Honda insisted that Sato get the drive alongside JB or else goes their sponsorship $$. Don't beleive that JV had a chance at staying with BARf, Sato had a contract which said testing in '03, racing in '04.

shaun

ok on to the list well u all redy took out 1 and 2 os we will start from 3

3. he cost 2 much

4. he was not vaule 4 money

5. he did not bring new sponsers

6. DR did not like him

7. JV is an up tight prick

8. he bitched 2 much about the car and the engine

9. he thinks he is better that every1

10. hes team mate was faster on most occasions

and 11. hes is well past hes used by date he was fast from 1996 2 1999 not 2004

and theres r only the 1s i know im shour there are some more that only JV, DR and BAR now about

webber,

now you're just talking s##t, seriously, your arguments are pathetic, and thats being kind. Now I will counterargue all your weak points.

3. BAT decided to pay JV as much as he got. He is a World Champion and was very attractive for BAT's marketing, you want an overpaid driver, try Ralf who is now the second most expensive driver.

4.Not value for money is absolute bulls##t. His driving style is praised by many in the know journos and his attacking nature is loved by many fans. His out there and straight forward personality attracts attention to, like the '97 saga when he called the rules s##t, when he called the drivers sissies after they didnt want to qualify in brazil this year cos it was too wet and when he was the ONLY driver to go against M$' proposal to not pass at Monza '01 stating the fans paid for a race and would get one. As Joe Saward wrote, 'there was always a buzz in the air when JV was on a hot lap'.

5. He shouldn't bring new sponsors. All the top drivers didnt bring them. He's not a pay driver and BARf isn't a poor team by any means.

6. Who cares if the boss doesn't like him?? DR didn't want him because Honda wanted their boy Sato in the car. He had a contract and if that didnt happen they would forfeit their sponsorship $$$. Many drivers have testy r/ships with their bosses but still remain in the team. eg Montoya.

7. It seems you're the uptight prick with all these s##tty reasons for kicking a driver out of a team. How old are you anyways, 12, 13?? All drivers are uptight to a degree.

8. So he should bitch about the car and engine the way it was performing. Blowing up every race whenever he was in a chance of podiums and points. Every driver bitches about their car. If it were up to you, there would be no drivers in f1. And don't say webber doesn't bitch about the car, he did so a couple days ago.

9. Every driver thinks they're better than everyone. If they didn't they'd lost the psychological battle which is half of the challenge. To be psychologically weak is a major flaw.

10. JV has been faster than every teammate he's had, except Hill and Button to a degree. Button did well in quali because he ran a lot lighter than JV. Take Spain this year, he only had 10 laps worth of fuel.

11. You say he was fast b/w 96 and 99. You obviously haven't watched F1 since then. 2000 was his best ever season. He performed miracles in that car, qualifying well, scoring points, and making legendary starts. 2001 he got 2 podiums and was generally qualifying well. 2002 was a bitch, but 2002 US gp showed his class. And this year, did you see how long he held of M$, whilst everyone else moved over for him. France and Australia friday quali also showed his immense speed and talents.

try and come up with some more and I'll prove how wrong you are, seriously, that was pathetic.

shaun

[webber 0]

What ignorance!  F1 isn't about PR work.  Top drivers like MS and JV don’t need to advertise – they are household names.  Secondly, it appears you’ve jumped on the Webber bandwagon.  Mark Webber appears to be quick but there is no way of telling and I think he is overrated.  He has never had a quick, experienced teammate.  In fact, all of his teammates have been rookies with not even a season behind them!  So all his teammates are trying to learn the car, track and tyres etc while Mark posts a time and everyone thinks he’s amazing.  And don’t go on about Williams wanting him because that doesn’t say much – look at their signings since 1997:  Frentzen (OK), Ralf Schumacher (consistently destroyed by Montoya and doesn’t seem to know how to overtake or race his brother!), Zanardi (A legend in Cart but didn’t cut the mustard in F1), Button (inexperienced playboy), Montoya (The exception – a really good signing)!

a part of beening a driver is PR u have 2 keep the sponsers happy and if u dont the sponsers go away so then u have less money then u get va s##t car. and if ur going 2 talk over fatted lets talk button and Alonso, R$ and fisa dont so some 1 is over retted and not recognise the rest. yes webber has hade some s##t team mates but look at wo fisa has hade and some people think that he is all that.

MIKA

ur man eavien said that all the yong drivers r over rated

[webber 0]

NOJVNOF1: well heare is what i have 2 say bake

3. yes BAT payed 4 an x-world champ but arnt there talks about BAT leaving BAR (i might be rong so im sorry if i eam)

4. by calling the rules s##t hes calling F1 s##t so then y did he stay in it 4 6 more years. jes the fans in 96 97 and 98 liked him but im a fan from 02, 03 and 04 so thats befour my time. and at Brazil every driver ended up qulalify. and when M$ is on a hot lap there is a buzz in the air thats along whith JPM, KR, R$, RB, DC along whith the rest of the F1 grid

5. yes a good driver should bring new sponsers look at JPM he got williams the BUD light sponser and M$ most of ferrari sponsers

6.please tell me whos the 1 that says " jack we dont wont u ur FIRED" yes that right it DR the boss and the only reason y JPM has stayed at willimas is because he is such a good driver a lot bett that JV

7. yes all drivers r up tight 2 a dregree but JV is somes times the worse (but this is only ehwn he is around his team mate and M$ and no dude im 15. theres no reason 2 go calling some 1 a name just because they dont like ur man (jv), u dont eavien know what i look like

8. i never said webber never bitched about the car but whith JV is was (in 2003) the cars falt when he was going bad and when he was going good it was him. buttons car did not fail sa much as JVs so maby its just the way he drives

9. ok yes ur right but i dont think that the rookie in the minardi thinks hes better that M$ of eaven the mid feald drivers

10. yes but also button has started from 20, 18 and 19 and nelly ened up in the points

11. so 4 the past 2 years u have "it was a btich" and he held up M$ 4 less that harf the race and dont say that all the other drivers let him throw because u know that that is bulls##t

[Senna 0]

Yep…the fact that Fisichella has never been in a good team does suggest he’s not all that good as the top teams have not been attracted to him, but that might change soon…

[TotalF1 Jens 0]

Keep fact ahead of opinion. JV is a world champion, and beat more experienced rivals with finesse and beauty. He may not have done much PR work, which is also a fact, but that doesn't account for anything on track. Calling him names isn't a valid argument.

Anyway, I don't exactly think it is fair to say Fisi's teammates have been poor. He was up against Wurz and Button for example. He is good, but hasn't been able to prove it. He was up against Firman last year, and Firman isn't a bad driver in any respect. He certainly deserves to be in F1, though I favour Allan McNish over him to get the Jordan seat

[webber 0]

ok sorry most of that came from my hate of JV but a nother fatck is that there is no JV in F1 4 2004

[webber 0]

but fisa beat most of his now big name team mates when thay were yong and R$ is not a hard team mate 2 beat

[nojvnof1 0]

NOJVNOF1: well heare is what i have 2 say bake

3. yes BAT payed 4 an x-world champ but arnt there talks about BAT leaving BAR (i might be rong so im sorry if i eam)

4. by calling the rules s##t hes calling F1 s##t so then y did he stay in it 4 6 more years. jes the fans in 96 97 and 98 liked him but im a fan from 02, 03 and 04 so thats befour my time. and at Brazil every driver ended up qulalify. and when M$ is on a hot lap there is a buzz in the air thats along whith JPM, KR, R$, RB, DC along whith the rest of the F1 grid  

5. yes a good driver should bring new sponsers look at JPM  he got williams the BUD light sponser and M$ most of ferrari sponsers  

6.please tell me whos the 1 that says " jack we dont wont u ur FIRED" yes that right it DR the boss and the only reason y JPM has stayed at willimas is because he is such a good driver a lot bett that JV

7. yes all drivers r up tight 2 a dregree but JV is somes times the worse (but this is only ehwn he is around his team mate and M$ and no dude im 15. theres no reason 2 go calling some 1 a name just because they dont like ur man (jv), u dont eavien know what i look like  

8. i never said webber never bitched about the car but whith JV is was (in 2003) the cars falt when he was going bad and when he was going good it was him. buttons car did not fail sa much as JVs so maby its just the way he drives

9. ok yes ur right but i dont think that the rookie in the minardi thinks hes better that M$ of eaven the mid feald drivers

10. yes but also button has started from 20, 18 and 19 and nelly ened up in the points  

11. so 4 the past 2 years u have "it was a btich" and he held up M$ 4 less that harf the race and dont say that all the other drivers let him throw because u know that that is bulls##t

webber,

3. the talk about BAT leaving BAR revolves around the fact that tobacco sponsorship will be seriously decreased in 2006. JV is a proven champion and deserves all he got. Besides whats that got to do with his salary??

4. He called the rules s##t because he has an opinion and unlike the toddlers out there, voiced it. He didnt call F1 s##t, he called the new rules s##t, and they are. Grooved tyres r nothing but a joke. They're less safe than slicks as there is more grip on the road thus a greater chance of catching a car if you lost it. He stayed because F1 is the pinnacle where the best show their skill, he's won all there was to win ie. Indy 500, CART title. If you're a fan from '02 how do you know he was quick from 96 to 99 but dont count 2000 and 2001. Your bias just shows. 2000 was his best year, better than 1997 as he proved his sheer skill and speed in a car outside the top 3. Plus he was quick this year, his car kept blowing up on him. You want value for money, try JV at spa in '98 and '98 trying to take Eau Rouge flat. OK he crashed but at least he had the balls to try it. I paid my money just to see JV, noone else. Yes, in the end they did qualify in Brazil, because the conditions were good. JV epitimises the racers racer, and is in the mould of his late great father Giles.

5. JPM didnt bring BUD, Williams people resposible for sponsorship portfolio did. What are you tripping on?? The best don't bring sponsors, thats for the pay drivers in the lesser teams. M$ didnt bring most of their sponsors. Phillip Morris (Marlboro) linked Ferrari with Vodafone so when the tobacco ban kicks in, they will have a major sponsor ready to take over. Check your facts, you're getting worse and worse.

6. DR told JV that so as not to show that Sato had a contract signed for '04. Everyone knew that, if Jacques didnt' than he's paying the price. JV doesn't have a drive for this year because when the scheming DR told JV he would be out of a drive, they were all taken. In an issue of Autosport, Sauber said they would have signed him had their line up not been decided already. DR plotted JV out of f1, thats why he released him so late, so he wouldn't get a drive. I don't know the validity of this but I'll say it anyway, but Ferrari were very interested in opening discussions with Jacques but didnt because M$ told them not to. He's out of F1 because of dirty politics and people who can't handle people who tell it like it is. Oh you're so wrong, JPM is not as good as Jacques yet. He's too inconsistent, but he could and should improve. The only reason JPM stayed at Williams was because McLaren didnt offer enough for his early release. Williams offered a contract extension during 1998 but he decided to go to BAR. He decided to go to BAR just when other teams, such as McLaren wanted to open discussions. He didn't play each team off for more money, and signed for BAR as soon as he was ready to. At the end of 1999 Williams offered JV a contract to rejoin them. If he did, Button probably wouldnt be in F1.

7. How is being an uptight prick a valid reason to get rid of a driver? I couldnt care less what you look like. Your arguments and arrogant attitude made you sound like a 12 yr old uptight prick and I only called it as I saw it. You say theres no reason to call people names just because you don't like them, you should practice what you preach kid.

8. I don't know why JB's car didnt fail as much. Conspiracy theory or not, fact is the reliability on Jacques' car was disgraceful. He was mostly in positions to score points and the car would suddenly fail. Can't he complain? Should he just grin and bear it? We're talking about a driver used to success at the highest level and a proven champion. He is entitled to do as he did. When he did well, Monza this year, the first thing he said was that it was great for the team as it gained the points in constructors title and then he said it was good for him personally, once again check you facts. When he got the podiums he always mentioned it was great motivation and reward for the TEAM.

9. JV thinks he's the best because he knows that given the right equipment he could beat the best, and that he did. He only had 1 shoot out against M$, and JV won convincingly. M$ cracked, not JV, and this was when all the pressure was on Jacques to win and not M$.

10. Button did beat Jacques on occasions, but JV also beat Jenson. Jf Jacques had the same reliability as Jenson he would have matched, if not beaten him in terms of points, not by much, but enough.

11. What I meant was that everyone was passed so easily by M$, but when he came up to Jacques he tried many many times but didnt succeed, even with superior aero, speed etc. If it was bulls##t, I wouldnt have written it. Admittedly before Kimi, Alonso came into F1, Patrick Head stated in Autosport, and I quote "Although Mika has taken a couple of titles away from him, I beleive the driver Michael fears most is Jacques" Argue with me all you like, but not with what Patrick says.

I was honestly hoping JV wouldnt get the second drive at Jag, becuase Jag can't run a second car. I really think CK is in for a tough year. As for Webber he showed his colours when he stated he didnt want JV as his teammate as he doesnt have enough experience. Now thats bulls##t. He's never had a quick teammate and was packing himself at the thought of JV ruining his party at Jag. You're right on one thing, fact is Jacques Villeneuve isn't in F1 in 2004, but I hope he returns in '05 purely to show the doubters with pathetic reasons for excluding him out of a sport he deserves a spot in, how wrong you all are and how right his fans have been all along.

shaun

[nojvnof1 0]

Just realised a small error in my previous post. I meant to say JV took Eau Rouge flat in '98 and '99, not '98 and '98. :oops:

shaun

[nichosnz 0]

refering to point 8. this for some reason seems to be a common occurance in F1, one driver getting more or less reliability than his team-mate. eg Villeneuve('s car) was more reliable than Panis in 2002 yet Button was more reliable than JV in 2003.

Also on the pro-JV side of the arguement, he stacked up very well matching Panis, a driver who was rated by Ron Dennis as being the equal of Mika and DC. So JV has lost not much, or even none of his speed.

[webber 0]

3.u said that BAT paied 4 JV in 98 (or 99) so i thort that Bat stilled paied 4 him now

4.i said he was good in 96 to 99 because hes the 97 champ so he must of been good 2 be champ but he was also better that hes team mate up till 2002

5. the only resion y BUD singed whith Williams was because of JPM. BUD eaven said that they only sponsed williams because whith JPM in the car it whould make more south Amarcians 2 drink there beer.

6.so there u think that dr did not wont JV going faster that his BAR's

10 button beat JV in qualfing 8/7 but yea it was close

11. ok sorry i thort i ment let M$ pass

and yea jags 2end car is crap (well was in 2003)but u also say that the drivers should have more pursnailty, but then when webber talks out its because he dont wont 2 be beation.

[nojvnof1 0]

webber,

BAT paid the wages for JV and their other drivers throughout his whole time at BARf.

I've got nothing against Webber voicing his opinion, its good, even if it's against JV, but I was just reading into what he was saying, I didn't put him down for actually voicing his opinion. JV beat Panis in 2002. The car was such a dog it was a terrible year. The only time they were competitive was in UK, but that's because it rained and they were on Bridgestones, Jacques finished ahead of Panis. As for Button, there's no validity in doing qualifying comparisons now that the fuel load counts, but yes it was very close and JB did well, however he ran on significantly less fuel than JV on more than one occasion.

Yes BUD did sign to promote their product in South America, but why do you think BAR started in the first place?? The answer is to market their Lucky Strike brands in Nth America using Villeneuve, thats not an opinion, thats a fact. So in a sense, JV did bring a sponsor, and their major one at that. BUD aren't personal sponsors of JPM, ala Trust with Jos, so JPM didnt bring them, his nationality was favourable. If he was say an average 'Joe Smith' from Australia but with the same driving talents, I doubt BUD would have signed. JPM was from the right region, thats all.

As for DR, I could write a whole piece on what I think of his tactics and attitude towards JV, all I'll say is that he was very deceitful to JV by constantly telling him he had a chance at staying with BARf when even I knew he had no chance as Sato had a contract and Honda (marketing ppl, not the engineers going by an article with JV after Monza) wanted Sato too. He should have made it public mid year that JV was out so he could pursue another drive, if he wasnt doing so already, even for '05. Sauber came out and said that signing JV would have been a PR delight for the team, and JV would probably have signed for them. Fisi and JV would have been a great team. Two underrated drivers in very good cars, well they would have been in a blue ferrari. Even Jacques himself said he would have had no problems with DR saying he was out for '04 mid year as it would have been respectful and allowed all the speculation to end and let BARf and Jacques end their relationship with less acrimony, if this happened, then JV would have raced at Suzuka, and going by its speed and RELIABILTY there, he would have done very well indeed.

shaun

[webber 0]

but M$ might of told ferrari 2 tell sauber 2 not let JV drive because thats the type of person M$ is

[jagger 0]

After reading nojvnof1/webber's comments on J.V I can see both your points and without a doubt he used to be a good driver.But from what i know after workin for a few years at B.A.R while he was there is what a negative affect on the team he has with his out spoken views/comments of the car (which people work there nuts off to make).This is why he no longer has a drive,and B.A.R are better off without him.

A quote which sums J.V to a T is "the older i get the better i was".

[webber 0]

wow were u an engineer at BAR

i wont 2 be a engineer at minardi of somthing

[marina 0]

So many of you posted your comments on this subject, after reading such long comments, I still do not agree that a good F1 driver needs to have personality.

I follow a lot of sports in the USA and we do not look for personality but speed and good driving. Some of you might say that matters, but do you go and see motorsports because of the driver's personality?

Maybe in the 80's there were drivers that spoke more their opinion, but that was not the reason why the 80's was so good.

This year we have already heard some driver's comments about the other drivers and they do not interest me at all. Who cares if Mark Webber likes one driver and not the others, who cares if one driver thinks if the other one is going to win or if this or other driver is going to stay on at F1?

Is this the personality we need?

Webber - I am sure Schummie would love to be able to order Ferrari around but I assure you that he is just a driver. Now for you to say that he tells Ferrari what to buy or sell just so that JV can be left out, please.

JV couldnt even get a ride for free.

[nichosnz 0]

Webber - I am sure Schummie would love to be able to order Ferrari around but I assure you that he is just a driver. Now for you to say that he tells Ferrari what to buy or sell just so that JV can be left out, please.

JV couldnt even get a ride for free.[/b]

And he certainly has no control over Sauber, BTW the Sauber drivers were signed and sealed before JV was released.

[nojvnof1 0]

 

So many of you posted your comments on this subject, after reading such long comments, I still do not agree that a good F1 driver needs to have personality.

I follow a lot of sports in the USA and we do not look for personality but speed and good driving. Some of you might say that matters, but do you go and see motorsports because of the driver's personality?

Maybe in the 80's there were drivers that spoke more their opinion, but that was not the reason why the 80's was so good.

This year we have already heard some driver's comments about the other drivers and they do not interest me at all. Who cares if Mark Webber likes one driver and not the others, who cares if one driver thinks if the other one is going to win or if this or other driver is going to stay on at F1?

Is this the personality we need?

Webber - I am sure Schummie would love to be able to order Ferrari around but I assure you that he is just a driver. Now for you to say that he tells Ferrari what to buy or sell just so that JV can be left out, please.

JV couldnt even get a ride for free.

My point regarding JV and Sauber was that by the time JV was released, he had no chance to talk with other teams as he was publically released at the very last minute. I have the issue of Autosport where in an article Sauber himself says he would have been very interesting in opening discussions with JV but his line up was decided.

As for M$ I believe he would have had nothing to do with Sauber picking their drivers, but I read an article today which said that Ferrari didnt want to extend Ruben's contract but did so on the "sheer insistence and pressure" placed by M$. Make of that what you will.

Jagger, love the quote, can't remember when he said that though. I feel he is a better driver now than when he was in '97. He's more consistent and wiser. The 2000 season was the best example of this. I feel it was a far better year for him consistency wise as he was mostly fighting the ferraris and McLarens in an inferior car. As for his comments on the car, nothing personal, but if it allowed him to finish a race and utilise his strategy better than he wouldn't have bitched as much as he did. I can't remember him bitching a lot in 2000 when the car was good and reliable. From what I've read and heard, he's praised the car a lot this year for its sheer speed and driveability. In his interview with Mick Doohan at the German GP which was shown here is Aust, he praised its speed and Jenson. He was at his harshest towards the end '01 and '02 when both he and Panis just slid down the sheets. The car was a dog until Willis arrived and he seems to have sorted the problems out.

shaun

[Senna 0]

A good driver does not `need to have personality` but it is an advantage. And if drivers didn’t tell the media what they thought about each other we wouldn’t have a very good show would we? F1 is not just confined to the track – there is a lot of politics involved.

[marina 0]

A good driver does not `need to have personality` but it is an advantage.  And if drivers didn

[webber 0]

yep and the pursnalitys r just a side show

[Senna 0]

Of course the racing is the most important aspect of F1 but interesting drivers are of course a bonus. You wouldn’t have as good track racing if the drivers didn’t have feuds. What is more interesting, JV v MS in Ferraris or Ralf V David in Ferraris? I think it is the former as there is history between the drivers. The only reason you don’t like personalities in F1 is because you support MS who has no personality.